A temper tantrum?

[Woody]

Quote:

The only victory I've found is in knowing that I'm Forgiven

Praise the Lord ... you are forgiven. That is the gift that is waiting for all. It is only through the Robe of His Righteousness that we are saved. His life in the Place of ours is the only way to satisy the curse of the Law which requires perfect obedience. The perfect life of Christ.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The only victory I've found is in knowing that I'm Forgiven, even if I do make mistakes,

"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, OR ELSE I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place -- unless you repent.......To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life..." Rev 2:4-7 NKJ. Victory over what?

"But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel.....Repent, or elose I will come to you quickly....To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat." Rev 2:14-17 NKJ. Victorious over what?

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols....And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end...." 2:20 & 26, NKJ. Victorious over what?

"You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead............He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments...." 3:1,5. Victorious over what?

"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot....wretchewd, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. .........To him who overcomes..." 3:15-21. Victorious over what?

Gerry

[Woody]

Do you have this interpretation of victory? I am with ChildofGod. I think the victory of forgiveness is much sweeter.

[Taylor]

Forgiveness is sweet, but we also can't negate God's power in our lives. He can and will change us if we let him. Does that equal perfection so we are equal to God, no. But christianity should indeed make a difference in our lives for the better, shouldn't it?

Overcoming is also very sweet. We are so grateful to God for helping us kick the habbits in our lives which have caused us so much pain that we are not only grateful for forgiveness but for victory and not having to deal with some of the issues we have had to deal with in the past.

I have known people who had a terrible temper. They cuss and swore, screamed and yelled, smacked their kids into next century, were always getting in fights at work. But then they met Jesus. That Mt. Vesuvius that they had inside of themselves of rage is tempered. With God's help they learn to deal with what has given them this rage. They learn to become gentle and kind. That victory is so sweet, not only to them but to their family. Sure they knew they were forgiven as soon as they met Jesus, but to be able to gain the victory from abuse to kindness is such an incredible thing. Yes, God does expect us to grow in grace and what a priviledge it is that he would be so concerned about us as to help us gain victory after he has forgiven us.

[Woody]

Quote:

Overcoming is also very sweet. We are so grateful to God for helping us kick the habbits in our lives which have caused us so much pain that we are not only grateful for forgiveness but for victory

Taylor .... you are right that overcoming is also sweet. I have had some victories in my life that I praise God for. But when someone is saying that they have not had the victories that they want ... the victory of forgiveness is perhaps the one they need to focus on. The last thing they need to be told is that they need more victory in good works. IF we dwell on the victory of forgiveness then the good works will come naturally and without condemnation. Telling people that their works need to improve is not the approach that I feel is best. Telling them of the love and forgivenss of God .... WILL bring out victory of behavior but it will be different with each of us. So none should judge.

"His character will be reproduced in our nature, this shall we bring forth fruits of the Holy Spirit - some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred" COL 60

There is no fruit that we as Christians can sit back and say to another ... " see you are lacking ". I would even apply this to the good works of observing the Sabbath. Some may show the fruit of Sabbath keeping and some may not. But they are still Christians growing in Christ.

We ALL FALL short.

[olger]

There are many people who want God to just keep taking their yesterdays, but don't wish to be bothered with His tomorrows.

The gospel comes with both yesterdays & tomorrows. Jesus takes our burden of sin from us and we have no past. Then He gives us His tomorrows.

all the best,

`G

[Woody]

Quote:

There are many people who want God to just keep taking their yesterdays, but don't wish to be bothered with His tomorrows.

Personally I will let GOD be the judge of that. I will keep pointing them to forgiveness as the answer rather than works.If the forgiveness doesn't naturally bring works then that is God's business to deal with and judge. On the other hand ... Pointing them to good works I know ... will not be the answer.

[Taylor]

But Sabbath keeping or whatever in my book isn't "good works". True it isn't "bad works" either. It is a part of God's law which he has set up and says that he wants to have a date with us on that day...a special time to spend with him. To me appropriate activities are ones then that bring you closer to God on that day.

To me good works are things such as giving to the poor, helping your neighbor etc.

[olger]

Must obedience die, that grace might live?

:)

[Woody]

Must obedience die, that grace might live?

I don't know how to say this with an understanding of grace towards you Olger ... but the answer is that not all of us are as advanced in the Christian walk as you and I. And I say this only with kindness. But, YES for some at their walk ... where they are in their PERSONAL walk .... the answer is YES. For some obdeience has been so shoved in their face that they need obedience to die that Grace may abound.

This is a babe in Christ. Yes ... over time we will all arrive at the place where you are and obedience will not have to die. Personally for me ... I am with you. I do not have to have obedience die for grace to live. I am with you. But I also have a great burden for those who are not where I am at. I feel so sorry for those who keep having obedience shoved down their throats to the point where they can not feel or see any grace.

Please let's accept each where they are at. And not shove obedience down their throats. Obedience will come but it must come naturally by the Grace of God through the individual workings of the Holy Spirit.

It is not for us to sit in judgment of anothers works.

[there buster]

Obedience itself is a gift of grace.

When one understands what a saving relationship actually means, then 'obedience' takes on a whole new aspect.

Those who receive salvation as a gift will come to obey, but those who obey to be saved will not receive grace. Obedience, evidence of sanctification comes after justification, after being saved.

[Woody]

Good Point Ed.

My concern is the impact of the judgment hungry SDAs that hurt those young babes that do not know ALL about Christianity yet. And they end up rejecting it because some SDAs think they should be further along in their works and knowledge.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Phil 3:13 ...I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

If "forgetting ... and reaching forth" is the one 'fundamental' thing St Paul does, perhaps "forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth..." is overcoming -- unto "apprehension".

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Must obedience die, that grace might live?

Obedience is to the Law of Love. Love would be nothing without Forgiveness.

There are some laws of life that do apply. And yet there is Grace. Grace doesn't turn a "no" into a "yes." It doesn't change the rules, or void them. It changes the existence of the consequences of breaking them: it gives us a reason to bother trying at all:

Imagine what would happen if a 4 year old was punished every time they colored outside the lines! Eventually, they might grow up to be very well behaved... But they would be afraid to pick up anything artistic ever again. In other words, if we're all going to hell for breaking the rules, and we're all sinners, we're not able to be perfect, then what's the point in trying? Now if you have a kid who's never told "you should stay within the lines" ok, they might grow up to be a great artist, but they would find it hard to focus on anything at all in any structured kind of way.

But if you take the same kid, and you let them make mistakes in coloring and then tell them "see, do it like this," well, they'll grow up to be a great artist (assuming they have that gift) and yet they'll be structured enough to be able to support themselves, probably on their art alone. The lines are always there. The rules always apply. But it's how people are treated when they break the rules that makes a difference in whether they grow to be normal, healthy, functioning and feeling adults or not. And of course, the rules that get broken also make a difference. In truth, I don't think that breaking the Sabbath is half as bad as killing another person. Because the person -died-. They won't necessarily be brought back to life before Jesus comes back. There's always another Sabbath next week. And there's always God, who Loves us anyway. And yet, for us as Adventists, more emphasis on study goes into not breaking the 4th commandment than I've ever seen going into not breaking the other 9 commandments.

I find it helpful to remember that I'm to become "like one of these children." Kids are often very rule oriented. Their games have rules, their habits have "rules" (constant quirks), etc. Yet they also need love and care and kindness. Anything else is just abuse. I don't want to serve a God, a Father, of abuse, who forces me to do things right all the time by emotionally beating the tar out of me.

And, to head off the "spare the rod and spoil the child argument" before that gets off the ground, I challenge those who believe in that line of thinking to look up "rod" in that verse in Strongs, and read it's Hebraic definition. There are two "sticks" that shepherds use when herding sheep. A staff and a rod. The staff is carried by the shepherd and held out in the correct direction to point the sheep to safety or greener pastures. It is never used to beat the sheep. The rod is never used on the sheep either: it's used to beat the tar out of the enemy, in this case, wolves, bears, and whatnot. If you beat a sheep, you'll kill it from fright. If you beat a kid, and I ever catch wind about it, you better believe you'll land in jail quicker than anything. And God feels the same way about both Guiding, Protecting, Loving, and always Being with His Sheep, His Kids.

That's the difference between discipline and punishment. Punishment doesn't do any good on the long term, and only causes fright (not trust) in the children. Discipline however not only deals with natural consequences (when that's safe), but also with calm and decent verbal guidance and a "let's do better next time" attitude. This forms trust between the children and parents, which enables the children to know that when mom and dad tell them to do something (or not to), it's because mom and dad want what's best for them, and aren't just angry, vindictive, abusive people who need an outlet for venting their frustrations in life. Everything else, again, is just anger-driven abuse, and such parents ought to be completely ashamed of themselves 100% of the time. And then brought to repentance and a "let's do better next time" attitude within themselves.

One note here: Ephesians 2:15,16. In the Greek, it's quite clear that the condemnation of the law was done away with. Not the law. The condemnation is the wage of sin: death. That's been done away with. The laws are still there, they haven't changed.

To me, that "let's do better next time" attitude is a great example of "Tschuvah" (a 180 degree turn away from sin and towards God). And believe me, that path is not easy. Not at all. It often does feel like punishment, yet because of Faith in God's Love and Forgiveness, I have the courage to keep moving forward in the right direction.

Also, this isn't about bad habits or outward bad actions. It's about the heart. It's about more than meets the eye. This is why Jesus took every outward sin that the Pharisees were so upset about and said "Look, you still sin, because in your hearts you want to sin, even though you don't let yourselves actually do the sins." (Paraphrase of too many parts of the NT to quote.) His point was this: the change is inward first, not outward first. (Something I wish more of us would remember more often.) And yet we are human, we make mistakes in the heart and outwardly, and God's ok with that as long as we Understand that we are in a Relationship with Him that can move forward. (Something I wish we'd tell new people as soon as they walk through our doors.)

Do I ever feel bad about mistakes I've made in the past? You know, I used to. Only a month ago, I found myself confessing to my brother, "But I still did those things... I feel really bad about them. How can I consider myself clean from all of that?" Yes, I've been Baptized. That wasn't the point. I simply felt dirty. But as he and I talked, I came to realize that Salvation is more than just "Ok, ok, you messed up in the past -- I'll let you into Heaven someday, but you'd better feel bad about what you did before..."

It's "What sin?"

Honestly, I'd hate to live in such a sterile environment that no one's allowed to make mistakes along the way. I know this might be outside the scope of Adventism in general, but really, I would like to suggest, for those who would, getting yourself a copy of the Star Trek Next Generation episode "Justice." I only say that here because it very, very clearly shows the principle I'm talking about here in the very well played out nuances of it. (It would be like watching a well-written play with weird actors wearing even weirder costumes.) The only way I can summarize it here is that in the Old Covenant, God required nit-picky obedience to the Nth degree because everyone was so utterly afraid of Him. He did that on purpose to show just how ludicrous that whole concept is.

In the New Covenant, God shows us every day that while the laws are good for us and for our own benefit, we'll never actually get it perfectly right every second of every day, and we're conceited beyond belief if we really think we can be perfect in our obedience to them. Instead, He shows us that while it's good for us to try, it's ok for us to not get it right every time in our own imperfect humanity, because He Loves and Forgives us and just wants to help us learn lessons from our mistakes and move forward in life. That's the only kind of Daddy I'm capable of really even Respecting, much less Loving.

In all of this, Justice and Mercy have Kissed, and I am one of the many Results of that Love. Seems to me that Redwood is yet another one who's been Won by that Love Halleluyah

And in the end, what in the world is even the point of being a Christian of any kind at all if we are threatened with death for making even the smallest of errors in judgment after we've been "Saved"??? That's not Loving, it's not Salvation, it's NOT Eternal Life, and it's NOT all the things I was Promised before I was even born... Now, I'm part Native American, so I feel I can say this if I want to: That's just "*Indian-Giving", and it's really, really dirty-ugly-filthy. That's not God.

*PS. Native Americans happen to be some of the most giving, loving, wonderful people on the planet, and I really do hate the phrase "Indian Giving" because of what it implies. Yet I don't know of a better pop-culture term to describe this concept of "You're only Saved as long as you do everything right all the time. You make one mistake, and oops, well, that's it: you ought to be burned in Hell someday. And oh, does that make you feel bad? Well, ok... I'll let you in... But... You can't mess up again. You have to be like God, just like the serpent tempted Eve to try being. Hahahahaha..."

[Woody]

Thank you ChildOfGod4Ever. Your testimony is a powerful witness.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

You're welcome, Redwood As is yours :D

[Gerr]

Do you have this interpretation of victory? I am with ChildofGod. I think the victory of forgiveness is much sweeter.

If you look at the references, you will see none of them are mine.

Gerry

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Do you have this interpretation of victory? I am with ChildofGod. I think the victory of forgiveness is much sweeter.

If you look at the references, you will see none of them are mine.

Gerry

I looked at the references and noted that they all come at the end of the story What is the story? Forgiveness, Redemption, and Restoration. I've never said, nor will I say, that it's ok to sin. All I'm saying is that God doesn't wish to fry me if I do make a mistake. It's assumed that there are people in the world who've intentionally sinned. Have you? Have I? Has anyone?

Honestly, even knowing that something nebulous such as "do not commit adultery" won't stop some college students from putting up near-porn like posters in our beloved Adventist college dorm rooms. It happens. I should know. I was there once upon a time, and my own RA had them up. Was she sinning? Technically, according to what Jesus says about adultery and the eyes... Did she realize she was sinning? Actually, no, she didn't. Does God's Grace cover her? Well, for corn's sake, if we're not to hold grudges, and let anger eat away at us Eternally, do you think God enjoys doing that? Does it help Him in some way to do that? I don't personally think so. Of course His Grace covers her! And chances are, one day when she wakes up and realizes it was a "sin," she'll either live in ongoing emotional hell for the rest of her life, thinking God doesn't Love her and she's condemned forever... Or she'll wake up to a greater truth: God Loves her, Forgave her, and it's ok - she can move on with life and "do better next time"...

The only reason God points out what we ought to be doing is for our own benefit It's not to make us feel so bad that we are completely discouraged from even bothering to try to keep His Commandments. I'm sorry that my Abba has been so poorly represented even in our own church. The damage done by that misrepresentation over the years is immense. And I'm ever so thankful that I've been Lead down a different Path, Together with Him

Why were those accusations "at the end of the story"? Well, they are at the end of the Bible. The story keeps on going long after the last page of Revelation was written. But the point is that those accusations were made as warnings and Guideposts. Even when Jonah condemned Ninivah, they said "Maybe if we clean up our act, God will have Mercy" (paraphrase). That's the effect that God was looking for on the body of Believers who had started straying from the truth (the Gospel of Forgiveness, not of human perfection).

See, when you live in a community of Forgiveness, you want to do all the things God was complaining that weren't being done. But when there's no Forgiveness around, you honestly just don't feel like it, so over time, you get lazy and you just kind of quit. God was really calling everyone back into The Truth: not of human works for the purpose of our trying to keep the law, but of Grace and Faith. And most importantly, Hope and Love, the greatest being Love.

[Gerr]

My friend, I most certainly believe in forgiveness. But the victory we are to have is not just forgiveness. The Bible is replete with things we are to have victory over.

"Through You we push back our enemies; through Your Name we trample our foes." Ps 44:5 NIV

"I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy..." Lk 10:19 NIV

"No, in all these things (v.35-trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword) we are more than conquerors THROUGH HIM who loved us." Rom 8:37

"For everyone born of Godovercomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." 1 Jn 5:4 NIV

"And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had beenvictorious over the beast, and his image and over the number of his name." Rev 15:2.

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ...." 2 Chor 10:3-5 NKJ.

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." 1 Cor 9:24-27 NKJ.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: olger

Must obedience die, that grace might live?

Obedience is to the Law of Love. Love would be nothing without Forgiveness.

Friend, God IS love. Forgiveness IS embodied in the very nature of God which is love. It cannot be love without forgiveness indeed!

Gerry

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Gerry, I'm sorry that you and I don't agree regarding the scope, Power, purpose, and magnitude of Forgiveness. Or do we? Your last two posts confuse me regarding your view of it. Please clarify.

In my world, Forgiveness is not only where the Journey starts, but also, where it "ends" (though it never ends).

Forgiveness has kept me from suicide, when I was sure I had slapped my God in the face.

Forgiveness has been there when I'm quite sure I slapped my best friend in the face.

Forgiveness has allowed me peace when I found myself in sin by mistake.

Forgiveness has taught me how to Love and be Loved.

Forgiveness has Prepared and Enabled me to Witness to those who've never really Known what it's like to be Forgiven.

Forgiveness is what makes me capable of wanting to follow God's rules, rather than rebelling out of fear, anger, and frustration. God Loves a cheerful giver, and I can't be cheerful about it if I don't fully comprehend what it means to be forgiven.

Forgiveness is what gives me power over every temptation as I learn to recognize the temptation and to look to God rather than fear the temptation, not only because I no longer want to sin in general, but because I am Healed from the current desire to sin, as well as from the marks of past sins. I am Clean, because I am Seen as Clean.

Forgiveness is the whole point of the Bible, from my vantage point. It Leads me to Trust, which leads me to feel safe in giving my heart, mind, and works, to God. It Leads me to Love. If I have not Love, I have nothing. Yet that Love is nothing without continued Forgiveness.

I'm sure Forgiveness means other things as well. And I'm thankful that it enables us to discuss this delicate issue without offending one another :)

[Woody]

If God were not LOVE ... How many of us would want to OBEY Him? We obey because He forgives us with His Love. If He did not forgive our failings ... we would give up and not serve Him. Our focus needs to be on the Love Giver not our works.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

If God were not LOVE ... How many of us would want to OBEY Him? We obey because He forgives us with His Love. If He did not forgive our failings ... we would give up and not serve Him. Our focus needs to be on the Love Giver not our works.

Amen :)