A temper tantrum?

[olger]

Thanks for noticing. I notice that you haven't answered my question yet.

When you stated that you were uncomfortable with a conference president's "brand of Adventism", I ask this question (not to attack, but to learn).

Restated for you: Would you be willing to tell me what your brand of Adventism is? Thanks in advance,

olger

[Woody]

If you read my posts ... you will find out.

But we need to keep this on topic. If you have personal needs you can send a PM.

[olger]

We have three bathrooms for personal needs.

olger

[Taylor]

Olger..I assume that was said as a humerous statement?

Otherwise, was it necessary? I think Redwood was just trying to stay on topic and maybe didn't want to put his views out there any more at the moment. Of course I am not Redwood so I am not sure but that was my take.

[olger]

Overtly humorous.

How does one turn on the smiley things? They don't seem to be available on posts, however they are on edits?

All the best,

olger

[Taylor]

Thanks Olger. I thought it was probably meant to be humorous given the fact that you seem to usually want to be a peace maker. I was just curious. BTW I wasn't trying to attack you either, just asking.

[Jeannieb43]

The All Nations church in Berrien Springs may not have the support of the Michigan Conference for its racial diversity; I don't know anything about that church. However, the Andrews University church certainly has racial diversity. It's a regular United Nations there. Very satisfying. A true picture of what heaven will be like.

Incidentally, Roy Adams was the first choice of the Board, or the Committee, or whatever group had the duty of choosing a new editor for the Review after Bill Johnsson's retirement. But when it was submitted to Jan Paulson, he sent it back, asking for them to nominate Knott. Evidently he anticipated some problems from the world field if Roy Adams were to be appointed Editor in Chief. This all comes from an article in Spectrum by Andy Nash, one of the former Assistant Editors at the Review in the 1990s. He lists the personal qualities of Roy Adams as much more well suited to management of the editorial duties than Knott; in addition, Roy Adams has many more years' experience than any of the other candidates.

[lazarus]

Jeannie:

What problems in the world field did Paulson see coming?

[lazarus]

Opportunity Lost: Why Adams Should Have Been Review Editor

By Andy Nash

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/onlinecommunity/featuredcolumns/061013nash.html

(October 13, 2006)

One of the problems with the official church press is that, when a major meeting doesn’t get reported objectively (and it often doesn’t), people are left with rumors and mistaken impressions.

One of the mistaken impressions that people might be getting from the recent Annual Council gathering of Adventist Church leadership is this: Many delegates thought Roy Adams should have been nominated editor-in-chief of the Adventist Review because he’s black. That’s simply incorrect. The delegates who made speeches weren’t arguing that Adams be nominated because he’s black. They were questioning why someone so well qualified wasn’t nominated.

It’s a valid question and one that I share. Having worked at this magazine, with this staff, I can provide a number of reasons why Adams should have been the clear-cut choice.

For starters, he’s been the senior associate editor, and a highly effective one, since 1988. He’s served the Adventist Church not only in the United States but also in Canada and the Philippines—and as an immensely gifted speaker, he travels widely. He’s had his doctorate since the early eighties and has written a number of books and hundreds of articles. He’s a centrist—doesn’t try to cater to any party of the Church, doesn’t try to block voices (or letters) that don’t agree with his own. He has tremendous leadership skills, and he lives by a code. He runs an efficient meeting, his work is always excellent, and he submits it on time.

But perhaps the most important thing about Adams is the gracious way he treats people. This isn’t the corporate world; this is the church—the body of Christ; it ought to matter how our leaders treat people. I can’t think of anyone who treats people with more dignity than Adams does. He isn’t political—isn’t constantly trying to position himself, doesn’t "kiss up and kick down." He treats everyone with respect, whether above him or below him. There were times when I saw an issue differently than Adams did. But I never felt demeaned by Adams, and I never saw him demean other staff members or production staff at the publishing house.

Although I personally respect President Jan Paulsen and other church leaders, it’s difficult for many of us to understand the dynamics of what happened here. Even after the world church’s Spring Meeting in April, when the delegation voted to send back Bill Knott’s name and specifically requested that Adams be considered, Paulsen returned six months later with only one name, Knott’s, and the choice of a yes or no

The fact that Adams would have been the first black editor in the Review’s 157-year history would have been a bonus—an important first for a church that’s never been on the leading edge of racial unity.

I was proud to work in the company of Roy Adams, and I always pictured him succeeding the equally graceful William Johnsson as editor-in-chief. I know many others did as well. It’s no doubt a very hard and painful experience to be passed over like this, but at least Adams can know that many others care for him, as he did for others.

[there buster]

I have only positive things to say about Roy Adams in my dealings with him. When he didn't get the post, I asked friends who are conversant with these issues why.

The answer I got is that Adams is about the same age as Johnsson, and that there was a desire to have an editor who would be able to keep the post for 20-25 years. Bill Knott was 49 when he took over.

Valid or not, it is at least consistent with previous practice. F.D. Nichol was editor for 21 yrs, Kenneth Wood for 17, and William Johnsson held the position for 24 yrs, an average of just over 20yrs each.

[Jeannieb43]

The answer I got is that Adams is about the same age as Johnsson, and that there was a desire to have an editor who would be able to keep the post for 20-25 years. Bill Knott was 49 when he took over.

Valid or not, it is at least consistent with previous practice. F.D. Nichol was editor for 21 yrs, Kenneth Wood for 17, and William Johnsson held the position for 24 yrs, an average of just over 20yrs each.

I agree. However, I'd be willing to wager that F. D. Nichol was every bit as old or older when he became editor as Roy Adams is now. I was a teenager in Takoma Park when F. D. Nichol served as president of the local chapter of Pacific Union College alumni, which met monthly on the lawn between the GC Bldg and the Review. My parents were faithful PUC alumni and friends of FDN. But he was clearly a generation older than my parents.

[Jeannieb43]

Jeannie:

What problems in the world field did Paulson see coming?

That statement was clearly a projection on my part. The sum total of my information is contained in the article by Andy Nash which you have posted here. I just figured since Paulsen has to face the varying worship practices of the various world fields, perhaps he would have worried about how the change would be perceived [e.g., the issue of women's ordination]. That topic was the only thing on my mind at the time.

[there buster]

Nichol was 47 when he became editor of the Review, and died before his 70th birthday.

[Jeannieb43]

Amazing! Thanks for researching that bit for me, Ed.

SO.... This means that

l) Men with white hair always LOOK old! (at least to teenagers...);

2) FDN clearly WAS in the generation ahead of my parents (who were in their forties when we lived in D.C. during WWII); and

3) The age of 70 gets younger and younger every year!

[olger]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Jeannie:

What problems in the world field did Paulson see coming?

That statement was clearly a projection on my part. The sum total of my information is contained in the article by Andy Nash which you have posted here. I just figured since Paulsen has to face the varying worship practices of the various world fields, perhaps he would have worried about how the change would be perceived [e.g., the issue of women's ordination]. That topic was the only thing on my mind at the time.

What does WO have to do with Roy Adams??

Thanks,

olger

[Jeannieb43]

Women's ordination seems to be more of a cultural issue than a theological issue. From what I've read, the NAD apparently would be willing to support women's ordination. However, the other parts of the world, where the culture inhibits women from holding public office, etc., are less inclined to believe women are capable of leadership positions in the church.

I cited this only as an example of what the president of our world church has to deal with, in keeping peace within the worldwide organization.

[lazarus]

Women's ordination seems to be more of a cultural issue than a theological issue. From what I've read, the NAD apparently would be willing to support women's ordination. However, the other parts of the world, where the culture inhibits women from holding public office, etc., are less inclined to believe women are capable of leadership positions in the church.

......women are already being ordained in the NAD its just that its being called comissioning. They function as ordained pastors already. They can do, in practice, all the things that I can do as an ordained minister.

I surprised that the opponents of ordination don't realise that the battle has been lost already.

But whats the issue that would affect the world-wide church that would come from Adams as editor.

[Woody]

Quote:

I surprised that the opponents of ordination don't realise that the battle has been lost already.

Only in a few isolated places in the world. In the majority of the world ... the battle has been won by them.

[lazarus]

Well I don't think there should be any "mission accomplished" celebrations because I think the insurgency is well established.

[Woody]

Gender Discrimination is alive and well Laz. Let's not diminish the Gender struggle that is going on. This Gender has suffered greatly and continues to suffer ... as do all of us because of this discrimination. When we realize the strength in diversity ... we will be blessed.

[Jeannieb43]

And among the >13 mil. members of the worldwide church, the piddling <1 mil. NAD members don't control major decisions any longer.

Other cultural norms now prevail.

[David Koot]

And among the >13 mil. members of the worldwide church, the piddling <1 mil. NAD members don't control major decisions any longer.

And that just might not be a bad thing. My perception is that many of the churches in the NAD have become rather worldly. Along with that comes a weapon often used by worldly types, "Money talks." But I trust there are enough people with backbone and integrity in the church leadership, who will not countenance such tactics.

Dave

[Anthony!]

There is a simple solution.

Stop funding the central organization. Stop giving them power. They have nothing that SDA congregations don't voluntarily give them - and they will instantly respond or vanish when the funding is cut.

Moan all you like. While you are still sending them money, nothing will change.

/Bevin

Thanks, bevin, That would put my wife out of a job and erase her coming retirement pension after 20+ years of dedicated service. Real compassionate.

[Woody]

Quote:

churches in the NAD have become rather worldly

Aren't we all. I was wondering it you could name a church that is not worldly in this world. I would like to know ... so that i could join it. But then it wouldn't be unworldly anymore. So ... maybe you shouldn't tell me after all.

[Anthony!]

When I was a member of the SDA church, I paid my tithe into specific local-church projects. Places where I had control over it, so I could be sure it wasn't being wasted...

on satellite dish systems that cost $10,000 when it was clear that two years later they would cost < $1,000

on buying worthless tracts that never got anyone into church

on pyramid schemes involving post-offices

on lawyers to defend the church's discriminatory pay practises

etc etc etc

The early Christian church did not have a huge central organization controlling the spending of money

The early SDA church did not have a huge central organization controlling the spending of money

and many Protestant denominations don't

- and strangely they did not descend into any worse chaos than the SDA church is in right now

/Bevin

How could the Lord bless when you took His tithe and misappropriated it? It can only be blessed when it is used for the payment of ministry...