A temper tantrum?

[Robert]

It is amazing to me what inventions some people can come up with to try to avoid something they don't want to comply with.

What a legalistic statement! Go to Gal 5:1

"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."

What does Paul mean by "a yoke of slavery"? The KJV says, "yoke of bondage".

Go to Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Note that these men were insisting on circumcision in return for heaven. Drop down to verse 5:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses.'”

Now these legalists added "the Law of Moses" to circumcision. What is the Law of Moses? The first, five books of the OT.

How did the disciples respond?

Verse 10: "why do you [i.e., you legalists] try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? [They are referring to the OC] 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

So Paul's "yoke of bondage" in Gal chapter 5 is referring to the demands of "the book of the law", which also houses the moral law.

Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision [as required by those in Acts chapter 15], Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law . 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

So Gerry, if you come to me and say you must keep the moral law and pay tithe, you are placing a yoke on my neck that I will reject.

And what's nice about your demands is that makes you obligated to "keep the whole law".

Matt 7:1 ”Do not judge lest you be judged. 2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Robert

[Robert]

I don't know which of my posts you find harshly judgmental. And this is not 1879.

Gerry

Let me help you:

"It is amazing to me what inventions some people can come up with to try to avoid something they don't want to comply with."

[Woody]

Quote:

I don't know which of my posts you find harshly judgmental. And this is not 1879.

Do you use this excuse for not following ALL of Ellen White's council? OR ... Just on Tithe?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I don't know which of my posts you find harshly judgmental. And this is not 1879.

Gerry

Let me help you:

"It is amazing to me what inventions some people can come up with to try to avoid something they don't want to comply with."

Was it me who said:[color:red]"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse...." Mal 3:8-10. "For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Eph 5:5 NKJ Was that being harsh on God's part?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

I don't know which of my posts you find harshly judgmental. And this is not 1879.

Do you use this excuse for not following ALL of Ellen White's council? OR ... Just on Tithe?

And which council is that? The Council held in Battle Creek? Council held in Washington D.C?

Gerry

[Woody]

Should we totally dismiss the example of Ellen White on tithe? OR ... Which example should we follow?

[Gerr]

Are you equating circumcision with murder? Adultery? Idolatry?

Is it legalism to say, unless you stop murdering, fornicating, bowing to idols, you cannot be saved?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Should we totally dismiss the example of Ellen White on tithe? OR ... Which example should we follow?

When in doubt, my friend, follow what the Bible says. And it says, "Bring all the tithes...."

Gerry

[Woody]

I have NO doubt on the subject.

[Woody]

Are you equating circumcision with murder? Adultery? Idolatry?

Is it legalism to say, unless you stop murdering, fornicating, bowing to idols, you cannot be saved?

Gerry

The curse of the Law requires 100% obedience. So ... you must have the victory of Christ as He had on this earth to your account. That is the only thing that will save you. So ... Sin is Sin. No matter what sin you list ... you must have victory as Jesus had victory.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Should we totally dismiss the example of Ellen White on tithe? OR ... Which example should we follow?

When in doubt, my friend, follow what the Bible says. And it says, "Bring all the tithes...."

Gerry

Should we only go to read Ellen White when we have doubt. Doubt seems quite subjective.

[Robert]

Was it me who said:"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.

[Robert]

Are you equating circumcision with murder? Adultery? Idolatry?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Should we totally dismiss the example of Ellen White on tithe? OR ... Which example should we follow?

When in doubt, my friend, follow what the Bible says.

Gerry

1] For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

This leads to:

2] "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Okay Gerry...follow your own advice.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Quote:

Is it legalism to say, unless you stop murdering, fornicating, bowing to idols, you cannot be saved?

Yes...that's old covenant. If you make these a condition of heaven, you must make the whole law a condition. That includes your bent to self....This doesn't deny growth, it just stops people like you from getting all self-righteous.

Is it your understanding then that the New Covenant is: you can keep on murdering, fornicating, bowing to idols and you will be saved?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Should we totally dismiss the example of Ellen White on tithe? OR ... Which example should we follow?

Follow the Bible. It says: Bring all the tithes....

Gerry

[Gerr]

If a truth stated in the OT is not re-stated in the NT, does that make it null & void? Would it not be more logical to assume that what was stated as truth is still true?

Do we do away with the law not moving boundary lines because it is not expressly reiterated in the new?

It is amazing to me what inventions some people can come up with to try to avoid something they don't want to comply with.

It could simply be that the law has been superceeded. The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant! Giving was no longer mandated in percentage terms but as a heart reponse to the Spirit.

I guess you could see it as an attempt to avoid something if you want to.

The fourth commandment requires 1/7th of our time. By your reasoning, if my heart says one hour, that should be sufficient, right?

Gerry

[Stan]

FWIW the EGW comment on her Tithe was a short lived experience.

It is because of this structure, that between 20-30,000 people where baptized to day, as they are on the average every Sabbath.

AND about 100 new companies or Churches met for the very first time. ( I think it is about 40 Churches and 60 companies but could be wrong)

I doubt if that would happen if we were not lead to the system we have today.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If a truth stated in the OT is not re-stated in the NT, does that make it null & void? Gerry

What is the sum of the moral law?

1] Love to God expressed in faith

2] Love to mankind.

The first four have to do with our relationship to God.

The last six have to do with our relationship to mankind.

Okay, now go to the 8th commandment. What does it state?

“You shall not steal."

From whom? Your neighbor. How so? Because the last six commandments have to do with our relationship to our neighbors - not God.

Hence, the command "do not steal" applies to our neighbors and not God.

Rob, you made me smile on that one. Sounds like Corban reasoning to me. I suppose Adam & Eve were not guilty of stealing what God said not to take from?

Like I said, it's amazing what inventions people come up with to avoid something they dim unpleasant task. Just like our Protestant brethren, most of them know the Sabbath is Saturday, but they have invented all kinds of reasons to avoid keeping it.

Gerry

[Robert]

Is it your understanding then that the New Covenant is: you can keep on murdering, fornicating, bowing to idols and you will be saved?

Gerry, why just name 3 sins? There's many more....

Love is the fulfilling of the law and true love is not self-seeking. You keep forgetting that one, huh?

Under the NC you have heaven full and complete "in Jesus Christ". In return God writes the principle of the law in your mind/heart. Even this doesn't happen over night because our understanding of sin grows as we look at the life of Christ. The problem is that the converted mind and the law of sin in our members (our bent to self) are incompatible. So we struggle, but in the Christian's mind he will never say "sinning" is okay. The fact is the best of us have sins of repetition...sins we are beset by.

Rob

[Robert]

Like I said, it's amazing what inventions people come up with to avoid something they dim unpleasant task.

Gerry

You didn't answer my question!

[Taylor]

We can never earn our salvation. Keeping Sabbath or not murdering someone has nothing to do with earning salvation. It is the result of loving God so much that we want to do what he has asked. The Sabbath is a special time to meet with God, even more special than any other time, like a birthday celebration or a "date" with God. It is possible to keep the Sabbath, pay tithe, believe that when people die they rest in the grave till Jesus comes and be grace filled. Grace is not liscence for disregarding what God has asked or taught. Grace is unmerited favor. None of us deserve salvation no matter how "saintly" or "perfectly" we obey or disobey. If you love me, Jesus says, keep my commandments. This isn't so we can be saved, but it is the result of a love relationship.

My 2 cents.

[Robert]

If you love me, Jesus says, keep my commandments. This isn't so we can be saved, but it is the result of a love relationship.

My 2 cents.

The thing is that the principle of "sin" put Jesus on the cross. That's why the Christian should hate "sin" because of what it did to Jesus not because someone demands obedience to rules written in stone. Love changes people, not demands and threats.

Rob

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you equating circumcision with murder? Adultery? Idolatry?

Is it legalism to say, unless you stop murdering, fornicating, bowing to idols, you cannot be saved?

Gerry

The curse of the Law requires 100% obedience. So ... you must have the victory of Christ as He had on this earth to your account. That is the only thing that will save you. So ... Sin is Sin. No matter what sin you list ... you must have victory as Jesus had victory.

The only victory I've found is in knowing that I'm Forgiven, even if I do make mistakes, and trusting that God will warn me if some thing I could do is wrong, and offers me Protection from temptation, if I want it. I'm still free to choose to sin, but I'm also free to come back to Him when I realize the severity of what I've done and that I don't want to do it anymore. It's about having a Real Relationship with Him that doesn't end or change even if I make mistakes along the way. It's not about deciding "this or that is a sin, I have to try with all my might to avoid it." It's about giving God your heart and then following your heart, because it's His. It's about learning to Trust in His Power alone.

As far as what will save me and what won't, I'm already Saved because the Price has been Paid, and I've Accepted God's Promises to Love, Guide, and Protect me, and to always be with me. My commitments are easily broken: His never are. That's why I'm still Saved, even though I make mistakes. The Blood of the Lamb is Powerful enough even to cover me in my own imperfection. My Salvation can never come from my doing what's right all the time. I'm Seen by God as never having done anything wrong, and I'm always Accepted, therefore, through His continual Forgiveness, I'm "Sanctified" (I hope that's the correct use of the word, my vocab's a bit rusty), meaning that I'm not condemned anymore.

The condemnation (the wage of sin, death) of the law (trying to keep it under my own power), is what was done away with - right along with all my good works that I did to try to earn/keep my Salvation under my own power. Those works are as filthy rags. Only Jesus is Perfect, and my Salvation rests on Him and His Blood spilt for me alone. And it's already been done/accomplished. He meant it when He said "It is finished." It really is: the case is closed - I'm Saved, I Love my Salvation, I wouldn't give it up for the world, and anyone who really Knows what it's like to be Saved could probably attest to the same thing.

Can I give up my Salvation by sinning again? I'm not capable of being Seen by God as a condemned sinner anymore, (unless I tell Him I want Him to, that I no longer want Salvation, which would be silly): He only Sees me as an accident prone Kid who doesn't always get it right, but who Trusts in His Forgiveness, and knows that she's Loved no matter what. So, I'm not afraid of losing my Salvation. I've been set free from running around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to be all holy and perfect all the time. As I said in another post, I'm done with that. That doesn't mean I go around intentionally trying to sin! It just means that all the hell-fire/damnation speeches in the world can't really scare me: I know Who my Savior is, and it will Always be that Way (Matthew 28:20).

[Taylor]

In my understanding God doesn't doesn't usually keep us from temptation but provides a way of escape when we are tempted. He can give us victory over sin. All our "victory" however can't save us, but gaining victory is called "growth" in our Christian walk. A baby is a wonderfully cute precious human being, but if you saw an adult who babbeled like a baby, sucked their thumb and crawled around we would no longer thing it was so cute. That doesn't mean there was condemnation on the baby. It means that as the baby grows he quitts things like babbeling and starts to talk, he stops needing a bottle and can eat solid food, he begins to toddle and eventually run all over the place. We applaud those changes in a baby. Well the spiritual walk with God is much the same. We want to grow in grace, to learn more of what he has for our lives, to gain victory over previous sins because they make us and those around us miserable. For instance, if an alcoholic becomes a christian and still drinks and beats his wife and kids the wife and kids would definately wish that he would gain the victory over his alcohol. That he would become that involved parent, that loving spouse. That doesn't mean that if he died the minute after he accepted Christ he wouldn't be saved. It simply means that out of gratitude for the great love he has found in Jesus, he wants to demonstrate that love to his family, and drinking doesn't demonstrate love to his family so with God's help he overcomes that habbit. God loves us just the way we are but he loves us too much to leave us there. He helps us to live changed lives. This doesn't mean we will never sin, or that we will never have room to grow. That is what so amazing about grace. He loves us despite our problems. But God is also all powerful and there is nothing he can't do in our lives if we let him.