Conservative ?

[Woody]

Quote:

before probation closes God will have a people in whom Christ will be revealed in His fullness by the Holy Spirit's power.

Again ... this is apples and oranges. And you are good at talking about that. But as I requested previously ... why don't you start a new thread on "probation".

Since this seems to be a stumbling block for you ... I will again and again ask you ... What about all the thousands of Saints over the years who will be saved but did not reach your level of perfection. Are they to be trusted in Heaven without being changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. Yes ... they will no longer be corrupt ... because they will see His Face and be transformed and thus "fit" for heaven as the SDA Bible Commentary describes.

Upon death they were forgiven sinners ... but upon seeing His face they will be perfected and without sin so that sin will not arise the second time in Heaven.

[skyblue888]

The apostle Paul prayed that Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith that we might be filled with all the fullness of God! Eph.3:14-19. In Christ dwells all the fullness of God! Col.2:9.

"Are we seeking for His fullness, ever pressing toward the mark set before us--the perfection of his character? When the Lord's people reach this mark, they will be sealed in their foreheads. Filled with the Spirit, they will be complete in Christ, and the recording angel will declare, 'It is finished.'" Review and Herald, June 10, 1902; 6 B.C.1118.

"When we see Jesus as He is, earnest desires should awaken in our hearts to be rid of self, that we may filled with all the fullness of Christ. When this is our experience, we shall do good to one another, and use all the means within our reach to attain to godliness. We must cleanse our souls from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and perfect holiness in the fear of God." Selected Messages, Vol.1,p.313.

But let us not forget that "No man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work." C.O.L.159.

"In the strength of the Redeemer, weak, erring man can become more than conqueror over the evil that besets him." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.310.

"We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." Romans 8:37.

[Woody]

You continue to ignore my question.

All your quotes are fine and true but have nothing to do with the repeated question before us.

So ... enjoy your apples and oranges.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In justification, the character of Christ stands in our place (imputed) but in our sanctification the character of Christ has been perfectly reproduced in us. (imparted)

Pure legalism!

I could get a little tired of this droning..

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Pure legalism! [/quote'] I could get a little tired of this droning..

Well, when it ceases to be taught here then I'll stop using the word. Until then you'll have to get use to it.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: olger

Well, when it ceases to be taught here then I'll stop using the word. Until then you'll have to get use to it.

You mean, when the Gospel ceases to be taught! The only legalists the Scriptures know are those who attempt to obey the law clothed with their own righteousness, trusting in their own merits and efforts, that is.

But those who are clothed with the glistening vesture of Christ's righteousness, trusting in the merits of Christ and His grace alone to do for them that which it is not in their power to do for themselves, namely keeping the law perfectly, do not depend upon what they can do or what they will do, for "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.65,66.

"Christ's righteousness is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers, p.92.

[Gail]

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sancified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor.6:11

Paul was comparing the Corinthians with how they USED to be before knowing Jesus. He said that they already were sanctified.

The chapter deals with purity. He gave instructions on how to live godly lives, so the process is ongoing, we know. But I cannot see the value of fearing about fitness for Heaven beyond how the Lord will lead one day at a time.

[Woody]

Gail ... it is important because the legalists here are saying that unless you are without sin before you die or before He comes ... you are lost.

But the truth is that you and I will sin and need the forgiveness of Jesus. And we can't go to Heaven continuing to need the forgiveness of Jesus. WE can't go to Heaven and continue to sin. Sin will not arise a second time in Heaven.

So ... for you and I and all the thousands of people who have died over the thousands of years past ... we will need to be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and changed from our corrupt sinful ways to a sinless state. We will be changed to a sinless state that no longer needs the forgiveness of Christ. And this will happen when we see His face At the Second Coming. We will then be "fit" for Heaven. Why would anyone not want to know of this?

Quote:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

Praise the Lord. Isn't this Great News !!! This does not in any way discount our need to be sanctified and to continue to grow in sanctification here on Earth. But ... you and I and all the thousands of people who have relied on the forgiveness of Jesus will have our sanctification "completed" when we see His face at the second coming.

[skyblue888]

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sancified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor.6:11

Paul was comparing the Corinthians with how they USED to be before knowing Jesus. He said that they already were sanctified.

The chapter deals with purity. He gave instructions on how to live godly lives, so the process is ongoing, we know. But I cannot see the value of fearing about fitness for Heaven beyond how the Lord will lead one day at a time.

******************************************

>For His church in every generation God has a special truth and a special work.> C.O.L.78.

Gail, let me know if you are familiar with this and if you agree with it: Thanks.

Is this not the special work that is expected to be accomplished in these last days and the special truth that was entrusted to Seventh-day Adventists?

>Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing." The Great Controversy, p.425.

This work of putting away of sin is to be accomplished before Christ ceases His intercession, not when He appears in the clouds of heaven.

This is the special truth and the special work for the last generation. It was not expected of former Christians before 1844 but it certainly is of us. If we come up to the judgment of the living when the mission of the Gospel is completed at the end of the loud cry with sins unconfessed or unrepented of, we will not pass its scrutiny and our names will be taken off the book of life. Right?

If we die before the judgment of the living, then we are judged according to the judgment of the dead. These may not have reached the full corn in the ear of Christ's character but if they have no sins on the records marked as unconfessed or unrepented of, they are covered with the righteousness of Christ and are safe in the arms of God.

How am I doing so far?

[Woody]

Quote:

It was not expected of former Christians before 1844 but it certainly is of us.

Lets dispense for the sake of the argument ... the issue of those after 1844.And by the way ... the investigative judgment is a process. It was not completed in one hour or one day. But what about those who you mention here who died Before 1844.

They died sinning. Their sins are forgiven. They go to Heaven. Do they continue to sin and have their sins forgiven in Heaven? Or what will change so that they do not sin in Heaven? Will they be changed when they see His face at the second coming as scripture and the Bible Commentary indicate or not? Oh ... I am sure you will continue to ignore this issue as you have for the past week.

Quote:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

[Robert]

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sancified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor.6:11

He said that they already were sanctified.

Good point....Let me use another version for better clarification:

But you were washed [past tense], you were sanctified [past tense], you were justified [past tense] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." [NIV]

Here's another:

Titus 3:4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,

When did He appear? Almost 2000 years ago. That's the context!

verse 5: he saved us ,

How, by what He does in us?

not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

Where were we washed and regenerated -- Individaully or corporately? That's the question!

Remember that Paul is speaking about what Christ did 2000 years ago in our corporate humanity. Therefore the answer must be "corporately". Let's see if this pans out within the context of Titus:

by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon us richly through (or in) Jesus Christ our Savior....

We are complete "in Him"!

[Robert]

Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.

Either we are misunderstanding EGW or this is one of her fallible remarks done out of ignorance. Been there done that too....Ellen was not perfect in her theology. She changed on some points. In fact she said,

"The question has been asked me, Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people? I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth. We [EGW includes herself] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us." [1SM 401]

[skyblue888]

I wonder if she was erring here too:

"The religion of Jesus Christ means more than the forgiveness of sin; it means taking away our sins, and filling the vacuum with the graces of the Holy Spirit. It means divine illumination, rejoicing in God. It means a heart emptied of self, and blessed with the abiding presence of Christ. When Christ reigns in the soul, there is purity, freedom from sin. The glory, the fullness, the completeness of the gospel plan is fulfilled in the life. The acceptance of the Saviour brings a glow of perfect peace, perfect love, perfect assurance. The beauty and fragrance of the character of Christ revealed in the life testifies that God has indeed sent His Son into the world to be its Saviour." Christ's Object Lessons, p.420.

[skyblue888]

The Bible! The Bible! It is just as easy to teach it from the Bible as to teach it from the SOP! Try Eph.3:14-19.

[Woody]

The Bible! The Bible! It is just as easy to teach it from the Bible as to teach it from the SOP! Try Eph.3:14-19.

What a burden to have to be referred back to the Bible. If it is just as easy ... then why not just keep to the Bible and just drop the SOP ??

[skyblue888]

I know that this is exactly what some want, because in reality they have no use for the SOP except if they can find something in it that has an appearance of support for their private interpretations of the Word of God.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

It was not expected of former Christians before 1844 but it certainly is of us.

Lets dispense for the sake of the argument ... the issue of those after 1844.And by the way ... the investigative judgment is a process. It was not completed in one hour or one day. But what about those who you mention here who died Before 1844.

They died sinning. Their sins are forgiven. They go to Heaven. Do they continue to sin and have their sins forgiven in Heaven? Or what will change so that they do not sin in Heaven? Will they be changed when they see His face at the second coming as scripture and the Bible Commentary indicate or not? Oh ... I am sure you will continue to ignore this issue as you have for the past week.

Quote:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were tranferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the great Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. The books of record in Heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment... Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned, and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God... How solemn is the thought! Day after day, passing into eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of heaven. Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth cannot call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal of woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn... Those who would share the benefits of the Saviour's mediation should permit nothing to interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in the fear of God. The precious hours, instead of being given to pleasure, to display, or to gain seeking, should be devoted to an earnest, prayerful study of the word of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for htem to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God... All who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing." The Great Controversy, p.485-490.

These statements clearly show that for the people of God in these last days the work of sanctification must and will be completed when Jesus leaves the sanctuary in Heaven, a short time before He returns in the clouds of Heaven. Then the great time of trouble will begin and those who have received the final seal will go through the time of Jacob's trouble and will finally be translated without seeing death.

[David Koot]

Quote:

It is just as easy to teach it from the Bible as to teach it from the SOP!

And.....? Hmmmm, must not be true!

Actually, it is. Both witnesses teach the same thing.

[skyblue888]

Exactly!

[Gregory Matthews]

Just tagging one:

Folks, can we cool it some. Or, should I say: Cool it, plaase.

[David Koot]

Quote:

EGW, was quite fond of reminding people to quit quoting her and go to their Bibles.

Seems she did not agree with either of you...oh well....what ever!

Two different issues: first, does EGW teach the same stuff the Bible teaches? second, does she say to quote the Bible, particularly in presentations to the public? Yes on both. The lesser light does not contradict the greater light. But still, the Bible is the greater light. As for the 'lesser light,' it has been given to guide God's remnant church. If God has given us this gift of the Testimonies, then logically we would do well to study it. The Spirit of Prophecy contains pointed testimonies about us and our need to prepare to meet Jesus. I think it is safe to say that God intends that we study these testimonies, for they are 'the testimnony of Jesus,' given to us.

Dave

[jasd]

>>...first, does EGW teach the same stuff the Bible teaches? ... Yes on both. The lesser light does not contradict the greater light.<<

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, v21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; v22 Which all are to perish with the using;)

>>...teach the same stuff the Bible teaches?<<

Well, sometimes not, yes? Do the .Org's dogmas, doctrines, or ordinances eschew certain foods and drink? wherefrom, are these things desseminated?

The above is not to say that -- it is not well with the soul to embrace a selective lifestyle; but one can hardly corelate the above quote, can one?

[David Koot]

Well, ahem, my dear fellow, them are apples and oranges. The issues of the ceremonial law were quite different from health concerns.

Cheers.

[jasd]

>>...them are apples and oranges.<<

So, are you saying that the

dear woman, as also the .Org, address the issue as purely a matter of "health concern"? Seems to me that

should one advocate a "touch not; taste not; handle not" approach to matters of foods or drink -- advocates contrarily to St Paul's admonition... and, ipso facto,

Holy Writ;

apples and oranges, notwithstanding

[Woody]

Quote:

I think it is safe to say that God intends that we study these testimonies, for they are 'the testimnony of Jesus,' given to us.

Interesting that Ellen White herself said that if we would study the Bible it would not be necessary to study the Testimonies. All we need is in the Bible. She would have no problem with us discarding her writings and devoting ourselves totally to the Bible and the Bible alone.