A temper tantrum?

[Woody]

Quote:

How could the Lord bless when you took His tithe and misappropriated it?

What gives you the authority to tell him where to pay his tithe. I can't find anywhere in the Bible that it has to be returned to the SDA church.

[Bravus]

so what you're (Anthony) saying is it's OK for the organisation to 'misappropriate' it but not the individual?

[Woody]

Good Point Bravus.

And as we know ... Ellen White did not always trust the SDA organization. She withheld HER tithe and accepted the tithe of others and put it to good use outside of the SDA organization.

So ... is Anthony critical of what Ellen White did?

OR is he being selectively critical of Bevin?

[Nan]

And as we know ... Ellen White did not always trust the SDA organization. She withheld HER tithe and accepted the tithe of others and put it to good use outside of the SDA organization...

Do you have the reference for this statement RW? I am not being critical - I just would like to know. Thanks.

[Woody]

Nan ... Yes. I do have some of the references. I will have to look them up and get back with you when I can.

As I recall she took tithe money for both the poor Blacks in the South and also for women who were ministering but could not get GC support. I can not be certain of those specific directions for her tithe but I do know she used her own tithe and the tithe of others.

And no offense taken. I am glad to look it up for you.

[Anthony!]

First, we need to define the tithe (there may be some on Club Adventist not familiar with this) so may I please refer you to the word of God. It is His word, not mine. These are His requirements, not those which I have established.

1) Psalm 24:1 - God owns everything.

2) Deuteronomy 8:18 - All wealth comes from God.

3) Matthew 25:14 - We are stewards of the Lord's goods.

4) Leviticus 27:32 - All substance divided into ten parts, one- tenth kept by God.

5) Leviticus 27:30 - It is holy, it does not belong to

man.

6) Malachi 3:8 - He who uses the tithe for himself, robs God.

7) Leviticus 27:31 - If used, "add the fifth part thereof."

8) Leviticus 27:33 - An honest tithe is one-tenth.

9) Joel 2:17 - The priest and those that ministered about holy things were the Lord's servants.

10) Numbers 18:20-24 - The Lord supported them with the tithe.

11) Acts 13:2-4 - The Lord selects His own workers now as anciently.

12) 1 Corinthians 9:8-13 - Those who work in spiritual lines are supported by material things.

13) 1 Corinthians 9:14 - As the priests in the temple were supported by the tithe, "even so, hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." - Acts Of The Apostles pp. 335-337.

14) Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 - Christ said we ought to pay tithe.

15) Genesis 14:17-24 - Abraham paid tithe (before time of the law of Moses) to Melchisedec. - See Patriarchs And Prophets p. 525.

16) Hebrews 7:1-6 - We serve under the same priesthood.

17) Galatians 3:7-9, 26-29 - Christ's followers pay tithe.

18) Numbers 18:26-28 - Ministers should pay tithe.

19) Malachi 3:10 - Tithe is brought to the storehouse. - See Acts Of The Apostles pp. 399-403.

20) Malachi 3:10-12; Proverbs 10:22 - The honest tithe payer is blessed.

"The tithe is sacred, reserved by God for Himself. It is to be brought into His treasury to be used to sustain the gospel laborers in their work. For a long time the Lord has been robbed because there are those who do not realize that the tithe is God's reserved portion. {9T 249.1}

"Some have been dissatisfied and have said: "I will not longer pay my tithe; for I have no confidence in the way things are managed at the heart of the work." But will you rob God because you think the management of the work is not right? Make your complaint, plainly and openly, in the right spirit, to the proper ones. Send in your petitions for things to be adjusted and set in order; but do not withdraw from the work of God, and prove unfaithful, because others are not doing right. {9T 249.2}

"Read carefully the third chapter of Malachi and see what God says about the tithe. If our churches will take their stand upon the Lord's word and be faithful in paying their tithe into His treasury, more laborers will be encouraged to take up ministerial work. More men would give themselves to the ministry were they not told of the depleted treasury. There should be an abundant supply in the Lord's treasury, and there would be if selfish hearts and hands had not withheld the tithes or made use of them to support other lines of work. {9T 249.3}

"God's reserved resources are to be used in no such haphazard way. The tithe is the Lord's, and those who

(p. 250)

meddle with it will be punished with the loss of their heavenly treasure unless they repent. Let the work no longer be hedged up because the tithe has been diverted into various channels other than the one to which the Lord has said it should go. Provision is to be made for these other lines of work. They are to be sustained, but not from the tithe. God has not changed; the tithe is still to be used for the support of the ministry. The opening of new fields requires more ministerial efficiency than we now have, and there must be means in the treasury." {9T 249.4}

- Ellen White, Testimonies For The Church vol. 9, pp. 249-250

[Jeannieb43]

That's an excellent Bible study on the tithe, Anthony. I appreciate having it here to refer to.

Without Ellen White, however, there is no solely Scriptural basis for determininig "the storehouse" as being the church/conference, or for determining how many of the denominational employees are to be paid with actual tithe money.

In other words, our organization has become top-heavy. Under present rules (as I understand them), the office secretaries and janitors in the conference offices are paid with tithe money, but local churches are not allowed to pay their secretaries or janitors with tithe money.

The principle of paying tithe is God-given.

But in actual practice, many who are less-than-inspired are devising the rules. [--for how much is needed to run the organization]

I don't have an answer to this conundrum. I pay my tithe totally to my church in the appropriately marked envelope. But with those who use some of their tithe funds for Maranatha projects, for example, I have no quarrel.

[Bravus]

I think there are a couple of related points here:

1. Virtually all of those Bible texts and most of the EGW ones are about paying less than 10%, not about where it is paid to. They're about saying "things are being done so I'll pay less", not about "things are being done wrong so I'll pay differently".

2. As Jeannie has pointed out, there's no scriptural basis for assigning a 1:1 correspondence between 'God's warehouse' and 'the organised Seventh-day Adventist church'. Most of the authority for that doctrine comes from... the organised Seventh-day Adventist church.

[Bravus]

Anyway, we seem to have wandered far from the original thread topic. It does worry me if someone pointing out the disparities in our denomination's leadership representation is painted as a 'temper tantrum'. That seems like dismissing it through ridicule or labelling, rather than being willing to take on the arguments on their own merits. Is the representation fair? If not, why not? Does God have a disproportionate liking for white males of a certain age?

[Anthony!]

That's an excellent Bible study on the tithe, Anthony. I appreciate having it here to refer to.

Without Ellen White, however, there is no solely Scriptural basis for determininig "the storehouse" as being the church/conference, or for determining how many of the denominational employees are to be paid with actual tithe money.

[Anthony!]

I think there are a couple of related points here:

1. Virtually all of those Bible texts and most of the EGW ones are about paying less than 10%, not about where it is paid to. They're about saying "things are being done so I'll pay less", not about "things are being done wrong so I'll pay differently".

Bravus, please re-examine the following as a response to your challenge:

"God's reserved resources are to be used in no such haphazard way. The tithe is the Lord's, and those who

(p. 250)

meddle with it will be punished with the loss of their heavenly treasure unless they repent. Let the work no longer be hedged up because the tithe has been diverted into various channels other than the one to which the Lord has said it should go. Provision is to be made for these other lines of work. They are to be sustained, but not from the tithe. God has not changed; the tithe is still to be used for the support of the ministry. The opening of new fields requires more ministerial efficiency than we now have, and there must be means in the treasury." {9T 249.4}

- Ellen White, Testimonies For The Church vol. 9, pp. 249-250 (bold supplied)

Blessings!

[Woody]

I think there are a couple of related points here:

1. Virtually all of those Bible texts and most of the EGW ones are about paying less than 10%, not about where it is paid to. They're about saying "things are being done so I'll pay less", not about "things are being done wrong so I'll pay differently".

2. As Jeannie has pointed out, there's no scriptural basis for assigning a 1:1 correspondence between 'God's warehouse' and 'the organised Seventh-day Adventist church'. Most of the authority for that doctrine comes from... the organised Seventh-day Adventist church.

By the way Bravus ... Organized is spelled with a 'z' not an 's' according to Websters.

Just an inside joke people. Don't jump all over me. Bravus is a bog boy ... he can take it.

[Stan]

By the way Bravus ... Organized is spelled with a 'z' not an 's' according to Websters.

Just an inside joke people. Don't jump all over me. Bravus is a bog boy ... he can take it.

Actually there is only one primarily english speaking country that would spell it with a Z.. It is the same country that would sound a Z as if it was Zee... not Zed

[Woody]

Stan ... you are right. I figured this was coming. The Zed issue is an old and faithful controversy. And I should have known that everytime I pull out MY Dictionary ... that someone will tell me that it is wrong for some reason. Why is it that MY dictionary is always the wrong one to use?

I need to get myself a Hispanic Dictionary and an English English Dictionary. They are on my Christmas list but I will have to wait.

[David Koot]

Why is it that MY dictionary is always the wrong one to use?

Indeed. I fear that American English is an adulteration of the real McCoy. What can I say? But, even in the early decades of this country's existence, (yes, even after the Rebellion!) I believe 'organised' was spelled properly. Only later, no doubt as some byproduct of the 'Jacksonian revolution' and the 'spoils system', did the language become so boorish.

Dave

[Robert]

Also a huge factor was the decline in return of tithe and giving of conference budget offerings which occured in this time, which greatly affected unions and conferences.

Good!

Do not pay tithe to an organization that,

1] Teaches a perverted gospel.

2] Do not pay tithe to an organization that teaches not to do so will cost you eternal life.

Is the heavenly real-estate of Heaven for sale? Seems like Catholics do not have a monopoly on heavenly real-estate!

[Anthony!]

Originally Posted By: Anthony W Lewis

Also a huge factor was the decline in return of tithe and giving of conference budget offerings which occured in this time, which greatly affected unions and conferences.

Good!

Do not pay tithe to an organization that,

1] Teaches a perverted gospel.

2] Do not pay tithe to an organization that teaches not to do so will cost you eternal life.

Is the heavenly real-estate of Heaven for sale? Seems like Catholics do not have a monopoly on heavenly real-estate!

Oh, Robert! I am then so sorry to inform you of such sorry news - the return of tithe statistics from the General Conference of SDA Church shows the following increases in tithe return in the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church for the last 10 years.

1996 - US$ 928,621,785

1997 - US$ 969,942,919

1998 - US$ 994,144,335

1999 - US$ 1,029,257,377

2000 - US$ 1,093,239,507

2001 - US$ 1,120,268,583

2002 - US$ 1,161,698,944

2003 - US$ 1,234,346,993

2004 - US$ 1,333,482,562

2005 - US$ 1,492,720,001

(2006 statistics not processed yet)

You must be crushed...

[Nan]

Definitely without wishing to enter into the spirit of this debate, I think the following question needs to be answered

What are the US statistics? Have they increased ahead of inflation? The same question could be asked of the SPD as of the NAD. Increases in the world field returns may result from the increase in membership across the globe, that needs to be clarified before making any claims, IMO.

[Bravus]

I did say *most* of the EGW quotes. I acknowledge that she said what you quoted, and agree that if her words are definitive there's no further room for discussion on where the tithes go.

[lazarus]

We must also be aware that EGW sometimes diverted tithe and did not follow the rules she herself set. The usual explanation for this that she was especially direct by God to do so.

The GC is now and has been for a while, considering, major restructuring. Here's a couple of links.

http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/09/1129067537/index.html.en

http://www.adventist.org/world_church/commission-ministries-services-structures/

[Robert]

You must be crushed...

No, rather I am sad because I remember how tithing was presented to me: Pay or die!

There are two problems with this scare tactic:

1] It's old covenant!

2] It makes giving a requirement for heaven!

In a nutshell it makes the motive for giving wrong! Giving to get heaven and/or wealth are egocentric, sinful reasons. In other word, "giving to get is not giving".

I rest my case,

Robert

[Woody]

Quote:

It makes giving a requirement for heaven

Yes Robert ... Ellen White confirms this:

"Tithe - Test of Heavenly Fellowship" EV 251

But she also says that Faithfulness in Tithing is a condition to answered prayer. See COL 144

[Planey]

Bravus is a bog boy ... he can take it.

So is Geelan an Irish name then, Dave?

Graeme

[Woody]

I will have to refer to my Dictionary to determine what I meant by the word BOG. I know when I lived in Ireland we burned bog as firewood. I would cut it up in logs and stack it up to dry. Once dried the peat bog made a good fire. OH those were good days.

But referring to Bravus as a bog boy ... well ... I am just not sure what I meant. Bravus ... are you Irish? Help me out here.

[Robert]

Quote:

It makes giving a requirement for heaven

Yes Robert ... Ellen White confirms this:

"Tithe - Test of Heavenly Fellowship" EV 251

Here's the problem: Adventists especially use Malachi 3:8,9 to promote mandatory tithing. Here's the context:

"Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How are we robbing thee?’ In your tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me; the whole nation of you."

If you look a bit further you will see that this requirement is linked with the Old Covenant:

"Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances." [Malachi 4:4]

Okay, I see two links so far to the Old Covenant:

1] "You are cursed with a curse" and

2] Remember, or keep "the law of Moses...which I commanded....for all Israel"

Now turn to Galatians chapter three:

"For as many as are of the works of the Law [salvation by law] are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law [the law of Moses], to perform them.'"

Verse 11: "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'The just by faith shall live.'"

So when an Adventist tells me that I better pay tithe or I am cursed with a curse, I'll tell him what Paul told the legalistic Galatians who were, among other laws, pushing circumcision:

"I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a method for salvation - see Acts 15:1,5], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You [i.e., you who are pushing certain rules] have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." [Gal 5:3,4]

In other words Paul is saying that if someone makes one rule a condition for heaven, then he himself must keep all the rules - and perfectly at that!

The issue here is that no man has a right to compel another man's conscience. I will never accept anything that smacks of legalism and scare tactics. Why? Wrong motive!!! Besides, who are we kidding, God can read the heart. He knows if a believer is doing some deed as “a fair show in the flesh” (see Gal 6:12) or out of genuine love and conviction.

Robert