Conservative ?

[David Koot]

I believe her words were more along the line that if people had studied the Bible as they should, then there would have been no need for her writings. However, once the prophetic gift was given and exercised, she did not say that God's last-day people were at liberty to discard her writings. Since God saw a need to give the gift, and it was foretold in the book of Revelation and elsewhere, then logically it would seem important for us to receive the benefit God intended through it. In fact, Sister White warned that satan's final deception would be 'to make of no effect the Testmonies.'

[olger]

Good point, Sir David.

[skyblue888]

Right on Dave.

[Clio]

In fact, Sister White warned that satan's final deception would be 'to make of no effect the Testmonies.'

Do you have a cite for that quote David? I've been searching through her writings using the phrase you've provided and cannot find such a broad statement... Only the one aimed specifically at Battle Creek.

[Taylor]

I have read that quote before as well, but maybe David can tell us where it is found. I haven't a clue.

[Clio]

Like I said, I did find the quote, but in a limited context aimed directly at not sending one's children to Battle Creek. There was also a quote about limiting the effect of the Sentinel and Testimonies which I believe were magazine publications of James.

But the broad instruction that David is claiming here, I cannot find.

Clio

[David Koot]

I will, indeed, try to locate it again. Have read it at various times over the years. If my search engine cannot find it, then I expect the EGW estate could help me, as they have at other times.

Dave

[John317]

Originally Posted By: David Koot

In fact, Sister White warned that satan's final deception would be 'to make of no effect the Testmonies.'

Do you have a cite for that quote David? I've been searching through her writings using the phrase you've provided and cannot find such a broad statement... Only the one aimed specifically at Battle Creek.

Selected Messages, book 1, p. 48. "The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God...There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic..."

Get a book called Omega II God's Church at the Brink by Lewis R. Walton, who quotes that as well as many other important thoughts from Ellen White about end-time events as they relate to the SDA church. Such as:

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith...The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed...A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded..." Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, Pp. 54, 55.

Also: "My message to you is this: No longer consent to listen without protest to the perversion of truth." Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, p. 15.

"Satan has his allies in men. And evil angels in human form will appear to men, and present before them such glowing representations of what they will be able to do if they will only heed their suggestions, that often they change their penitence for defiance...Sin has darkened the reasoning powers, and hell is triumphing. O, will not men cease to trust in human beings?" Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 21

" There are men who teach the truth, but who are not perfecting their ways before God, who are trying to conceal their defections, and encourage an estrangement from God." Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 11, P. 6.

"Creaping in unawares, they will use flattering words and make skillful misrepresentations with seductive tact." Ellen G. White manuscript 94, 1903.

[Clio]

To make of no effect the testimony of the Spirit of God is very different than what is being implied or outright stated in this thread.

Clio

[David Koot]

To make of no effect the testimony of the Spirit of God is very different than what is being implied or outright stated in this thread.

Clio

On what basis do you say that? Do you know what Sister White was talking about when she said those words? What she meant by the 'testimonies'?

[John317]

To make of no effect the testimony of the Spirit of God is very different than what is being implied or outright stated in this thread.

Clio

The "testimony of the Spirit of God," like "the testimony of Jesus," refers to all the writings of the Bible prophets but includes the testimonies that Ellen White wrote for the Seventh-day Adventist church. They are called by this name because the writings of the prophets are not their own messages but are really the messages of Christ to the church and the world.

The "testimonies" refers in their primary sense to Ellen White's Testimonies For the Church.

"I commend these words to you in the name of Jesus who has given me my commission," Ellen White wrote to one Seventh-day Adventist. " Do not reject them. You would never have rejected the Testimonies as you have, had your wrongdoings not been reproved..." 4 T 244, 245

"Those who carefully read the testimonies as they have appeared from the early days, need not be perplexed as to their origin. The many books, written by the help of the Spirit of God, bear a living witness to the character of the testimonies." 1 SM 49, 50.

"Some who are not willing to receive the light, but who prefer to walk in ways of their own choosing, will search the testimonies to find something in them to encourage the spirit of unbelief and disobedience. Thus a spirit of disunion will be brought in; for the spirit which leads them to critisize the testimonies will also led them to watch their brethren to find in them something to condemn." 1 SM 48

"Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through diffrent agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remenant people in the true testimony." 1 SM 48

"Sometimes in ministers and physicaians bearing responsibilities there has developed a disposition to discard the testimonies, and I have been instructed not to place testimonies in their hands; for having yielded to the spirit that tempted and oveercame Adam and Eve, they have opened mind and heart to the control of the enemy." 1 SM 51

These quotes leave no doubt what is being referred to when she speaks of "the testimonies."

An excellent source of knowledge of this topic can be found under Testimonies on pages 2777- 2786 of the Comprehensive Index to the Writings of Ellen G. White, where the reader will find several hundred references to her "testimonies."

[Woody]

Yes John317 ... these were individual testimonies given to specific individuals for individual reasons. But, they were not meant for the church as a whole. She did not want all the peeping Toms to peep into someone elses individual life situation and using it as a hammer for others.

[Gerr]

Yes John317 ... these were individual testimonies given to specific individuals for individual reasons. But, they were not meant for the church as a whole. She did not want all the peeping Toms to peep into someone elses individual life situation and using it as a hammer for others.

Same line of reasoning used to reject the Sabbath, i.e. it was meant only for the Jews! IF you don't have the problem that is addressed by the Testimonies, then, yes, you are correct - it/they don't apply to you. The fact is, they are Testimonies TO the CHURCH because the problems they address ARE the problems IN the Church.

Gerry

[Woody]

People don't bother to know what the issues were that Ellen White was addressing. They treat her like they do the Bible and use "proof text" or "proof quotes". The problem with Ellen White is that she is abused . Do you really bother to know the individual situation of the individuals that she was writing to? NO. In fact ... not all the critical information and personal information is available. So ... we take her advise out of context. And by the way ... when Jesus gave the Sabbath ... there were no Jews. And now ....

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave not free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

[David Koot]

Yes John317 ... these were individual testimonies given to specific individuals for individual reasons. But, they were not meant for the church as a whole. She did not want all the peeping Toms to peep into someone elses individual life situation and using it as a hammer for others.

Much of what Sr. White wrote was general counsel, addressed to the church as a whole. Much, also, was personal counsel, on a private level. A number of the references John317 quoted are general in application. They were not directed privately to individuals.

[John317]

Yes John317 ... these were individual testimonies given to specific individuals for individual reasons. But, they were not meant for the church as a whole. She did not want all the peeping Toms to peep into someone elses individual life situation and using it as a hammer for others.

Hi Redwood,

It's true that many private testimonies were kept from the public, but what I have shown here are testimonies that Ellen White directed to be published in the 9 volumes of material we know of as Testimonies For The Church. That was her decision and she did it many, many years before her death. Some were published for the whole church back in the 1850s and 60s. That proves that she meant them for the whole church because she believed those testimonies contain counsel that pertains to, and can benefit, all of us. Other testimonies she directed to be published after she died and after the indiviuals to whom she wrote died.

[John317]

People don't bother to know what the issues were that Ellen White was addressing. They treat her like they do the Bible and use "proof text" or "proof quotes". The problem with Ellen White is that she is abused . Do you really bother to know the individual situation of the individuals that she was writing to? NO. In fact ...

...in fact, seems like I remember you did exactly that sort of thing a short time ago in relation to E.J. Waggoner, Redwood. We all need to be fair and honest when dealing with these issues.

When it comes to quoting the testimonies for the purpose of showing what is meant by "the testimonies," it doesn't matter what the individual situations were. What matters is how the prophet used the terms, and what people of that day thought when they heard reference to "the testimonies," the "the testimony of the Spirit," "the Spirit of prophecy," or "the Testimony of Jesus." There's no need to be confused as to their meaning if only we would choose to understand. But could it be that some don't want to understand what is meant by those terms?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Yes John317 ... these were individual testimonies given to specific individuals for individual reasons. But, they were not meant for the church as a whole. She did not want all the peeping Toms to peep into someone elses individual life situation and using it as a hammer for others.

Same line of reasoning used to reject the Sabbath, i.e. it was meant only for the Jews! IF you don't have the problem that is addressed by the Testimonies, then, yes, you are correct - it/they don't apply to you. The fact is, they are Testimonies TO the CHURCH because the problems they address ARE the problems IN the Church.

Gerry

Great point and very well said!!

[John317]

Yes John317 ... these were individual testimonies given to specific individuals for individual reasons. But, they were not meant for the church as a whole. She did not want all the peeping Toms to peep into someone elses individual life situation and using it as a hammer for others.

A more relevent question is, what do the quotes from the testimonies prove was meant by Ellen White's use of "the testimonies"?

The quotes from the Testimonies For the Church were posted in order to deal with questions raised about the following statement by Ellen White: "The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God...There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic..." Selected Messages, book 1, p. 48.

They show without question that Ellen White was talking about General Lucifer getting many in the SDA church to "make of none effect" and hate the testimonies that Ellen White wrote. Satan knows he has to separate the church from Christ's messages.

[Robert]

Selected Messages, book 1, p. 48. "The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God...There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic..."

Context is everything! Check out the red, bold lettering:

Satan is . . . constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in differentways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence [faith] of God's remnant people in the true testimony. [selected Messages, book 1, p. 48.]

Okay, who is "the truth"? Jesus! Who is "the true testimony"? Again, Jesus.

John 14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

Now how will Satan deceive many within Adventism to make none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God? Can we find an example? Yes. Here it is (pay attention to the context):

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, PG- 794

“The result of your course and your working on the same line since you left Minneapolis has made the carrying out of the work given me of God to do fifty fold harder than it need to have been. You have barred my way, but O, how little did you know the real result of your work. This has been opened before me. When you have stated that Sr. White was influenced by W. C. W., A. T. Jones, and E. J. Waggoner, you have planted in hearts infidelity that has been nourished and has borne fruit. You will not be pleased to reap the harvest….A lack of faith in the message [i.e., the message of 1888] God has given me to bear of the order represented is decided unbelief to all intents and purposes. There is not one bit of savor in such a faith, and the faith of Elder Butler is of the same order, valueless, having no savor, I count nothing upon you or him to harmonize with me in my work given me of God….So effectually does [color:#333333]this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse [i.e., the Scribes & Pharisees]. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation. There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the spirit of God are heeded.”

[Robert]

There is not one bit of savor in such a faith, and the faith of Elder Butler is of the same order, valueless, having no savor....

What did both Elder Butler and Smith reject in the GC of 1888?

"You [Elder Butler] have turned from plain light because you were afraid that the law question in Galatians would have to be accepted ." [Letter 59, 1890, p. 6. (To Uriah Smith, March 8, 1890.)]

What was being taught by Jones/Waggoner concerning the law?

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law." [1SM 234]

You see the legalists were saying that the law spoken of in Galatians was the ceremonial law. But Jones & Waggoner taught otherwise. To make it worse EGW agreed with them. So the majority of the SDA church at that time rejected the message.

Here's the context:

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The just shall live by faith.”....19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions [i.e., to expose sin] until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law .

[Robert]

So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased.

Again, 1 John 1:8

"If we say we have no sin [i.e., I am a law keeper], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

That's the delusion! But, like EGW said, "This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse." Why?

Again:

Because so effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased.

Been there, done that and an arrow from the Lord made it through. I hope the Lord can do the same to many here on CA.

Robert

[Woody]

Thank you Robert.

[Robert]

[Woody]