Calling sin by its right name...

[Tom Wetmore]

...context...

Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

...There are two ways we commonly use "sin" as a noun...

The context of this topic came about with certain persons' use of EGW quotes that drinking coffee is a sin. Go back and read through that topic and ask yourself which common use of "sin" was intended by those posters?

Tom

[olger]

The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.

[Tom Wetmore]

...and how do you specifically apply this to this topic in a practical and realistic way?

Or to put it more plainly - And your point is?

[Planey]

The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.

[olger]

No. Relative to calling sin by it's right name.

The reason it is the greatest want is because men such as this (see above quote) are in short supply (to our shame, Brethren).

oG

[Neil D]

The reason it is the greatest want is because men such as this (see above quote) are in short supply (to our shame, Brethren).oG

Unfortunely, it is embedded into our coulture, and when those of us call sin by it's right name, we get chastised and get harrassed by "the brothern"....

The irony of this statement is just amazing....

[David Koot]

...and how do you specifically apply this to this topic in a practical and realistic way?

Reviewing various online discussions can provide some examples. When someone points out that EGW warned against the use of coffee, s/he is often subject to ridicule. Even when such persons refer to medical/health evidence, they are ridiculed. Another example: when someone points out the importance of following the counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy, s/he if often subjected to ridicule. Good examples of this may be found in referring to her statements against the wearing of jewelry, participating in worldly amusements, carelessness about keeping the Sabbath, competitive sports, dancing, etc. Even the mention of these items will often subject a person to ridicule. One may easily find examples of that by reviewing the pages of online discussions. It appears that there are 'Politically Correct' mores which individuals are expected to abide by. Transgression of those mores will result in ridicule and social isolation, as occurs in many cultural groups.

[Woody]

Quote:

When someone points out that EGW warned against the use of coffee, s/he is subject to ridicule.

I confess .... I was the one that quoted Ellen White warning against the use of Coffee and calling it sin. However ... I did not experience any ridicule. So ... I do not know where this is coming from. I feel it is a false accusation against Club Adventist members.

[olger]

Hi Neil. It wasn't always embedded in our culture, although I agree that it is currently. As near as I can tell, the phenomenon of passive men began in the early 60's. It was fortified in 1971 with the Archie Bunker syndrome, the passive, easy chair male who was a buffoon in most of life's situations.

In an attempt to swim against the tide, Focus on the Family created the person of Mr. Whitaker to help remind our sick culture what true manhood looks like. Hollywood has done an admirable job of tearing down the house in this area alone.

Through a woman who is now dead (egw), the Lord communicated that there would be a great attack on true manhood.

In contemporary society, Laura Schlessinger and many others have raised the cry as well. It must begin with us men. We cannot blame society, culture, women, parents, or politics any longer.

oG

[Amelia]

Quote:

Laura Schlessinger

Honestly, I can't see how this woman can give advice on marriage and family when she is so very anti-men. I can't listen to her without getting angry.

[Woody]

Quote:

Laura Schlessinger

Honestly, I can't see how this woman can give advice on marriage and family when she is so very anti-men. I can't listen to her without getting angry.

Amelia ... That is why Olger likes her. Olger puts men in their place. At least he/she seems to attempt to do that to me.!!

[olger]

Hi Amelia. Olger here.

I am puzzled at your statement that Laura "is anti-men". I could provide a whole series of quotes that dispel that. Are you serious here? Could you provide some references?

Thanks,

oG

[Taylor]

Quote:

Laura Schlessinger

Honestly, I can't see how this woman can give advice on marriage and family when she is so very anti-men. I can't listen to her without getting angry.

Really? I see her anti deadbeats no matter who they are. I have heard her be really rough on women callers and "tell it like it is" not just men callers. While she often tells the "truth" I often do not care for the way she does it as she can be too abrasive. I rarely listen to her since moving to CA but I have never thought her to be against anything other than irresponsible, selfish people regardless of their gender. She is very profamily, putting the kids first before career or relationships, and not sticking one's nose in the business of others, but doing right yourself for yourself and your kids or your spouse regardless what others think or do. But she can be very rough in her way of saying things and that is what buggs me about her.

[Tom Wetmore]

So Ger, do I understand you correctly that apparently "calling sin be its right name" is a manly task, men's work if you will?

[lazarus]

Quote:

Good examples of this may be found in referring to her statements against the wearing of jewelry, participating in worldly amusements, carelessness about keeping the Sabbath, competitive sports, dancing, etc. Even the mention of these items will often subject a person to ridicule.

I think the church in the past has done a very good job at calling out those sins. In the past it has also neglected to call out other sins.

Sexual abuse was covered up. Racism was tolerated and embraced. Injustices were done in disfellowshiping females but not males involved in sexual sin. Even today pointing out some of theses issues can invite ridicule and and can get people fired.

[Amelia]

Quote:

I am puzzled at your statement that Laura "is anti-men". I could provide a whole series of quotes that dispel that. Are you serious here? Could you provide some references?

Sorry no. I don't listen to her anymore and haven't in a long time. I just remember in the past her being very hard on men and more towards women being the pants in the family.

[John317]

Quote:

When someone points out that EGW warned against the use of coffee, s/he is subject to ridicule.

I confess .... I was the one that quoted Ellen White warning against the use of Coffee and calling it sin. However ... I did not experience any ridicule. So ... I do not know where this is coming from. I feel it is a false accusation against Club Adventist members.

I think David was most likely referring to those who quote Mrs. White on the dangers of coffee with the view that Mrs. White is to be believed on that and other issues. I could be wrong but I seriously doubt he was referring to those who quote Sister White in order to cast doubt on her authority or her views. I would hope those people would not be ridiculed, anyway. Why not? Because we are to show love for everyone, and especially for those with whom we disagree. Even criminals and the unsaved are able to be amiable to people whom they find perfectly agreeable. I've noticed that those who support Ellen White on those issues rarely if ever on CA call people pejorative names-- at least I have not seen any since I came here.

In my opinion, it is okay to say someone's argument or viewpoint appears to be legalistic, but it isn't mature or appropriate to become personal and call people legalists or other names because they don't see eye to eye with us. "Do to others as you would have them do to you." To do that is to have the mind of Christ and thus fulfill His law.

[Woody]

John .... What do you call accusing people of ridicule when they haven't done it ....

Quote:

It is truly unfortunate that you resort to ridicule

[LifeHiscost]

How about Ellen White's startling, almost unbelievable statement: "It is a sin to be sick..."?

Some of us may even escape that one, but I recall another even more surprising (at least to me__ I promise not to fight anyone to the death if they challenge me on this one)

"It is a sin to be forgetful"

Can't remember the context but whatever it is, if our works are what determine our entrance into the kingdom there is a big need for someone to give me a lot of reminders. Maybe that's why God chooses to repeat Himself so much.

"For when the world with all its earthly wisdom failed to perceive and recognize and know God by means of its own philosophy, God in His wisdom was pleased through the foolishness of preaching [salvation, procured by Christ and to be had through Him], to save those who believed (who clung to and trusted in and relied on Him)." 1 Cor 1:21 AMP

And both those actions are pretty well covered by this statement from the Word,

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

1 Cor 10:31 KJV

Blessings!!

[John317]

Olger ... If the Ellen White supporters would just ...

But don't you consider yourself one of those who support Ellen White?

[LifeHiscost]

Soooooo we are all sinning everytime we get a cold?

My wife and I have found a couple of very simple habits that have removed us from 99% of those colds, Amelia, if you would be interested. It's obvious that trust in God is the paramount but there are a couple of things very simple that don't cost much time or effort beyond a modicum of eating healthy. I would PM it for there seems to be quite a bit of adverse reaction whenever the possibility lies in someone's lifestyle that hasn't been accepted by the majority of Adventist believers.

Blessings!!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How about Ellen White's startling, almost unbelievable statement: "It is a sin to be sick..."?

Some of us may even escape that one, but I recall another even more surprising (at least to me__ I promise not to fight anyone to the death if they challenge me on this one)

"It is a sin to be forgetful"

Can't remember the context but whatever it is, if our works are what determine our entrance into the kingdom there is a big need for someone to give me a lot of reminders. Maybe that's why God chooses to repeat Himself so much.

I saw today in (I believe) Counsels on Health or Diet & Foods where Ellen White said it was a sin to place poor or unhealthful food on the table.

Such statements may seem harsh or unreasonable to readers, I agree. But whether something sounds that way will frankly depend to a great degree on our heart condition and spiritual walk. For instance, I have a non-religious friend who thinks it is harsh and unreasonable for God to prohibit fornication. Many people think it's harsh and unreasonable to command Sabbath keeping or to prohibit lust or illicit desire.

When it comes to putting unhealthful food on the table, I can see why Ellen White says it is a sin. It is a sin because it shows an attitude of carelessness or thoughtlessnes towards one's health. Thus it is really a careless attitude toward someone for whom Christ sacrificed His own life. If such an attitude is continued, it could end in suffering and premature death. So, it becomes more reasonable and to look less harsh the more you consider all the factors involved.

I will look into the statement you say you saw in her writings. I seem to remember something like that, too. I'd like to look into the context.

I'll go ahead and say this at the risk of sounding like I am saying Ellen White's books are to be viewed as Holy Scripture: I think that when it comes to her writings, we should take to heart what the Holy Spirit inspired Peter to write in 2 Peter 3: 15-18 about Paul's letters. Before jumping to the conclusion that she is wrong, I would be willing to give her the benifit of the doubt and wait until I have more information before deciding to toss something she says. It's the same with the Bible. File something away in our mind that we don't fully understand or have some question about, and then wait to make a decision on it until we have further information or see a solution. Most of the time we find it. Think how foolish some critics of the Bible look today because they rejected the Bible as historically unreliable when their doubts would have been answered if only they had waited a century to see the nations and people the Bible mentions really did exist.

[LifeHiscost]

Calling anything and everything sin, dilutes the concept to the point of meaninglessness.

Maybe accepting just a couple of principles might make it more clear about the reality of accepting personal responsibility.

"But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

It's really not that hard to accept when God is taken at His Word and we realize He rewards us for His works done for us while He received the reward of which we are deserving.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

" John 3:17 KJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

There are two ways we commonly use "sin" as a noun. When we actively do what we know is wrong, showing we doubt God by violating His will, we call that sin. But we also live in a sinful world, which is so contaminated by unbelief, rebellion, and all its consequences, that we can call anything in this world sin.

we simply don't know people's hearts. We can only go by what people do and say, and that means we don't know a lot about the circumstances under which people live and struggle.

I recall as a young Adventist, teaching a class where my own heart was moved by the subject of the lesson, so much so that it appeared the height of nominal christianity when a person sitting in the first row in front of me was sound asleep. While I still had enough wisdom not to awaken the person by a direct question, when the class was dismissed my thoughts failed to reflect the love of Christ for the weakest of sinners.

Later in the service when everyone was filing out, the individual directly involved, came up to me and apologized for her lapse, stating she had diabetes and found it very difficult to stay awake.

How grateful I was that the Lord gave me enough wisdom that time, not to do something stupid to which my inner thoughts could have led. I haven't always fared so well in similar incidents.

"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41 NASB

Thank God for a Savior that is not as heartless as the general trend of men.

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Just go ahead and admit it. Ellen White is not ALWAYS to be believed. She has some good that we can benefit from. But she also has some that we can toss ...

That is, of course, the general attitude of the population who believe themselves pretty good people with little need to reform or repent.

"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" Revelation 3:17 KJV

If that was where Jesus left us, it wouldn't be much worth struggling when a reformer makes us uncomfortable. However we always have Jesus' subsequent encouragement. Sometimes the reformer doesn't feel that need as strongly as Jesus felt it.

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Revelation 3:19 KJV

Blessings!!