Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 Sky you have done a successful job of misrepresenting both Gail's statements and my statements for the purpose of stating some belief of yours which is not staying on the topic of what I am saying. Go for it. Go ahead and preach instead of having a discussion if that is what you want. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 Here is the statement that must be read along with what you just quoted from PK: "But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares, 'The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls..." PK 589. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 Quote: They must come up to that judgment which comes at the end of the loud cry with perfect victory over sin We living in 2007 are not expected to have "perfect victory over sin". We are expected to have Jesus "cover" our sins just as Gail described. Refer to Gail's post for an accurate description of our Justification. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 Well, if that is what Gail meant, then I would have to disagree with her. It is for her to explain herself now. If she meant only justification, she spoke rigthtly. But we are dealing with more than justification here. We are talking about both justification and sanctification in the "here and now." Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Administrators Gail Posted April 16, 2007 Administrators Posted April 16, 2007 Hmm... I may be simple, but I believe that God's grace, through Jesus, helps me both to be justified from sin and it gives me power over sin. I am not sinless by any means, but when I need help for the sin I have in my heart, Jesus is the only One I can turn to for help. He was the One who was and is sinless, Who walked that way before me as a man and as my Saviour helps me to have victory. It doesn't matter what point of time we talk about, if I am to die right now or before He comes, my only hope of salvation (redemption, sanctification, resurrection) is in Him. It is because of what He has done, what He is doing right now and what He has power to do and has promised to do in time yet to come that I have hope. That is how I understand it... Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 She spoke rightly.!! Gail ... I like all that you have said. It is so true. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 Yes Gail, I thought that this is what you were saying all along. If you were to die right now with no unconfessed sins or unforsaken sins, yes Jesus would cover for you and His righteousness would stand in the place of your sins which had been sent beforehand to judgment. However, those who come up to the judgment of the living at the end of the loud cry must have had victory over every sin and they will have the full corn of the character of Christ in the ear. This is the work of both the early and latter rain. Do you agree with this? I have quoted from Testimonies to Ministers p.506 which explains this very clearly. So far Red has refused to comment on it! Here is the statements I am talking about which I have quoted. "As the members of the body of Christ approached the period of their last conflict, they will grow up into Christ, and will partake largely of His Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.356. "In the East the former rain falls at the sowing time. It is necessary in order that the seed may germinate. under the influence of the fertilizing showers, the tender shoot springs up. The latter rain, falling near the close of the season, ripens the grain and prepares it for the sickle. The Lord employs these operations of nature to represent the work of the Holy Spirit. As the dew and the rain are given first to cause the seed to germinate, and then to ripen the harvest, so the Holy Spirit is given to carry forward, from one stage to another, the process of spiritual growth. The ripening of the grain represents the completion of the work of God's grace in the soul. By the power of the Holy Spirit the image of God is to be perfected in the character. We are to be wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ. The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man. But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection. There is to be 'first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p.506. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 At some point it might be nice to return to what I was talking about. But that is up to all of you. Justification ... Sanctification ... All the good works and sanctification here on Earth is just fine. BUT .... If you think that if you were to die today and are so sinless that you would not polute Heaven ... then we have some serious talking to do. We are all sinful. Yes ... those who accept Christ are "covered" as Gail has said. But we remain sinful . We are not fit for Heaven because we continue to need the grace of God and His Robe over our sins. When we go to Heaven ... we can not expect to sin and have to have the grace of God continue to cover us as He has done on Earth. Just imagine all the thousands of years of sinners who have died "covered" by the grace of God ... being in Heaven and expecting Jesus to cover the sins that they commit in Heaven. No ... when we all are raised from the graves ... we will be changed ... transformed into perfection so that sin will never pop its head the second time in Heaven. Quote: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 "Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 Quote: So far Red has refused to comment on it! There is no issue to comment on. I agree with all the quotes. But since we are talking about apples and oranges ... there really is no discussions going on. Just preaching to the wind. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 Is this quote 7 B.C. 649 from Ellen White? I can't find it. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 Quote: So far Red has refused to comment on it! There is no issue to comment on. I agree with all the quotes. But since we are talking about apples and oranges ... there really is no discussions going on. Just preaching to the wind. So then you agree with the following? "The ripening of the grain represents the completion of the work of God's grace in the soul. By the power of the Holy Spirit the image of God is to be perfected in the character. We are to be wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ. The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man." T.M.506. It says clearly that this work of perfecting the character, of being wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ is to prepare the church for the coming of Christ! It does not say that this work will be done at the coming of Christ but before the coming of Christ to prepare us for the coming of Christ! Right? Plus, that work is completed before general probation closes! There is still the time of Jacob's trouble to go through before Jesus returns and yet the work of God's grace is completed way before He returns. The crucible will reveal that the work of sanctification was indeed completed before the true people of God enter it! And please, Red, don't forget. I can't find that statement from Ellen White which you claim is in 7 B.C.649! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 Quote: "The ripening of the grain represents the completion of the work of God's grace in the soul. Yes ... The work of God's grace is our justification for heaven. Quote: By the power of the Holy Spirit the image of God is to be perfected in the character. We are to be wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ.[/ Yes ... we are to be perfected into the likeness of God. The image of God is to be perfected in the character through the Holy Spirit. Quote: The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man." T.M.506. It is the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man. Sky ... It is you that reads perfect works of the saints before the coming of Christ. I do not read it as you do. But again you have successfully changed the focus of the conversation. You ignore what I say for the sake of preaching what you want to preach. How about you responding to my posts now that I have responded to your focus. I am talking about all those who have died over the past thousands of years. Are they "fit" for Heaven . Have they achieved perfect works? If they go to Heaven are they allowed to continue to sin and have to claim the grace of Jesus to cover the sins they commit in Heaven? If not ... when will they be changed? I will tell you. It is when they see His face. Do you not believe in the statements I have repeatedly quoted? Why don't you respond to them? Quote: It says clearly that this work of perfecting the character, of being wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ is to prepare the church for the coming of Christ! Being transformed into the likeness of Christ will prepare the church for his coming. But ... all have fallen short over the centuries and we continue to fall short. I refuse your perfectionist requirements which are not in the text. Even if you felt it was ... I would like bring you back to what I keep saying .... What about the centuries of sinners. When they raise from their graves ... they are still sinful although forgiven sinners. And since sin will not rise the second time ... these forgiven sinners who are going to Heaven will need to be transformed. Quote: It does not say that this work will be done at the coming of Christ but before the coming of Christ to prepare us for the coming of Christ! Right? It prepares us no doubt. But perfection will not be completed until the second coming. You are reading more into this than is there. Quote: that work is completed before general probation closes! I am not sure why you keep bringing it back to the probation issue. It just confuses things. That is another subject but God is consistant. Perhaps you should start another thread on that topic. I would be happy to participate. For the sake of this discussion it would be helpful keep on topic. And we can do that without referring to probation. We still have the issue of all those sinners from thousands of years going to Heaven. Totally covered by the Grace of God. But sinners. Do you want them in Heaven? Quote: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 "Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 "I can't find that statement from Ellen White which you claim is in 7 B.C.649! " Sky ... It is the last full sentence on 7 BC 649 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 16, 2007 Author Posted April 16, 2007 Quote: I am not sinless by any means Gail ... since you are not sinless ... how are you going to "fit" into Heaven? I am not talking about your RIGHT to be there.You have the assurance of Salvation. I am talking about your fitness to be there. Since sin is not to rise the second time ... how can you go to heaven and expect to have your sins "covered"? No ... all of us including all those sinners over the thousands of years will be transformed when they see His Face. Then we all will be fit for Heaven. Yes ... we are to start the process of being like Christ now. BUT the work will be completed when we see His face. Quote: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Gail Posted April 16, 2007 Administrators Posted April 16, 2007 I am going to let Jesus worry about that, and trust in Him. He knows what I need and is able and willing to provide that. I want to be with Him- isn't that enough? I can't do anything to fit myself for Heaven. I just surrender into His hands Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Robert Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 "For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified [present tense] are all of one..." Heb 2:11. See Also Heb 10:14. Heb 2:11 For both He [Jesus] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father....[NASB] "In Christ" you are already sanctified!!! Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified We are perfected FOR ALL TIME if we have accepted Christ by faith. We are sanctified "in Him".... Quote
Robert Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 "But while the followers of Christ have sinned,[color:#000066] they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. Quote
skyblue888 Posted April 16, 2007 Posted April 16, 2007 hmmm so much for answering my questions and no comment on the statements I quoted from T.M.506! What about the statement you quoted which you claim was from Ellen White. It cannot be found in the Volume 7A which has all her statements from the Bible Commentary books. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted April 17, 2007 Author Posted April 17, 2007 Sorry you can't find it. There is no 7A. I do not know what you are looking at. Like I said it is at the bottom of the pages. It is the last full sentence. 7BC. 649. NOT 7A. Perhaps you would like someone else to look it up for you. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 17, 2007 Author Posted April 17, 2007 Quote: What about the statement you quoted which you claim was from Ellen White. It cannot be found in the Volume 7A which has all her statements from the Bible Commentary books. I am not sure what 7A is but the problem may be your idea that I said Ellen White said this. All I did was to quote the Bible Commentary. I never stated that it was a quote from Ellen White. I gave you the reference and told you where on the page to look it up. I am not sure what more I can do for you. But to think that you can find it in something called 7A when I told you it was 7BC does not make sense to me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 17, 2007 Author Posted April 17, 2007 Quote: hmmm so much for answering my questions and no comment on the statements I quoted from T.M.506 Sky ... I don't know what forum you are on. I don't know how much more of a complete answer I could give you. I went line by line and answered it in Post #121262. I gave you the courtesy that you do not give to me. So ... I really don't know what you are complaining about. You twist the topic of what I am saying to something else and do not respond to anything in context to what I am saying and then criticize ME !! Amazing.!! Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 17, 2007 Posted April 17, 2007 7A Bible Commentary contains all of Mrs. White's statements that are found in SDA Bible Commentary volumes 1 to 10. This book has been around for many years and is available at the ABC. If we are going to quote from the Bible Commentaries we should let the readers know whether we are quoting from Mrs. White because these commentaries are full of comments that are not from her. The statement you quoted to support the idea that sanctification will be completed by Christ at His second coming is not in harmony with the bulk of what Mrs. White taught on that subject. In Testimonies to Ministers, there is a section on the latter rain beginning on page 506 which makes it clear that the work of character perfection will be complete at the end of the latter rain before general probation closes. I think it is only fair to let the reader know if the quote is from Ellen White or not. Right? Back to you! sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted April 17, 2007 Author Posted April 17, 2007 Honestly .... I am tired of your frequent false accusations and refusal to have a discussion on the issues presented. Your only concern is to find out if Ellen White wrote something. You keep changing the topic. It is just impossible to talk with you. Please apologize for the following false accusations ... Quote: So far Red has refused to comment on it! Quote: hmmm so much for answering my questions and no comment on the statements I quoted from T.M.506 Quote: What about the statement you quoted which you claim was from Ellen White. Quote: I can't find that statement from Ellen White which you claim is in 7 B.C.649! Since you were the only one who tried to claim that the 7BC quote was from Ellen White ... HOW do you get off that I made the claim? I simply gave the statement and gave the cite. Do you not accept the Seventh day Adventist Bible Commentary unless it quotes Ellen White? By the way ... I have given and have more Ellen White quotes . But, I think the Bible quotes I gave are sufficient. I have demonstrated enough to show you and I have been tolerant enough of your inconsiderate mannerisms. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 17, 2007 Author Posted April 17, 2007 Quote: "The ripening of the grain represents the completion of the work of God's grace in the soul. Yes ... The work of God's grace is our justification for heaven. Quote: By the power of the Holy Spirit the image of God is to be perfected in the character. We are to be wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ.[/ Yes ... we are to be perfected into the likeness of God. The image of God is to be perfected in the character through the Holy Spirit. Quote: The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man." T.M.506. It is the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man. Sky ... It is you that reads perfect works of the saints before the coming of Christ. I do not read it as you do. But again you have successfully changed the focus of the conversation. You ignore what I say for the sake of preaching what you want to preach. How about you responding to my posts now that I have responded to your focus. I am talking about all those who have died over the past thousands of years. Are they "fit" for Heaven . Have they achieved perfect works? If they go to Heaven are they allowed to continue to sin and have to claim the grace of Jesus to cover the sins they commit in Heaven? If not ... when will they be changed? I will tell you. It is when they see His face. Do you not believe in the statements I have repeatedly quoted? Why don't you respond to them? Quote: It says clearly that this work of perfecting the character, of being wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ is to prepare the church for the coming of Christ! Being transformed into the likeness of Christ will prepare the church for his coming. But ... all have fallen short over the centuries and we continue to fall short. I refuse your perfectionist requirements which are not in the text. Even if you felt it was ... I would like bring you back to what I keep saying .... What about the centuries of sinners. When they raise from their graves ... they are still sinful although forgiven sinners. And since sin will not rise the second time ... these forgiven sinners who are going to Heaven will need to be transformed. Quote: It does not say that this work will be done at the coming of Christ but before the coming of Christ to prepare us for the coming of Christ! Right? It prepares us no doubt. But perfection will not be completed until the second coming. You are reading more into this than is there. Quote: that work is completed before general probation closes! I am not sure why you keep bringing it back to the probation issue. It just confuses things. That is another subject but God is consistant. Perhaps you should start another thread on that topic. I would be happy to participate. For the sake of this discussion it would be helpful keep on topic. And we can do that without referring to probation. We still have the issue of all those sinners from thousands of years going to Heaven. Totally covered by the Grace of God. But sinners. Do you want them in Heaven? Quote: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 "Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649 This post answers all of your accusations. I have answered all of your questions and I gave a quote from the Seventh day Adventist Bible Commentary which I did not say was Ellen White. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 17, 2007 Posted April 17, 2007 The Bible speaks plainly on this subject but as a general rule its teachings are misunderstood or flatly rejected. There would be no need for the repeated testimonies if the word of God was received, believed, and acted upon. 1 Thess.5:23; Eph.4:13-15; 5:26,27 are sufficient to establish the truth that before probation closes God will have a people in whom Christ will be revealed in His fullness by the Holy Spirit's power. "Christ is again to be revealed in His fullness by the Holy Spirit's power." C.O.L.121. Let me ask you a question, coaspen, Do you believe that this last statement is in harmony with the Scriptures quoted above? Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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