Calling sin by its right name...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Christ makes no changes in a person's thinking or mind when He returns. We receive new bodies but (1) not new minds or new personalities. Our characters remain the same as they are at death or at the return of Christ.

The underlined above implies that there will be some time before the actual return of Christ, no matter the shortness of that time, in which the Holy Word will not be true amd the Holy Spirit will no longer be convicting sinners of their need, a dangerous position to take especially when trying to reach the hearts of those who have but a short time to yield their life to Christ.

"...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .... Romans 3:23 NASB

I think you may have misunderstood me. Here is what I am saying:

"If you have become estranged and have failed to be Bible Christians, be converted; for the character you bear in probationary time will be the character you will have at the coming of Christ. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny." Adventist Home 16

"None who have had the light of truth will enter the city of God as commandment-breakeers. His law lies at the foundation of His government in earth and in heaven. If they have knowingly trampled upn and despised His law on the earth, they will not be taken to heaven to do the same work there; there is no change of character when Christ comes. The character building is to go on during the hours of probation..." Faith and Works, p 43.

"We are not to settle down, expecting that a change of character will come to us by some miraculous work, when Jesus shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. No, my young friends, we are judgment-bound, and probation is granted to us here in this life, in order that we may form characters for the future, immortal life." Sons and Daughters of God, p. 9.

"As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion." GC 662

"We all need to sow a crop of patience, compassion, and love. We shall reap the harvest we are sowing. Our characters are now forming for eternity. Here on earth we are training for heaven. We owe everything to grace, free grace, sovereign grace. Grace in the covenant ordained our adoption. Grace in the Sviour effected our redemption, our regeneration, and our adoption to heirship with Christ. Let this grace be revealed to others." 6 T 268

[John317]

Not a reply to anyone specific, just adding my $0.02 worth to the whole "it's a sin to be sick" debate...

Our church youth group recently watched a film about Father Damian of Molokai. This was the (true) story about a Catholic priest who dedicated his life to working with people suffering from leprosy. As a result of spending his time among them, he also got leprosy and died.

How does this fit into the "it's a sin to be sick" idea? Or was this man sick because of his unselfish service to others who were sick?

aldona

Good point.

Just as in the case of Job's sickness (which was brought on by Satan's attacks), Father Damien's tragic story goes to show it helps to use common sense when we read Ellen White, something she herself often told people who came to her with certain questions. There are almost always exceptions to every rule.

It should be obvious that Ellen White was not saying that in every individual case, the sick person is ill because of a sin he committed. Again, she is saying that illness is due to someone's violation of the laws of health, but she is not saying the illness is the result of every sick person's sin. Her point is that we have a responsibility to learn how to be healthy and follow those laws of health that are beneficial to our individual bodies. An underlying principle is that our bodies are not really ours-- we are stewards-- but we belong to the One who purchased us with His blood.

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

...there is no change of character when Christ comes...Our characters are now forming for eternity. Here on earth we are training for heaven...

Does this then rule out the possibility of a death bed conversion? What of those who die without fully developed/perfected characters?

What exactly is character? Heart? Mind? What parts of the brain are character? Is it personality? Is it emotions? Is it attitude? Is it intellect? Is it knowledge? Is it memory? Is it experience? Is it a sense of right and wrong? Is it wisdom? Is it commitment? Is it conscience? What part does heredity play? Is it relational? Does it intersect or involve to some degree all of these? Or is it the sum total of all of these thing?

What is changed in a twinkling of an eye at the second coming? Just our body? If the character is housed in the brain, the brain is part of the body, how can it be changed, ie, the sinful flaws taken out, without changing or effecting the character in some way?

Tom

[John317]

Does this then rule out the possibility of a death bed conversion?

No, not at all. The thief who was crucified with Jesus had what we might call a death-bed conversion. If a person has not had an opportunity to repent or if he first comes under conviction of the truth of the gospel or hears the gospel invitation for the first time shortly before death, and if that person sincerely and honestly puts his trust in Christ at that time, we can have faith in God that He accepts him. We can't judge the heart, but it's safe to say that there is a difference between a conversion that results from the work of the Holy Spirit through an invitation to accept Christ, and a death-bed "conversion" that someone makes because of fear of death following years of puttng God off in order to live a life devoted to sin.

God judges us according to our knowledge of Him and of the gospel. The greater the exposure to truth the more He expects of us.

The danger with putting God off is not that God won't forgive a true confession and genuine repentence but that we can't be sure we will have a desire to repent and accept Christ. Esau wanted to be sorry for his sin, but he never really was. He was only sorry at having lost his birthright but wasn't sorry for the sin that caused the loss.

Quote:

What of those who die without fully developed/perfected characters?

God isn't looking for sinlessness or absolute perfection. He is looking for people whose lives demonstrate that they are loyal to Jesus Christ and submit to the rule of God in their hearts and minds. The main thing is whether we are letting Jesus be Lord of our lives. Are we growing in Christ? Are we overcoming sins that the Holy Spirit convicts us of and empowers us to overcome? In short, are we becoming more and more like Jesus? Or are we self-satisfied and thinking that God will change our characters when Christ comes the second time?

The Bible uses "perfect" in the sense of being mature, and of course God's measurement of maturity is going to be different for each person. For instance, God's expectations of someone who has been a Christian for 30 years, and knows God's Word, is going to be different than it is for one who has just started their Christian walk.

Quote:

What exactly is character? Heart? Mind? What parts of the brain are character? Is it personality? Is it emotions? Is it attitude? Is it intellect? Is it knowledge? Is it memory? Is it experience? Is it a sense of right and wrong? Is it wisdom? Is it commitment? Is it conscience? What part does heredity play? Is it relational? Does it intersect or involve to some degree all of these? Or is it the sum total of all of these thing?

No doubt all of these things to one degree or another contribute to the building of our characters.

"Mental ability and genius are not character, for these are often possessed by those who have the very opposite of a good character. Reputation is not character. True character is a quality of the soul, revealing itself in the conduct....Integrity, firmness, and perseverance are qualities that all should seek earnestly to cultivate; for they clothe the possessor with a power which is irresistible-- a power which makes him strong to do good, strong to resist evil, strong to bear adversity." Child Guidance 161.

"Strength of character consists of two things-- power of will and power of self-control. Many youth mistake strong, uncontrolled passion for strength of character; but the truth is that he who is mastered by his passions is a weak man. The real greatness and nobility of the man is measured by his powers to subdue his feelings, not by the power of his feelings to subdue him. The strongest man is he who, while sensitive to abuse, will yet restrain passion and forgive his enemies." CG 161, 162

"The formation of character is the work of a lifetime, and it is for eternity." CG 162

"The harvest of life is charactr, and it is this tht determines destiny, both for this life and for the life to come. The harvest is a reproduction of the seed sown. Every seed yields fruit after its kind. So it is with the traits of character we cherish. Selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, self-indulgence, reproduce themselves; and the end is wretchedness and ruin. (Quotes Gal. 6:8) Love, sympathy, and kindess yield fruitae of blessing, a harvest that is imperishable." CG 162, 163.

Ellen White, then, uses "character" to refer primarily to our moral characteristics, those which reflect the image of Christ and which Paul calls the fruitage of the Spirit in Galatians 5: 22,23, such as love, faith, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control, etc.

The dictionary definition:

character |?karikt?r| noun-- the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual

Quote:

What is changed in a twinkling of an eye at the second coming? Just our body? If the character is housed in the brain, the brain is part of the body, how can it be changed, ie, the sinful flaws taken out, without changing or effecting the character in some way?

Tom

The Bible only mentions the change of the body, that we will receive glorified bodies like the glorified body of Christ. (1 Cor 15: 35-57)

We are given new, immortal bodies, including new brains, but our characters and personalities and the way we think will be unchanged. God will give us new brains that don't violate our freedom to be the person that our life's choices have made us. If God wanted to, he could save everyone by simply changing everyone's mind and giving them a character make-over, but he refuses to do that because He honors and respects our freedom and our individuality.

There is, of course, a fundamental difference beween the mind and the brain.

Mind: the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought : as the thoughts ran through his mind, he came to a conclusion | people have the price they are prepared to pay settled in their minds. • a person's mental processes contrasted with physical action : I wrote a letter in my mind.

brain |br?n| noun 1 an organ of soft nervous tissue contained in the skull of vertebrates, functioning as the coordinating center of sensation and intellectual and nervous activity.

[Amelia]

Not a reply to anyone specific, just adding my $0.02 worth to the whole "it's a sin to be sick" debate...

Our church youth group recently watched a film about Father Damian of Molokai. This was the (true) story about a Catholic priest who dedicated his life to working with people suffering from leprosy. As a result of spending his time among them, he also got leprosy and died.

How does this fit into the "it's a sin to be sick" idea? Or was this man sick because of his unselfish service to others who were sick?

aldona

IMHO Sickness itself is a result of original sin and passed on to the generations. Lots of things changed once A&E were evicted.

[LifeHiscost]

How does this fit into the "it's a sin to be sick" idea? Or was this man sick because of his unselfish service to others who were sick?

[LifeHiscost]

IMHO Sickness itself is a result of original sin and passed on to the generations. Lots of things changed once A&E were evicted.

Then what would you make of this, Amelia?

"....Jehovah commanded, saying, `Fathers do not die for sons, and sons die not for fathers, but each for his own sin they die.'" 2 Chronicles 25:4 YLT

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4 KJV

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all. Just want to set the record straight for a God that was willing to die so that we might live.

I find it doubtful He would allow His children suffering they do not need, anymore than I would expect my earthly parent to discipline me for the way my brother behaves. Doesn't sound logical to me.

Regards!!

[Planey]

On the outside, looking in

I realise you are a classical music buff, aldona (and all credit to you for that) but Cold Chisel had a song whose title was practically the same as your by-line. I always resonated to that song and its title.

There is another of their songs with which I always found some agreement. You may know it (or not! ). It is apropos to many things on this forum. It was called "You Got Nothing I Want"

Curiously there is a third song of theirs which is often brought to mind on CA when reading the posts of certain frequent posters. It is called "No Sense" and it has a key line in its chorus which goes "You go on and on and you don't make no sense." Poor grammar but the sentiment is right on.

Graeme

[Tom Wetmore]

...There is another of their songs..."You Got Nothing I Want"...

...[and] a third song of theirs which is often brought to mind on CA when reading the posts of certain frequent posters. It is called "No Sense" and it has a key line in its chorus which goes "You go on and on and you don't make no sense."...

:tu

Ain't that the truth! (to continue the poor grammar theme...)

Tom

[Bravus]

The Angels also have a great 'Living On The Outside' song.

[Planey]

The Angels!

Now thre's a name to conjure great things with!

A superb band live. I remember one particular show at the Newcastle Workers (before it came down in the earthquake - although if it withstood Doc and the boys I'm surprised a puny little earthquake had any effect...)

Graeme

[olger]

The Angels also have a great 'Living On The Outside' song.

You rememeber the Seekers, Bravus? Best group to come from Australia.

oG

[Tom Wetmore]

The dictionary definition:

character |?karikt?r| noun-- the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual

Quote:

What is changed in a twinkling of an eye at the second coming? Just our body? If the character is housed in the brain, the brain is part of the body, how can it be changed, ie, the sinful flaws taken out, without changing or effecting the character in some way?

Tom

The Bible only mentions the change of the body, that we will receive glorified bodies like the glorified body of Christ. (1 Cor 15: 35-57)

We are given new, immortal bodies, including new brains, but our characters and personalities and the way we think will be unchanged. God will give us new brains that don't violate our freedom to be the person that our life's choices have made us. If God wanted to, he could save everyone by simply changing everyone's mind and giving them a character make-over, but he refuses to do that because He honors and respects our freedom and our individuality.

There is, of course, a fundamental difference between the mind and the brain.

Mind: the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought : as the thoughts ran through his mind, he came to a conclusion | people have the price they are prepared to pay settled in their minds. • a person's mental processes contrasted with physical action : I wrote a letter in my mind.

brain |br?n| noun 1 an organ of soft nervous tissue contained in the skull of vertebrates, functioning as the coordinating center of sensation and intellectual and nervous activity.

Current research would suggest that the brain/mind distinction might not be as clear cut as one might think. And the biological basis for morality raises some interesting questions along the lines of what I original asked concerning what changes do take place when we are "changed in the twinkling of an eye" at the second coming. Please read Brain Morality Link

In light of this discussion and this recent neurological research it would seem that "the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual", ie, character, have a very distinct physiological basis and that altered brain chemistry, impaired development, heredity, poor nutrition and diet, injury and disease and many known and unknown environmental factors beyond our control all the result of being born in a sinful world could all play a very real role in character development, or lack thereof. It would seem that if God does create in us a clean new sin free brain there would likely be significant modifications to moral and mental function, ie, character.

OK shifting gears a bit, let's think outside the box for a second. Think about how EGW and we Adventists have framed the character before and after death/the second coming. Now consider the traditional Christian view of the immortality of the soul that somehow survives unchanged through the portal of death and into eternity. Does it seem that Adventist character theology and traditional Christian soul theology have some startling similarities? It's something to think about. Not unlike our investigative judgment version of scaring the saints into the kingdom with hellfire and brimstone. Just different twists on the same theme.

Tom

[Woody]

What kind of "characters" are saved? Sinful and Faulty.

Christ's character stands in the place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned" STC 62

"We are not to be anxious about what Christ and God thinks of us, but about what God thinks of Christ our substitute." 2SM 33

"I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection" DA 357

When we die ... we die as sinful. At some point we will have to be changed so that we no longer will sin. We can not rely on the forgiveness of Christ in heaven. We will have to be without sin in Heaven. This changes happens when we see His face.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall SEE HIM as He is." 1 John 3:2

"Restoration to the divine image, victory over every sin will be completed at the second advent" 7BC 649

[John317]

What kind of "characters" are saved? Sinful and Faulty.

Christ's character stands in the place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned" STC 62

"We are not to be anxious about what Christ and God thinks of us, but about what God thinks of Christ our substitute." 2SM 33

"I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection" DA 357

When we die ... we die as sinful. At some point we will have to be changed so that we no longer will sin. We can not rely on the forgiveness of Christ in heaven. We will have to be without sin in Heaven. This changes happens when we see His face.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall SEE HIM as He is." 1 John 3:2

Notice that this last quote from the Bible says only those who are like Jesus will see Him when He comes. That is because those who are not like Him are destroyed by the brightness of His glory when He comes. Sin is consumed or destroyed in His presence. Our God is a consuming fire. We either let Him take our sins from us now or we will be destroyed along with our sins at His coming. The Investigative Judgement is all about becoming purifed and preparing for Christ's return in glory by allowing the Holy Spirit to make us more and more like Him.

Read Ellen White's entire book, Faith and Works.

[Bravus]

Quote:

Quote:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall SEE HIM as He is." 1 John 3:2

Notice that this last quote from the Bible says only those who are like Jesus will see Him when He comes. That is because those who are not like Him will be destroyed.

I think you've got the logic backward on this one, John. It says we will be like him because we see him, not that we will see him because we are like him.

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall SEE HIM as He is." 1 John 3:2

Notice that this last quote from the Bible says only those who are like Jesus will see Him when He comes. That is because those who are not like Him will be destroyed.

I think you've got the logic backward on this one, John. It says we will be like him because we see him, not that we will see him because we are like him.

But I am not going by human reasoning or logic. I am going by Inspiration and what the Bible teaches. Human reasoning in these matters can, and often does, lead us astray. We have to go by a clear "thus saith the Lord.

The very next verse says that those who would see Jesus at His second coming must purify themselves just as Jesus is pure.

Put that together with verses like 2 Cor 3: 38 which says those who have genuine faith are becoming more and more like Him.

Remember, also, Ellen White's comment that Jesus is watching with longing desire to see His people reflect His image and that when Jesus sees us perfectly reflect Him, He will come for His own.

People will not be like Jesus at His return if they have not become like Him before He comes. If people become like Him simply because they see Him, then everyone alive ought to be saved, because it says every eye will see Him. But 1 John 3: 2 is talking about "gazing upon" Jesus, which only the righteous can do. The wicked see Jesus but they cannot gaze on Him. They are destroyed. 2 Thess. 1: 8,9. Why? Because their characters are not in harmony with His. He doesn't recognize them as belonging to Him. He doesn't see His image in them.

[Woody]

There are many people over the centuries who have not had the opportunity to bear much fruit at all. They have not become holy in any form or fashion. Yet ... at some late point they turned over their lives to God and they are saved. Not because of any good works . NO. They have not become "holy". But they will have to be changed at some point before going to heaven.

When will they be changed?

When they SEE HIS FACE. AT the second coming as the Bible states. The theme of the Bible is very clear on all this. We do not achieve holiness in this lifetime that is fit for heaven. Even King David conspired to committ murder on his death bed. He will have to be changed at the second coming.

It did not happen in their lifetime. So ... tell me when the thief on the cross will be changed into holiness fit for heaven?

What about you John317. Are you fit for heaven now. Have you stopped all sinning. If you have not stopped all sinning now ... if you were to die today .... you would not be fit for heaven. In heaven we can no longer claim the forgiveness that Jesus offers. We must be perfect in all ways to be in Heaven. Absolute perfection. Have you arrived there yet? If not ... you have no assurance of salvation IF there is no change at the second coming. What a shame.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Remember, also, Ellen White's comment that Jesus is watching with longing desire to see His people reflect His image and that when Jesus sees us perfectly reflect Him, He will come for His own.

This whole concept, as warped into a perfectionist doctrine, is a loud echo of the teaching of the Pharisees that the Messiah would not come until the Sabbath was kept perfectly. Is it any wonder that the Sabbath was a primary focal point of their conflict with Jesus that precipitated their plotting to get rid of him!

But the problem with how this EGW quote is misused is that it ignores the context in which she said it (sound familiar?) and it gets abused to promote extreme perfectionism, with its self -obssessed preoccupation with self-improvement, perfect obedience and perfect law keeping. Interestingly, EGW quote is in the very same context as Jesus' directive, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect", which is likewise misused.

One should read the whole chapter 3 of COL where this quote comes from to see the context. But what immediately preceeds the oft quoted 2nd Advent prerequisite "perfectly reproduced" quote is as follows:

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.- COL 67-8.

And the same context immediately precedes Jesus' directive to be perfect was his admonitions toward selfless giving and his command to "Love your enemies".

And this character trait or attitude of Christ - selfless love - is what Paul speaks of in Phillipians 2:5.

Tom

[olger]

"And the same context immediately precedes Jesus' directive to be perfect was his admonitions toward selfless giving and his command to "Love your enemies".

And this character trait or attitude of Christ - selfless love - is what Paul speaks of in Phillipians 2:5."

Well maybe so..

oG

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Remember, also, Ellen White's comment that Jesus is watching with longing desire to see His people reflect His image and that when Jesus sees us perfectly reflect Him, He will come for His own.

This whole concept, as warped into a perfectionist doctrine, is a loud echo of the teaching of the Pharisees that the Messiah would not come until the Sabbath was kept perfectly. Is it any wonder that the Sabbath was a primary focal point of their conflict with Jesus that precipitated their plotting to get rid of him!

But the problem with how this EGW quote is misused is that it ignores the context in which she said it (sound familiar?) and it gets abused to promote extreme perfectionism, with its self -obssessed preoccupation with self-improvement, perfect obedience and perfect law keeping. Interestingly, EGW quote is in the very same context as Jesus' directive, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect", which is likewise misused.

One should read the whole chapter 3 of COL where this quote comes from to see the context. But what immediately preceeds the oft quoted 2nd Advent prerequisite "perfectly reproduced" quote is as follows:

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.- COL 67-8.

And the same context immediately precedes Jesus' directive to be perfect was his admonitions toward selfless giving and his command to "Love your enemies".

And this character trait or attitude of Christ - selfless love - is what Paul speaks of in Phillipians 2:5.

Tom

Tom, please go back to the pages in COL that we're discussing here and explain just how the previous paragraphs change the meaning of Ellen White's words in the last two paragraphs of that chapter.

What Ellen White wrote in previous paragraphs does not change the meaning of what she wrote so plainly: "Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as his own." COL 69

What does this say Jesus is waiting for?

And who doesn't want this teaching believed on and put into practice?

I'm positive Satan and his fallen angels are doing everything possible to prevent the acceptance of this truth. We certainly don't want our words and actions to help Satan keep this message from being accepted, do we? Remember that Satan knows as long as He can keep Seventh-day Adventists and other Christians from putting this truth into practice, he can succeed in further delaying the Second Advent, just as He has succeeded in delaying it for the last 120. A delay is a victory for Satan because it means a continuation of sin and suffering and that he can take more lost souls with him to eternal destruction.

Perhaps the following additional statements will help make that point clear:

On the same page of the same book, the prophet of God says, "It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3: 12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain."

"We are not to settle down, expecting that a change of character will come to us by some miraculous work, when Jesus shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Sons and Daughters of God, p. 9.

The question we all should ask ourselves is, How many more will die in the wilderness of this world like the Israelites died in the wilderness of Sinai instead of going on to the Promised Land because of rebellion against God's prophet and God's commandments? Please see Paul's practical application of this illustration in Hebrews 3: 12-4:2 and closely compare Numbers 13: 17 to 14: 45. Amazing parallels with SDA history considering the message of 1888 and our failure to prepare for Christ's coming which could have occurred about 1890.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Remember, also, Ellen White's comment that Jesus is watching with longing desire to see His people reflect His image and that when Jesus sees us perfectly reflect Him, He will come for His own.

This whole concept, as warped into a perfectionist doctrine, is a loud echo of the teaching of the Pharisees that the Messiah would not come until the Sabbath was kept perfectly...

Tom

I realize it may seem like like a perfectionist doctrine, but it really is not, any more than Jesus's doctrine that we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect or than Paul's doctrine that we are to become more and more like Christ.

It really has to do with genuine justification and its relation to sanctification. If justification is genuine it will result in a people who love God and love to obey Him. But it also must be seen in the light of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, which has to do with worship, loyalty, and obedience. These issues are more clearly brought to the forefront and clarified in the study of the heavenly sanctuary and the Pre-Advent Judgment. Ellen White wrote, "All need to become more intelligent in regard to the work of the atonement, which is going on in the sanctuary above. When this grand truth is seen and understood, those who hold it will work in harmony with Christ to prepare a people to stand in the great day of God, and their efforts will be successful." 5 T 575.

On pp. 430, 431, 424, 425 of the Great Controversy, Ellen White describes the importance of following by faith the work of our heavenly High Priest in order to understand "what duties are required of us" in these last days just before the close of human probation and the soon return of Christ for his purified church. "It is those who by faith follow Jesus in the great work of the atonement who receive the benefits of His mediation in their behalf, while those who reject the light which brings to view this work of ministration are not benefited thereby." GC 430.

The Bible itself contains this same teaching in many places in Scripture, but these are unfortunately not taken seriously, or are apparently ignored, by most of the Christian church, even by many Seventh-day Adventists.

For instance, Rev. 7, 14, and 19. "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready." "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing..." Jude 24. "...awaiting our blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." Titus 2: 13, 14. "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5: 23. "...that God may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints." 1 Thess. 3: 13. "...God has now reconciled [you] in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him..." Col. 1: 22.

All this really has to do not so much with us but with answering the malicious accustions against God. The reputation of God is at stake. As in the case of Job, our obedience helps God demonstrate that He is worthy and that Satan is wrong. The conclusion will be, "Just and true are God's ways," "Just art thou in these thy judgments," and "Worthy are thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power..."

[John317]

There are many people over the centuries who have not had the opportunity to bear much fruit at all. They have not become holy in any form or fashion. Yet ... at some late point they turned over their lives to God and they are saved. Not because of any good works . NO. They have not become "holy". But they will have to be changed at some point before going to heaven...

God takes all of our individual opportunities and knowledge of truth into account. We're not judged according to what someone else knows or does. If at any point in a person's life, he sincerely turns his life over in true faith to God, God is able to save him from that point onwards. Some do this very late in life; others do it while they still quite young.

No one is justfied or pardoned because of their good works. God justfies us on the basis of faith alone-- that is, faith in Christ as our personal Savior and Lord.

The Bible says that all who are truly justified are also sanctified. In other words, justification results in people who become more and more like Jesus Christ. Some people believe that sanctification is optional and not a necessary part of salvation, but this is not so.

"He is elected [to salvation] who will have faith continually, and who will be obedient to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. The provisions of redemption are free to all; the results of redemption will be enjoyed by those who have complied with the conditions." PP 208

"No man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place." 1 SM 366

"The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life." 7 SDA BC 972

[John317]

...When will they be changed?

I wouldn't deny we undergo a radical change at the Second Coming, but that change does not affect our characters and the way we think about right and wrong. That change must take place in the present life. "Today is the day of salvation." We can't wait for Christ to perform some miracle for us at His return to change our characters. By our commitment to Christ and our decisions and our actions NOW, we are giving God permission to change us by His Holy Spirit.

Do you remember the verse that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write?-- "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." 2 Cor. 5: 17. Also, please read John 1:12, Romans 6 and 8 and 2 Peter 1. "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3: 3

The Scriptures know nothing about a justification that is not followed by sanctification. If there is no change in the life, no submission to Christ, it is because there was no justification to begin with. If the root is in Christ, the tree will bear fruit. God is not looking for sinlessness but He is looking for people who by His Spirit obey Him and who are becoming more and more like the image of His Son. 2 Cor. 3: 14-18.

The bottom line is that people who have Christ living within through His Spirit will show it in their life. If this is not happening, the person needs to seek through prayer and Bible study and perhaps counseling with a humble, knowledgable follower of Christ for the reasons that it is not.

[John317]

... The theme of the Bible is very clear on all this. We do not achieve holiness in this lifetime that is fit for heaven.

In the Biblical sense, yes, we achieve holiness-- or sanctification-- in this lifetime, but if you mean we do not achieve sinlessness, in the sense of never sinning, then I would completely agree with you. But that is not what the Bible means by holiness. The Bible uses holiness as being set apart for God's purposes as soon as we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We continue to grow spiritually, of course, and we keep growing closer to Christ and becoming more like Him as long as life shall last. In fact, we will keep improving even in heaven and on the new earth.

But it is dangerous for anyone to think that there is no necessity to be "fit" for heaven. Sanctification is our fitness for heaven and it is not optional. Some people see justification as necessary for salvation but sanctification as optional. Yet that is not the message of either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. "God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." "For this is the will of God, your sanctification." "May the God of peace Himself sanctify you partly." 1 Thess. 5: 23.

Is that what it says? NO. It says that God will sanctify us completely, wholly.

Let's have faith in God's Word that He means what He says. It is obvious that if we believe it can't be done-- that is, that God cannot give us power to overcome all known sin in our life-- then it certainly won't happen. It is just like the children of Israel who could have entered the Promised Land and overcome the giants, but they didn't, and why not? Because they didn't have faith-- didn't think they could do it, even with God fighting their battles for them.

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Even King David conspired to committ murder on his death bed. He will have to be changed at the second coming.

But David truly repented, confessed, and overcame, in this life. He will be changed at the second coming, but David showed before he died that He was a changed man. He agreed with God in His diagnosis and he showed that he was loyal to God. He showed that he was in the process of letting God change Him and write His law on David's heart and mind and life. That is what God is looking for in each one of us.

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It did not happen in their lifetime.

With David, it certainly did happen in his lifetime. The same with Enoch, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Noah, Paul, Peter, and many, many more. See Hebrews 11. You will find that if they did not let God begin the process during their lifetime, they will not be saved in God's kingdom. The beginning of that change is called the new birth, or being born from above, or anew.

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So ... tell me when the thief on the cross will be changed into holiness fit for heaven?

God judges us according to our opportunities and knowledge. Evidently the thief did not have a long time between his hearing of the gospel invitation and his death. That has nothing to do with you and me, who have a long time from the moment we hear the gospel and either our deaths or the Second Coming. The thief did all he could, giving God permission to heal his mind of the effects of sin and begin the process of writing His law on his heart. He committed himself completely, 100% to Christ. That is what God is looking for in all of us.