Conservative ?

[olger]

Thanks Red.

I don't believe any of us think that we can imbibe sin right up until the Day that the sky unrolls, and still be found in Him. The enemy would like each of us to believe that.

Perhaps this will help. Down through 6000-years of time, the only thing strong enough to cement our decision for Christ was death. Think about that. Pauls himself said "I beat my body, and keep it under subjection lest at any time having preached to others I might become a castaway."

So salvation comes with this twofold enigma. Full assurance "He that hath the Son has life." And, risk of losing it (see aforementioned passage in 1 Cor 9). Now, how do you get those two together?

So since there exists a possiblity that a person might change his mind on salvation, the only thing strong enough to seal our choices is death. Probation closes, decisions are sealed.

However...when Jesus comes back there will be a group of believers who will not have the crutch of death to seal their decision. They will walk right into heaven as per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. These people will be sealed not with death, but with the seal of God. They will be safe to save in a sinless universe because they have "loved not their lives, unto death." They are walking breathing crucified children of God, sealed while they yet live. Heaven says: "Let he which is filthy be filthy still, let he which is righteous be righteous still."

Probation has closed around them and it doesn't matter what happens, like Polycarp they are absolutely fixed by their choice to honor God.

That is how it will play out according to Scripture. Some people have turned against the Advent People after taking a long look at the judgement and disliking it. Ratzlaff for example..

Know why? Those who oppose the judgement live in fear that it will change their position from saved to lost. Ponder that.

However, and this the summary of what I am trying to present, the judgement only reveals where we are standing already. It does not move a person from one camp to another. It turns on the light switch.

We can be loyal to Him,

olger

[Woody]

I am quite familiar with Dale Ratzlaff. He was my Bible Teacher. But I would not condemn him quite so quickly. He believes in Salvation by Faith and we could learn a lot from him as SDAs regarding that truth.

As far as the people in the end times who are sealed by the seal of God rather than death. I was not referring to that isolated case. That is a totally different subject. I was referring to the here and now. What if I die in ten seconds? Since I am not totally sanctified at this moment ... what happens when I die. WELL ... I believe it is as the 7 BC quote which says restoration will happen at the second coming ... and 1 John which says we will be changed when we see His face.

The special event of those who are alive and remain .... well .... I am not worried. God has promised to provide a special outpouring of His Spirit and strength according to what we need. It is not something I have to worry about. Those in Christ will be given as the need is presented for that time. I have that assurance.

[olger]

Thanks Red. I included his name intentionally (DR).

As to death, what does it matter? If we're ready, we're ready. When we love God, we won't fear death (I can provide examples if need be).

rejoice always,

olger

[Woody]

Thanks Red. I included his name intentionally (DR).

As to death, what does it matter? If we're ready, we're ready. When we love God, we won't fear death (I can provide examples if need be).

rejoice always,

olger

I guess my concern has been that if you feel that sanctification has to be completed before the second coming ... you would certainly fear death.

[olger]

ain't afwaid

[Robert]

Perfection of character must be achieved during the early and latter rain experience so that when general probation closes at the end of the loud cry, the full corn of Christ's character will be in the ear!

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer….They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [PK 588]

[Robert]

In justification, the character of Christ stands in our place (imputed) but in our sanctification the character of Christ has been perfectly reproduced in us. (imparted)

Pure legalism!

[Robert]

Are you Sanctified Olger?

I have good news for Olger:

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He [Jesus] comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me;6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure. 7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the roll of the book it is written of Me )To do Thy will, O God.’” 8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast not desired, nor hast Thou taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Thy will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified [past tense] through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[Robert]

Do you personally believe that Sanctification can be completed during our lifetime? OR ... Is it a work of the lifetime.

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained . Sanctification is the result of lifelongobedience [i.e., growth]." [AA 560]

[Gerr]

Some in this thread claim that it is their belief that our sanctification is completed before Jesus comes. So ... my question remains ... WHEN ?

Is there anyone who can answer the following questions ? ....

Are you Sanctified ?

[color::blue]

Since I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior, yes, I have been sanctified.

[color:red]"But you were washed, but you were sanctified [perfect tense], but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11 NKJ.

Justification & sanctification occurs pretty much simultaneously.

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If not ...

But I am.

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when will it be completed ?

When I die. Sanctification, holification (if I may use this word), or the process of being made holy, is also a present, on-going process.

[color:red]"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified [present tense] are all of one..." Heb 2:11. See Also Heb 10:14.

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At any point during our life?

Death IS the stopping place. So, get all the holiness gusto while you can!

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At some specific point before death?

No.

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At Death?

Yes.

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After Death (in the grave)?

Waiting in the grave for glorification.

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Seconds before death?

At death.

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Have you met anyone who is sanctified?

Met many. They have not only confessed Jesus with their mouths, but with their lives as well. Yes, I met such people.

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When did they become sanctified?

I already answered that question. When a sinner accepts Jesus Christ as his/her LORD & Savior, he/she is justified AND sanctified.

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I hope someone out there will answer me as to when sanctification is completed?

I answered that at least twice already, but I'll say it again. Sanctification is a life-long process that stops only when a person dies.

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You say it is your opinion that it is to be done BEFORE Christ comes. But WHEN?

NOW!!! "Today, if you wilol hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." Heb 3:15 NKJ.

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And could you give some examples

Read Heb 11, it's full of them.

Gerry

[Woody]

Personally ... I am cetain that I will never attain enough holiness through Christ ... to be fit for Heaven. The things I want to do I don't and the things I don't want to do .... that I do. Praise the Lord ... when He comes in the clouds .... I will be made new. When I see His face I will be fit for Heaven.

Once I was corrupt .... then I will be incorruptable.

[Taylor]

I don't think Gerry is saying we will attain enough holiness to merit heaven. (and Gerry I am not you so perhaps I shouldn't put words into your mouth at all.....)I think he is saying that there will automatically be victory in a Christian's life who has given their heart to God and that they will be ever changing to become more like God untill Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven. (Maybe I should state that is my understanding and not implicate Gerry at all.)

[Woody]

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they will be ever changing to become more like God

I am saying that it is not completed here on this earth before Jesus comes. I am not fit for heaven. I never used the word merit. It is only God that has the merit. In other words I am not holy enough for heaven now. It I die now ... I would still not be fit for Heaven. I am not holy enough. I am justified. YES. But I am not fit.

I become fit or holy enough when I see His Face.

[skyblue888]

"Now, may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess.5:23

"As the members of the body of Christ approach the period of their last conflict, they will grow up into Christ, and will partake largely of His Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.356.

"In the East the former rain falls at the sowing time. It is necessary in order that the seed may germinate. under the influence of the fertilizing showers, the tender shoot springs up. The latter rain, falling near the close of the season, ripens the grain and prepares it for the sickle. The Lord employs these operations of nature to represent the work of the Holy Spirit. As the dew and the rain are given first to cause the seed to germinate, and then to ripen the harvest, so the Holy Spirit is given to carry forward, from one stage to another, the process of spiritual growth. The ripening of the grain represents the completion of the work of God's grace in the soul. By the power of the Holy Spirit the image of God is to be perfected in the character. We are to be wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ. The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man. But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection. There is to be 'first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p.506.

Either we believe the above or we don't!

[Woody]

At each stage of my life I am perfected in Christ. But I am still not fit for Heaven .

So ... are you fit for Heaven at this moment. Could you be trusted in Heaven at this moment if you died? Or do you need some further transformation? God's work is completed in my life. I am perfect IN Him. This is through justification. I am saved. I am now perfect in Him. But I could not be trusted in Heaven with my sinful state.

If I and you were to die at this moment .... we would not be fit for Heaven. We would need to be transformed by the power of God when we see His face.

We can't have sin in Heaven. And so unless you have stopped sinning and no longer need the grace of God to forgive you ... YOU ARE NOT FIT FOR HEAVEN. You can't just go to Heaven and when you sin ... say "Oh I asked Jesus to forgive me". We can't have sin in Heaven ... forgiven or otherwise.

Sin will not arise the second time.

So ... all of you who have stopped sinning ... please let me know.

[Gail]

My question is... Why worry about it?

You cannot sanctify yourself- the Lord does it in you

What parts have not been finished until the day when He comes, doesn't His blood cover that? His merits, as Skyblue has posted, aren't they good enough to cover us?

While you will notice your sinfulness ever more as you grow in Him and in holiness, isn't that why He came- to provide salvation to people who are sinful?

No matter where you are in your walk, it all depends on Christ

So, I repeat- why worry? Of course if you are not under Christ's banner, if you refuse His salvation then you have cause to worry

[Woody]

Gail ... you have made a good point. Why worry about it. This is very true. However ... the legalists will tell you that you have to have your character perfected while on this earth so that you do not have to rely on the forgiveness of Christ for present sins. That will not be done. And it is a danger to think this to be true.

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What parts have not been finished until the day when He comes, doesn't His blood cover that? His merits, as Skyblue has posted, aren't they good enough to cover us?

Yes ... His merits cover us. This is not about merits.Merits relate to Justification. This is about us being "fit" for heaven. We can't be in heaven having to rely upon the merits of Christ to forgive us. We can't have sin in Heaven ... forgiven or not. Sin will not arise the second time. We will have to be transformed and changed into perfection rather than relying upon the perfection of Christ. This transformation will happen when we see His face at the second coming.

[Woody]

I am not trustworthy enough to be in Heaven ... So ... something more needs to happen.

Praise the Lord ... "I will be your representative in Heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees yours clothed in My perfection" DA 357

Then ....

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

It is this restoration that I am talking about. We must have victory over every sin and "every temptation". And as the above quote says ... it is completed at the second coming. But yes ... it does start here and now.

If you can now tell me that you have victory over every sin and every temptation ... then you may not need this transformation and maybe you are ready for Heaven. But I have to have the forgiveness and merits of God to my account each and every day. I am not fit for a sinless society. I will have to be transformed when I see His face.

[skyblue888]

Thanks Gail. You are absolutely right. We are not to worry about the work of sanctification as long as we trust wholly in the merits of Christ for our salvation, whether it be justification or sanctification.

Red, you said that the merits of Christ are only good for our justification. But according to the pen of inspiration, we are both justfified and sanctified through the merits of Christ.

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Christ."Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

"We are to be transformed through the merits of Christ." Our Father Cares, p.204.

As we daily claim the merits of Christ, we are not only justified, treated as though we had never sinned, but the Spirit is imparted to do the work of sanctification, bringing into subjection all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and impressing Christ's character upon us. See D.A.671.

This does not mean that it is impossible to sin. If we fall, we know we have an Advocate at the right hand of God who is faithful to forgive us our sins and to immediately cleanse us from all unrighteousness if we confess our sin. Praise God!

And yet, it is possible not to sin as long as our communion with God is maintained. Of course there may be unknown sins but these too will be dealt with in God's own good time. But if we don't believe that the work of sanctification involves victory over every besetting sin, then we cannot exercise the faith that is essential at this time or we cannot occupy the position which God designs us to fill!

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not, for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame." 1 Cor.15:34.

[Woody]

Gail said ....

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What parts have not been finished until the day when He comes, doesn't His blood cover that? His merits, as Skyblue has posted, aren't they good enough to cover us?

This is referring to justification. It has nothing to do with being fit for heaven. Covering up our sins has nothing to do with making us perfect and able to live in a sinless society except for the justification for us being there which is a different subject.

[Woody]

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Thanks Gail. You are absolutely right. We are not to worry about the work of sanctification as long as we trust wholly in the merits of Christ for our salvation, whether it be justification or sanctification.

Please don't misrepresent what Gail said.

She made NO mention of sanctification. Those were your words not hers.

[skyblue888]

I understood Gail to mean that if a true child of God were to die before the general close of probation, and had lived up to all the light received, and the record showed no sins unconfessed or unforsaken, then the merits and righteousness of Christ would make up for what is lacking as far as the growth in grace is concerned.

However, at the close of general probation, the people of God who are still living upon the earth must pass the investigative judgment of the living. They must come up to that judgment which comes at the end of the loud cry with perfect victory over sin and they must reflect the character of Christ fully. This work will be finished in the soul by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in latter rain power. This is what prepares the church for the time of Jacob's trouble and for the return of Jesus.

When general probation closes, Jesus will prounounce the sentence: "He that is holy, let him be holy still and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still. He that is unholy, let him be unholy still and he is that unrighteous, let him be unrighteous still." Rev.22:11.

[skyblue888]

And this is what you need to address:

Red, you said that the merits of Christ are only good for our justification. But according to the pen of inspiration, we are both justfified and sanctified through the merits of Christ.

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Christ."Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

"We are to be transformed through the merits of Christ." Our Father Cares, p.204.

As we daily claim the merits of Christ, we are not only justified, treated as though we had never sinned, but the Spirit is imparted to do the work of sanctification, bringing into subjection all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and impressing Christ's character upon us. See D.A.671.

This does not mean that it is impossible to sin. If we fall, we know we have an Advocate at the right hand of God who is faithful to forgive us our sins and to immediately cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we confess them. Praise God!

And yet, it is possible not to sin as long as our communion with God is maintained. Of course there may be unknown sins but these too will be dealt with in God's own good time. But if we don't believe that the work of sanctification involves victory over every besetting sin, then we cannot exercise the faith that is essential at this time or we cannot occupy the position which God designs us to fill!

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not, for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame." 1 Cor.15:34.

[Woody]

I am referring to the here and now. I am not sure why a misunderstood time of the end is always brought into a discussion of our current status.

But ... Since you insist on changing the subject .... This is what the sinful Remnant will look like.....

"As Joshua pleaded before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and unfaltering faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus, their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness; and they are ready to despair.

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God." PK 588

[skyblue888]

I have been talking about the "here and now" the whole time!

Why are you leaving the most important part where you found that statement?