Calling sin by its right name...

[phkrause]

I really liked what you said Laz, very good point.

pkrause

[olger]

"When I use the word fallibility I did not mean that she was wrong. I meant that because she is a human being the way she chooses to express herself is not always the most effective in communicating an idea. I could easily misunderstand and misapply what she said even if I read it in context."

That seems to be in harmony with Peter's treatment of some of Paul's writings. The problem wasn't Paul perhaps, but those who were willing to wrest his words.

regards,

olger

[LifeHiscost]

Sometimes, sickness just happens....

‘Don’t come too close or you will defile me!

I am holier than you!’

These people are a stench in my nostrils,

an acrid smell that never goes away.

“Look, my decree is written out in front of me:

I will not stand silent;

I will repay them in full! Isaiah 65:5,6 NLT

I'm happy I don't have to guess who is at fault for my difficulties, whether or not I or someone else is at fault. I realize the Christian is not in a competition to see who is "holier than thou". Usually the thoughts that run through my head when "tribulations" occur, are (when serious enough and I'm thoughtful enough) "Lord, what could I have done to avoid these circumstances?". It's usually not too difficult to determine there is something I could have done differently to make life easier.

As to the above quote, Neil:

"Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow, So a curse without cause shall not alight." Proverbs 26:2 NKJV

One doesn't have to believe that. It is not mandatory. The way one believes will determine how much is gained by those Words.

I do know this. Having chosen to make God sovereign in my life, I also know He is never unjust in anything He permits in my life. And that includes all the ridicule, accusations, and contrarinous of those around me who openly profess the stupidity of believing in a Sovereighn God Who's Son died so that we could dwell with Him in His kingdom, hopefully traveling there in the company of those He's chosen to save as a result of the prayers given by others for them.

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

Why thank you LHC. But praise to our Father, I have not had cold in years.

Your welcome, Amelia. So glad you've found that there's more joy when praise precedes deliverance. By the way, what's a zim? That creature as an avatar looks like a pear that grew a beak?

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

My question I guess is .... Are we accepted when we live up to the light we have? OR are we held responsible for sins that we don't know are sins?

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34 KJV

"Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality," Acts 10:34 NASB

Regards!!

[Amelia]

Quote:

By the way, what's a zim

ROFL Zim is a little grumpy green parakeet :zim

[LifeHiscost]

:zim

Thank you. Cute little guy. I didn't know they came in grumpy. But then I never met one named Zim. Maybe that's why he's so grumpy. You know, like a boy named Sue.

[John317]

...When I use the word fallibility I did not mean that she was wrong. I meant that because she is a human being the way she chooses to express herself is not always the most effective in communicating an idea. I could easily misunderstand and misapply what she said even if I read it in context.

The same thing happens with scripture. God uses human beings to communicate truth and sometimes the truth is not always crystal clear to us. That is evident by the length of this thread.

I'm in agreement with both you and David. I think you are both saying the same thing on this.

[John317]

Let's not forget that Ellen White herself was often very sick. She was sick during much of the writing of Desire of Ages. There were times when Satan attacked her. But there were other times she was sick because of failure to follow the laws of health.

I know what you mean, Laz, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Ellen White was mistaken in what she said about its being a sin to be sick. Of course she is not saying that includes Job's affliction which was brought on directly by Satan with God's permission.

If we take the context into consideration, as well as the many other things she says about illness, it's clear-- as you already know-- she is talking about the necessity of finding out why we get sick and then taking steps to avoid illness. She writes about its being one of our first and most important responsibilities in life to know our own bodies and the laws governing them. We might get sick because of the practices of our parents, but we have a duty to make the needed changes so we won't stay in that situation. How many of us fail to do this! All of our bodies are different and react to food differently. What she said is in line with what she says elsewhere that a violation of the law of our physical being is virtually the same as a violation of the moral law. That is very different from what most Christians believe, though, so we shouldn't be surprised that there's also even a lot of disagreement among SDAs about it as well. People just don't take lightly being told what to eat, especially when it comes to their favorite foods. I know about this real well because I'm having to quit eating a lot of stuff I love because of diabetes. This comes from failing to do for a long time what I knew I should do. Ellen White writes a lot about the dangers of sugar, etc., but I didn't pay attention until it was too late.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White writes a lot about the dangers of sugar, etc., but I didn't pay attention until it was too late.

Were you continuing to sin willfully? If you had died at that point would you have been lost?

[lazarus]

I know what you mean, Laz, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Ellen White was mistaken in what she said about its being a sin to be sick.

I wasn't saying she was mistaken either. I think the way she expressed the idea can be misleading. It can give the wrong impression. Perhaps in her time her words made perfect sense and the expression sin to be sick was clear. Its not "crystal" to me in 2007

As an aside....

Jesus never sinned

Its a sin to be sick

Jesus never got sick...not even so much as a cold, fever, stomach ache....etc.

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen White writes a lot about the dangers of sugar, etc., but I didn't pay attention until it was too late.

Were you continuing to sin willfully? If you had died at that point would you have been lost?

Willful sin of the kind you are describing is sin that we have been convicted of and are conscious of its being a sin at the time we commit it/them. Temptation is not sin. If a thought comes into our mind, and we become aware that it is a sinful thought, it is not a sin if we make the decision to get rid of the thought and then follow through with that decision. It is a sin only when we dwell on it and hold on to it. This is certainly true if we take Christ as our example and go by His teachings on the subject. He was tempted but he did not sin. No one can force us to sin. Sin is a choice. Of course, this is assuming that we're talking about people who have been born from above and in whom Christ abides by faith through the Holy Spirit. People living in the flesh-- driven by the flesh-- can't stop sinning. Compare Romans 6-8, 2 Peter 1 and 1 John Chapters 3 to 5.

It's important to remember that the mind that went into the grave is the same mind that is resurrected. If the mind was deliberately sinning against God when it went into the grave, it will be deliberately sinning against God when it's resurrected. Christ makes no changes in a person's thinking or mind when He returns. We receive new bodies but not new minds or new personalities. Our characters remain the same as they are at death or at the return of Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I know what you mean, Laz, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Ellen White was mistaken in what she said about its being a sin to be sick.

I wasn't saying she was mistaken either. I think the way she expressed the idea can be misleading. It can give the wrong impression. Perhaps in her time her words made perfect sense and the expression sin to be sick was clear. Its not "crystal" to me in 2007

As an aside....

Jesus never sinned

Its a sin to be sick

Jesus never got sick...not even so much as a cold, fever, stomach ache....etc.

Well, I completely agree with you that we would have to be careful about telling people simply that it is a sin to be sick. I would want to do some explaining first, and to be frank, it would be a while before I would tell them that it's a sin to be sick because, as you say, they would not understand anyway, and it could only cause them consternation at the very least.

About Jesus not being sick-- we know that he was acquainted with sickness and knew pains and carried our sorrows. At Isaiah 53:3 4, the word that the KJV translates as "griefs" carries the meaning of "sickness." The 10th verse is sometimes translated as, "The Lord made him [Christ] sick." But that doesn't mean Jesus was Himself sick. He also bore our sins, and our transgressions were laid on Him. Yet of course He Himself never sinned. The Gospels never describe Him as being sick, except perhaps when He felt deeply grieved in the garden just before his arrest. Matthew 26: 38. I wouldn't be at all surprised if at some point during that garden experience, Jesus felt terribly, physically sick, so sick in fact that he felt like he was going to die even before he reached the cross.

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen White writes a lot about the dangers of sugar, etc., but I didn't pay attention until it was too late.

Were you continuing to sin willfully? If you had died at that point would you have been lost?

I don't get too much into personal matters at CA because these kinds of things are really best left between individuals and God. But I will say a few things about that because I think it could help someone.

I've read more about what Ellen White wrote about sugar in the last two weeks since I was told I have diabetes than I read in all of the previous 30 years. I'm aware now of things that I gave little or no thought to before because I was always strong and healthy and therefore I stupidly took it for granted that I always would be.

I actually ate a whole gallon of ice-cream and the week before that I ate a whole lemon pie all by myself over the weekend. I remember that when I started to get the ice-cream out of the freezer, the thought came clearly into my mind, "No, don't eat it," but I went ahead and did it anyway. The thought was so clear that it seemed almost like an audible voice. Now I think it is likely that what I heard was the Holy Spirit but when it happened I didn't think of that. I was just thinking of how good that ice-cream was going to taste.

I am convinced now that eating all that sugar is what caused me to come down with flu-like symptoms a day or so after that. I usually got well fast but this time I remained sick with a fever for five days. No doubt my elevated blood sugar made it difficult for my body to fight off the flu virus. I was told this past week during a course on diabetes that getting sick with the flu can actually be the trigger in some predisposed people that brings on the diabetes.

Anyway, I recognized some symptoms of having diabetes at that point, and sure enough, when I went to the doctor's, I told him what I thought and it was confirmed by the blood test. (I knew something about it because while an army medic I worked in the battalion dispensary as a doctor's assistant.)

[nuff sed]

I have a problem with people talking about "sins' as if they were objects of some sort. IMO sin is an attitude. Anything that gets between you and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is "sin". That's why I do not classify the "Ten Commandments" as the "Law" of God. IMO the "law' is simply "Love". God in His love and mercy has pointed out the ten danger areas that could separate us from His love. Positive instead of negative. This is not an original idea. I got it many years ago from an article by Smuts Van Royen. (written in the "MV Kit") ( I wish that I could find the original article) Regards, Don

[olger]

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake."

[Woody]

I have a problem with people talking about "sins' as if they were objects of some sort. IMO sin is an attitude. Anything that gets between you and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is "sin". That's why I do not classify the "Ten Commandments" as the "Law" of God. IMO the "law' is simply "Love". God in His love and mercy has pointed out the ten danger areas that could separate us from His love. Positive instead of negative. This is not an original idea. I got it many years ago from an article by Smuts Van Royen. (written in the "MV Kit") ( I wish that I could find the original article) Regards, Don

Thank you Don. This is a very important thought. Yes. Sin is rebellion against God. It is an attitude against God. It is ANYTHING that seperates us from Him. Thanks. It sure is a shame that Ellen White didn't learn this lesson. She could have saved a lot of trees if she had known this.

[Taylor]

I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone here because I do hear what people are saying and I agree totally. However, I think EGW did learn this lesson. She talks about specific sins but so does the Bible. But she talked more about the relationship and reflecting Jesus than she did on sins.

I think a way to look at it is this. When the Children of Israel were first out of captivity, God had to give them the law and spell out what they could and couldn't do, because they had lost sight of God and had no clue how to live. This wasn't because he didn't want a relationship but because these points have to do with relationships and preserving them.

I think both emphasis are necessary.

But yes I also agree with Don that sin is much broader and deeper than anything listed as a sin in the sense that sin is ANYTHING that stands in the way between us and God, anything that gets in the way of us reflecting Jesus to a dying world.

[Woody]

This is good.

God would much rather point us to relationship rather than warn us of individual sins.

Look at the example of the Sabbath. God purposefully didn't give us a list of sins that we might commit by improper Sabbath observance. Instead ... he left that up to the Jews.

Somehow though Ellen White got sucked into the trap of making lists of sins and I think personally that she went overboard on this emphasis.

[LifeHiscost]

Christ makes no changes in a person's thinking or mind when He returns. We receive new bodies but (1) not new minds or new personalities. Our characters remain the same as they are at death or at the return of Christ.

The underlined above implies that there will be some time before the actual return of Christ, no matter the shortness of that time, in which the Holy Word will not be true amd the Holy Spirit will no longer be convicting sinners of their need, a dangerous position to take especially when trying to reach the hearts of those who have but a short time to yield their life to Christ.

"...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 NASB

While it is true there will come a time when

Rev 22:11 will be true, ("He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.") , it is also true we must be prepared to declare certain scripture untrue when that time arrives.

Looking deep within my own soul and observing others, even those being used of God in a positive way, I'm not prepared to call any of the scripture as untrue, except those which God has ordained to express a contrast between the soul without the Holy Spirit's guidance as opposed to those who are born again.

As an example, the words of Solomon, written to express his thoughts during a period when he walked contrary to the Spirit's guidance.

"A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things." Eccl 10:19 KJV

I'm waiting expectantly for this below to happen to me. When it happens to the minds of all God's children on this earth, then He will come.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor 15:53 KJV

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

It seems important to recognize the Scripture does not say "for this corrupt", as opposed to "this corruptible".

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23

KJV

"The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. " 2 Pet 2:9 NLT

Regards!!

[Woody]

According to Ellen White we will not be taking our characters to Heaven.

They will need to be transformed when we see His face so that we will be fit for heaven.

All of our characters she describes as sinful and faulty.

[LifeHiscost]

Somehow though Ellen White got sucked into the trap of making lists of sins and I think personally that she went overboard on this emphasis.

Would that be more or less overboard than this?

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

1 Corinthians 10:31 KJV

Regards!!

[olger]

Poor Ellen. I guess she just didn't know much about salvation. Sleep on Sister, Jesus will come back soon.

I got an email from a guy in Washington last week, asking me about Adventists and German Baptists. He had a problem with Ellen White and was thinking about joining the church of my fathers.

I'll post my answer later,

olger

[LifeHiscost]

My point is the opposite of what I said. Clearly, the bible reveals in Job's situation his sickness was NOT becasue of his sin. In fact Job suffered because of his righteousness. He ws sick because he was righteous!

[aldona]

Not a reply to anyone specific, just adding my $0.02 worth to the whole "it's a sin to be sick" debate...

Our church youth group recently watched a film about Father Damian of Molokai. This was the (true) story about a Catholic priest who dedicated his life to working with people suffering from leprosy. As a result of spending his time among them, he also got leprosy and died.

How does this fit into the "it's a sin to be sick" idea? Or was this man sick because of his unselfish service to others who were sick?

aldona