Calling sin by its right name...

[Tom Wetmore]

So does anyone sense from a reading of the Coffee topic that EGW tends to throw the word "sin" around a bit loosely?

"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:17.

Tom

[Woody]

Yeap .... she called just about everything a "sin". But I think there was a method to her madness. It just points out that we all sin and therefore need the Robe of Righteousness to COVER our sins. We will always have sin but we are assured that each and everyone of them will be "covered". Therefore they do not lead to death .... we are assured of LIFE in Him.

[Gerr]

Yeap .... she called just about everything a "sin". But I think there was a method to her madness.

I've heard or read some saying that her writings were the product of epileptic seizures. But mad? A mad prophet? That's a new one! I wonder how much better "Desire of Ages", "Education", "Ministry of Healing", "Steps to Christ" & other works would have been if she had been sane!

I'd like to see a sane Redwood produce anything to compare with any of her smallest books that was a product of madness.

Quote:

It just points out that we all sin and therefore need the Robe of Righteousness to COVER our sins. We will always have sin but we are assured that each and everyone of them will be "covered". Therefore they do not lead to death .... we are assured of LIFE in Him.

Sooooooo, because Jesus puts His Robe of Righteousness on me to cover me, I can keep on doing something that I know to be wrong since "we are assured of LIFE in Him" anyway?

Gerry

[Bravus]

Those here who claim that they have completely stopped sinning might want to check their sugar and milk consumption, cooking skills and sleeping habits.

[David Koot]

Quote:

...I can keep on doing something that I know to be wrong since "we are assured of LIFE in Him" anyway?

Redwood insinuates in no way that sentiment.

How about it, Redwood? Who is right here? Gerry or CoAspen?

[Bravus]

Err, and 'method to her madness' is a well known figure of speech suggesting that something that others see as crazy is actually sane, not any sort of allegation of madness.

[Woody]

Err, and 'method to her madness' is a well known figure of speech suggesting that something that others see as crazy is actually sane, not any sort of allegation of madness.

You are right Bravus it was a compliment to EGW but then Gerry and David know that also. They love twisting my words. I don't have a problem with it. They really need to find something to fight about. And I am a good target. But I don't mind. They know what I believe but they keep having to say .... well does that mean I can go on doing what I know is wrong. Yes ... You can and WILL continue to go on sinning. But I do not know of ANY christian who will not have "good works" in his life. As a Christian we will all do "good works". But we WILL fail and we WILL have forgiveness.

[Tom Wetmore]

Those here who claim that they have completely stopped sinning might want to check their sugar and milk consumption, cooking skills and sleeping habits.

And don't forget the sin of forgetfulness, but be sure not to sin off in the other direction by committing the sin of excessive cogitation, And if anyone is getting sick and tired of all this you need to remember that she also said being sick was a sin and I assume being tired would be a sign of not enough sleep which is a sin and my favorite, which only a blind man can be found faultless, the sin of "seeing"....

Guilty of all of the above, I guess... :duno

Tom

[John317]

So does anyone sense from a reading of the Coffee topic that EGW tends to throw the word "sin" around a bit loosely?

"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:17.

Tom

It may seem so at first reading but if we consider everything she and the Bible say about sin, we may come to a different conclusion.

How about Ellen White's startling, almost unbelievable statement: "It is a sin to be sick..."?

But let's read the whole statement in context: "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin; but it is nevertheless their duty to ascertain wherein their parents violated the laws of their being, which has entailed upon their offspring so miserable an inheritance; and wherein their parents' habits were wrong, they should change their course, and place themselves by correct habits in a better relation to health." Counsels On Health, p. 37.

Then also consider a few more statements that I believe help us understand why she said what she said above:

"Knowledge must be gained in regard to how to eat and drink and dress so as to preserve health. Sickness is the result of violating nature's law. Our first duty, one which we owe to God, to ourselves, and to our fellow men, is to obey the laws of God. These include the laws of health." CH 24, 25.

"A continual transgression of nature's laws is a continual transgression of the law of God...When men take any course which needlessly expends their vitality or beclouds their intellect, they sin against God..." CH 20

"Every needless transgression of the laws which God has established in our being is virtually a violation of the law of God, and is as great a sin in the sight of Heaven as to break the Ten Commandments. Ignorance upon this important subject is sin... All should have an intelligent knowledge of the human frame, that they may keep their bodies in the condition necessary to do the work of the Lord." CH 40, 41

Ellen White is using "sin" in the Biblical sense of being a failure to live up to God's ideal or God's plan for us. God commanded, "You shall not murder." We can slowly murder ourselves by our bad habits such as eating wrongly and not exercising.

A non-SDA theologian, Wayne Grudem, defined sin as "any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature." (Systematic Theology, p. 490.) If God's ideal or plan is for us to be healthy, any time we do things that keep us from being healthy, it is a sin. For instance, I'm a diabetic today partly because of my heredity (grandpa died of it) but also because I foolishly (and sinfully) did things I shouldn't have done and didn't do things I ought to have done. I know now that it was a sin on my part. I also used to drink coffee because at my work I felt I had to do it in order to stay awake all night. I stopped drinking it about a year ago and as a result my blood pressure is normal again.

Do you have any other examples of where it appears to you that Ellen White used the word sin a bit loosely?

[Tom Wetmore]

John,

My post just before yours lists some of the more entertaining examples which I had already identified in the coffee topic.

As for the "It's a sin to be sick" statement, context doesn't help very much, other than to dig the hole deeper. And to me it is in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus in John 9 to his disciples' direct question about whose sin caused the man to be blind. Jesus said, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned." Very often, sickness and tragedy happen to very innocent people. Yes, it is the result of living in a flawed and sinful world, but to state it the way it is and the way many sincere Adventists hammer it home, because EGW said it, it is unjustly assigning blame and guilt for the sin of the victims of sin.

Calling anything and everything sin, dilutes the concept to the point of meaninglessness.

Tom

[John317]

John,

As for the "It's a sin to be sick" statement, context doesn't help very much, other than to dig the hole deeper. And to me it is in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus in John 9 to his disciples' direct question about whose sin caused the man to be blind. Jesus said, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned." Very often, sickness and tragedy happen to very innocent people. Yes, it is the result of living in a flawed and sinful world, but to state it the way it is and the way many sincere Adventists hammer it home, because EGW said it, it is unjustly assigning blame and guilt for the sin of the victims of sin...Tom

All sickness is the result of someone's transgression of the laws of health. But that doesn't mean all sickness is because of the sin of the sick person. Ellen White's statements would not include those people who are born with defects or with some illness such as AIDS. Nor, of course, would they apply to people who get AIDS from a blood transfusion. I really don't think that Ellen White would disagree with what you say about sickness sometimes happening to innocent people. There are always exceptions to the general rule, but I think that we would all agree that most cases of sickness occur when people neglect to do something or else do something they shouldn't. That's certainly the case, for instance, with diabetes and lung cancer, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc. It's obvious that Ellen White's references to sickness as being sin have to do with people who do not try to find out how to be healthy or who don't do what they know results in good health. I'm guilty of this myself. Also, it's of interest to note that Ellen White was often sick. But she learned from her errors and didn't continue bad health practices once she became aware of them.

Of course both the Bible and Ellen White emphasize how essential it is to show love and sympathy and to give help to everyone who is sick irrespective of the cause of the illness.

[Amelia]

Quote:

But let's read the whole statement in context: "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin; but it is nevertheless their duty to ascertain wherein their parents violated the laws of their being, which has entailed upon their offspring so miserable an inheritance; and wherein their parents' habits were wrong, they should change their course, and place themselves by correct habits in a better relation to health."

Soooooo we are all sinning everytime we get a cold?

[Tom Wetmore]

...I really don't think that Ellen White would disagree with what you say about sickness sometimes happening to innocent people....

But the point being, that is not what she said or how she said it or how most every EGW apologist preaches her words as being the word of God. Here and elswhere, including in most of the oddball sin references I have already alluded to, EGW makes unqualified, unequivocal, dogmatic statements that such and such is sin, the transgression of God's moral law. Her statement even in context is "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

I would like to hear your explanation of the sin of "seeing", or some of the other priceless stones used to pelt the life out of sinners.

Tom

[olger]

C'mon Tom. Are we eagerly siezing abstract examples in order to disregard what she had to say? Hope not..

This is olger signing off.

[Woody]

Olger ... it is the ones that throw the Ellen White books at people who are being abstract. If the Ellen White supporters would just admit that she makes mistakes then we could have clarity. But to make her infallible means that you have to excuse away the words that Tom pointed out. You have to be very inconsistant in contorting how to read and interpret her.

Just go ahead and admit it. Ellen White is not ALWAYS to be believed. She has some good that we can benefit from. But she also has some that we can toss ...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...I really don't think that Ellen White would disagree with what you say about sickness sometimes happening to innocent people....

But the point being, that is not what she said or how she said it or how most every EGW apologist preaches her words as being the word of God. Here and elswhere, including in most of the oddball sin references I have already alluded to, EGW makes unqualified, unequivocal, dogmatic statements that such and such is sin, the transgression of God's moral law. Her statement even in context is "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

I would like to hear your explanation of the sin of "seeing", or some of the other priceless stones used to pelt the life out of sinners.

Tom

You know what Ellen White's response was to people who came to her with objections on some things such as you bring up here? She would say to them, "Use common sense." Tom, you have to take into account everything she's said on a subject, just like you do the Bible. Do you know how many people quote a verse here and there and then try to show from them that the Bible contradicts itself or that the Bible is full of lies? It happens all the time. People do the same with Ellen White's writings. Why? For the same reason they do it with the Bible.

If you read the context of the sentence about its being a sin to be sick, you will see that she is not saying it is necessarily every individual sick-person who is sinning, but that sickness itself is the result of someone's sin. She says we have an obligation to learn how to avoid sickness. That sounds very reasonable to me. Do you know how many people don't try to find out how to avoid sickness but instead keep getting the same illness over and over again? That is what she is talking about.

[Ron Lambert]

There are two ways we commonly use "sin" as a noun. When we actively do what we know is wrong, showing we doubt God by violating His will, we call that sin. But we also live in a sinful world, which is so contaminated by unbelief, rebellion, and all its consequences, that we can call anything in this world sin.

[John317]

Olger ... it is the ones that throw the Ellen White books at people who are being abstract. If the Ellen White supporters would just admit that she makes mistakes then we could have clarity. But to make her infallible means that you have to excuse away the words that Tom pointed out. You have to be very inconsistant in contorting how to read and interpret her.

Just go ahead and admit it. Ellen White is not ALWAYS to be believed. She has some good that we can benefit from. But she also has some that we can toss ...

I don't think anyone here believes that Ellen White was/is infallible. And of course she made mistakes. The same can be said about the Bible and about the prophets and apostles. How often the Israelites said the same about Moses! How often the Corinthians said the same-- and worse-- about Paul!

But the problem is that we have a tendency to try to excuse ourselves and avoid obeying, by saying the prophet is not correct about something simply because it disagrees with our ideas or with what we want to do. Instead of studying to find out how true something is, we are studying to find out how wrong something is. For instance, when it comes to Ellen White's statement about its being a sin to be sick, instead of reading it in context and seeing that she is talking about its being someone's sin, we are jumping to the conclusion that she is saying every sick person is sick because of their own sins. And so we conclude prematurely Ellen White was wrong before we even understand what she was really saying.

[Woody]

There are some who will excuse each and every thing that Ellen White says by searching to find some twisted way of interpreting what she says. It will not be a consistant way of reading her though. Each time they will find a new way to excuse what she says. Context has nothing to do with it. What it is ... is a way to force her ideas on everyone at all costs. It is blind acceptance of her. Instead of searching scriptures and finding TRUTH. They search and find ways to CONFIRM her teachings.

But hey that is fine.It is their way. The only problem here is that they condemn all those who do not believe her way. The quote below is evidence of this ....

Quote:

saying the prophet is not correct about something simply because it disagrees with our ideas

They do the same with THEIR ideas.

[John317]

There are two ways we commonly use "sin" as a noun. When we actively do what we know is wrong, showing we doubt God by violating His will, we call that sin. But we also live in a sinful world, which is so contaminated by unbelief, rebellion, and all its consequences, that we can call anything in this world sin.

That's true, we have to be careful about judging people for their sins, because we simply don't know people's hearts. We can only go by what people do and say, and that means we don't know a lot about the circumstances under which people live and struggle. Our whole world is contaminated with sin and disease, and not everyone who is affected is directly responsible. We also do well to remember that as "the god of this world," Satan is able to cause even great men of faith like Job a lot of sickness and suffering.

[John317]

... Context has nothing to do with it. What it is ... is a way to force her ideas on everyone at all costs. It is blind acceptance of her. Instead of searching scriptures and finding TRUTH. They search and find ways to CONFIRM her teachings...

I think you would agree that context is always important when it comes to trying to understand what Ellen White or anyone else writes. I am sure you would agree that it's true of the Bible. In the issue before us, for instance, the context shows that Ellen White was not saying every sick person is sick because of his own personal sin.

I don't think anyone is trying to force Ellen White's ideas on others. I believe in people being free to make those kinds of choices and so did Ellen White. We are all free here to state our understanding. You are free to tell us yours. Remember, we are talking about discussing what she said, and we are doing this in the context of a website where people-- all sides of an issue or question-- are free to express themselves and also free to come and go just as they like.

Do you think it's Okay to search and find ways to CONFIRM the Bible? I certainly do.

When it comes to Christ and His word, I'm not an objective bystander or observer. I'm a partisan and I know you are too.

[Ron Lambert]

Of course Ellen G. White was not infallible. God did not prevent her from ever saying or writing anything wrong--that would have violated her free will. But He did give her messages to communicate to the church. And even beyond that, we ought to respect her opinions, since she was a sister of real experience, who talked to Jesus and to angels face-to-face. Even her "personal opinion" should be given great weight.

But her writings must never take the place of the Bible. All we believe about faith and doctrine, Bible prophecy, etc., must be based on the Bible alone. Her faith was based on the Bible alone. If we base our position on anything on Ellen White's writings alone, we are misusing them. If we cannot prove our position on any topic from the Bible alone, then we are not qualified to participaate in the debate. If we truly respect her prophetic office, then we should first of all do what she says, and base our beliefs on the Bible alone. She described herself as "a lesser light" to bring us back to "the greater light" of the Bible.

[John317]

Of course Ellen G. White was not infallible. God did not prevent her from ever saying or writing anything wrong--that would have violated her free will. But He did give her messages to communicate to the church. And even beyond that, we ought to respect her opinions, since she was a sister of real experience, who talked to Jesus and to angels face-to-face. Even her "personal opinion" should be given great weight.

But her writings must never take the place of the Bible. All we believe about faith and doctrine, Bible prophecy, etc., must be based on the Bible alone. Her faith was based on the Bible alone. If we base our position on anything on Ellen White's writings alone, we are misusing them. If we cannot prove our position on any topic from the Bible alone, then we are not qualified to participaate in the debate. If we truly respect her prophetic office, then we should first of all do what she says, and base our beliefs on the Bible alone. She described herself as "a lesser light" to bring us back to "the greater light" of the Bible.

I really like your statement: "If we base our position on anything on Ellen White's writings alone, we are misusing them." I agree with everything you said here, but I feel it's necessary to add that some people may misunderstand a discussion where we are trying to understand what Ellen White taught or said. Under those circumstances, we are not trying to show what the Bible says. We are trying first of all to establish what Ellen White said, and then we try to establish whether there is agreement between what she said and what the Bible says. But often it is important just to know what it was that she taught on a particular subject.

[Woody]

Quote:

Of course Ellen G. White was not infallible. God did not prevent her from ever saying or writing anything wrong--that would have violated her free will.

Please give some examples of where her beliefs were wrong.

[Tom Wetmore]

Redwood, that sure brought this conversation to screeching halt!! (Just looked at the time tags for the last 10 posts)

Tom