Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2007 Moderators Posted May 18, 2007 What about you John317. Are you fit for heaven now. Have you stopped all sinning. If you have not stopped all sinning now ... if you were to die today .... you would not be fit for heaven. In heaven we can no longer claim the forgiveness that Jesus offers. We must be perfect in all ways to be in Heaven. Absolute perfection. Have you arrived there yet? If not ... you have no assurance of salvation IF there is no change at the second coming. What a shame. Read carefully what I have written in the above posts. What you have said here shows some fundamental misunderstanding. Read especially these paragraphs: In the Biblical sense, we achieve holiness-- or sanctification-- in this lifetime, but if you mean we do not achieve sinlessness, in the sense of never sinning, then I would completely agree with you. But that is not what the Bible means by holiness. The Bible uses holiness as being set apart for God's purposes as soon as we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We continue to grow spiritually, of course, and we keep growing closer to Christ and becoming more like Him as long as life shall last. In fact, we will keep improving even in heaven and on the new earth. But it is dangerous for anyone to think that there is no necessity to be "fit" for heaven. Sanctification is our fitness for heaven and it is not optional. Some people see justification as necessary for salvation but sanctification as optional. Yet that is not the message of either the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. "God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." "For this is the will of God, your sanctification." "May the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly." 1 Thess. 5: 23. With David, it certainly did happen in his lifetime. The same with Enoch, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Noah, Paul, Peter, and many, many more. See Hebrews 11. You will find that if they did not let God begin the process during their lifetime, they will not be saved in God's kingdom. The beginning of that change is called the new birth, or being born from above, or anew. God judges us according to our opportunities and knowledge. Evidently the thief did not have a long time between his hearing of the gospel invitation and his death. That has nothing to do with you and me, who have a long time from the moment we hear the gospel and either our deaths or the Second Coming. The thief did all he could, giving God permission to heal his mind of the effects of sin and begin the process of writing His law on his heart. He committed himself completely, 100% to Christ. That is what God is looking for in all of us. When it comes to our assurance of salvation, from what source do you derive your assurance? It may surprise you but the Bible contains the answer to your question: Study carefully 1 John 5: 13; John 8: 11; 5: 24; Romans 8: 1; John 14: 21; 15: 10; 1 John 2: 29; 2: 3; 2: 2: 5, 6; 3: 10, 9; 3: 14, 18, 19; 3: 24; cf. 4: 13; 5: 2-4; 4: 16; 3: 18-21; Acts 5: 31; Romans 8: 6, 13, 14; 8: 16. If you feel I have not answered your question, please let me know. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 You haven't even come close. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 Quote: You will find that if they did not let God begin the process during their lifetime, they will not be saved in God's kingdom. The beginning of that change is called the new birth, or being born from above, or anew. WOW !!! I can just see this .... Picture this John317 .... All these people in heaven who have "allowed" God to "begin" the "process" during their lifetime. Here they are in heaven still sinning. But hey .... they let God "begin" the process. John ... it simply ain't enough. We can't have sin in heaven. We must be perfect. If you die today John ... you are not perfect enough to be trusted in heaven. Some thing MORE has to happen. It happens when we SEE HIS FACE. We will be perfect. We will be fit for heaven. No more sin. Starting sanctification is fine but you must have it completed. That happens at the second coming. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2007 Moderators Posted May 18, 2007 ...And the same context immediately precedes Jesus' directive to be perfect was his admonitions toward selfless giving and his command to "Love your enemies". And this character trait or attitude of Christ - selfless love - is what Paul speaks of in Phillipians 2:5. Tom No doubt this is the kind of love that we are to have and the kind we will have when we fully reflect Christ, at which point Christ will come for his church. 1 John 3: 2,3 assures us that when Christ returns those who are prepared to meet Him will be just Him. He comes for a victorious, purified church, having neither spot nor wrinkle, not a church half dead and limping into glory. Compare the church with those who not ready for Christ's return, in Revelation chapter 12: 17; 14: 1-5, 12;17: 14; 19: 7,8, 14; 22: 10. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2007 Moderators Posted May 18, 2007 Quote: You will find that if they did not let God begin the process during their lifetime, they will not be saved in God's kingdom. The beginning of that change is called the new birth, or being born from above, or anew. WOW !!! I can just see this .... Picture this John317 .... All these people in heaven who have "allowed" God to "begin" the "process" during their lifetime. Here they are in heaven still sinning. But hey .... they let God "begin" the process. John ... it simply ain't enough. We can't have sin in heaven. We must be perfect. If you die today John ... you are not perfect enough to be trusted in heaven. Some thing MORE has to happen. It happens when we SEE HIS FACE. We will be perfect. We will be fit for heaven. No more sin. Starting sanctification is fine but you must have it completed. That happens at the second coming. There is great encouragement and good news in the following quotes. Please read the first two paragraphs especially carefully. A retired pastor working in the Ellen White Estate gave copies of them to me, and I have received great help and encouragement from studying and meditating on them. "When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-opeate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy and shall do his bidding in the end." DA 324 "Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness and who long for the spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliber me from this body of death?' Romans 7: 24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Savior is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, 'Wilt thou be made whole?' He bids you arise to health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence bidnds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is 'dead in trespasses.' Ephsians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin." DA 203 "Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us." Steps to Christ, p. 63. "Through faith in [Christ's] name he will impart to you the sanctification and holiness which will fit you for his work in a world of sin, and qualify you for an immortal inheritance in his kingdom." The Signs of the Times, June 18, 1896. "In the day of judgment the course of the man who has retained the fraily and imperfection of humanity will not be vindicated. For him there will be no place in heaven; he could not enjoy the pefection of the saints in light. He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God." Adent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 10, 1904 "He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself: Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation, is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin, but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God." 1 SM 315 "It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." 1 SM 397 "There is no safety nor repose nor justification in transgression of the law. Man cannot hope to stand innocent before God, and at peace with Him through the merits of Christ, while he continues in sin. He must cease to transgress, and become loyal and true." 1 SM 213 "It was impossible for the sinner to keep the law of God, which was holy, just and good; but this impossiblity ws removed by the impartation of the righteousness of Christ to teh repenting, believing soul. The life and death of Christ in behalf of sinful man were for the purpose of restoring the sinner to God's favor, through imparting to him the righteousness that would meet the claims of the law and find acceptance with the Father." Faith and Works, p. 118 "There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone." Faith and Works, p. 19. "The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation...Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works." Acts of the Apostles, p. 482. "The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life." 7 SDA BC 972 Finally, Redwood, let me suggest that you Google "Vaughn Allen" and read his book The War Is Real and So Is the Victory. You should also be able to access the book online by clicking on this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=o4IjxRYMf0sC&dq=vaughn+allen&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=jwPUbT6I8t&sig=q3o51-cogxMzJb-_7Mp5rJX-EbM#PPP1,M1 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2007 Moderators Posted May 18, 2007 You haven't even come close. I'm sorry to hear that. Be more specific and I'll try to do a better job of answering your questions this next time. Which question did I fail to respond well to? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 Quote: "The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life." 7 SDA BC 972 Some of your quotes like this one are very good. I do depend upon the obedience of Jesus Christ as it states for "gaining eternal life". Good one John. I agree. My obedience is as filthy rags. But now ... HIS obedience is worth salvation for all those who accept Him. Thanks ... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood You haven't even come close. I'm sorry to hear that. Be more specific and I'll try to do a better job of answering your questions this next time. Which question did I fail to respond well to? I don't see any value in repeating my questions. I find that usually my questions are just ignored in favor of preaching whatever dogma the responder has in his thoughts. My questions for some reason are too probing or sensitive to be answered directly. Many like to throw a bunch of quotes at my questions in hopes that somehow they might avoid the answer and change the subject .... but I am not fooled. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2007 Moderators Posted May 18, 2007 Quote: "The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life." 7 SDA BC 972 Some of your quotes like this one are very good. I do depend upon the obedience of Jesus Christ as it states for "gaining eternal life". Good one John. I agree. My obedience is as filthy rags. But now ... HIS obedience is worth salvation for all those who accept Him. Thanks ... You're very welcome, Redwood. John 3: 16 says that "whoever believes in him" will not perish but have everlasting life" (which commences in the present life). The question is what does the Bible say is meant by "believes in him"? Much of the world wrongly interprets it to mean an intellectual assent about Jesus. But a comparison of verses dealing with belief and faith and trust show that obedience to His commandments is an essential aspect of belief. It's where the rubber meets the road, you might say. It calls for people to make changes, and is the point at which there is usually the greatest test of discipleship. Ellen White wrote that in the judgment there is only one question: "Did the candidate for the kingdom obey His Father's commandments?" Many people think the question will be, "Did the person ever say they accepted Jesus as their Savior?" But the bottom line will be, did our life show that we continually put our faith in Christ, faith that is manifested in obedience to God's commandments? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2007 Moderators Posted May 18, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 I'm sorry to hear that. Be more specific and I'll try to do a better job of answering your questions this next time. Which question did I fail to respond well to? I don't see any value in repeating my questions. I find that usually my questions are just ignored in favor of preaching whatever dogma the responder has in his thoughts. My questions for some reason are too probing or sensitive to be answered directly. Many like to throw a bunch of quotes at my questions in hopes that somehow they might avoid the answer and change the subject .... but I am not fooled. Just as you wish. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Quote: Ellen White wrote that in the judgment there is only one question: "Did the candidate for the kingdom obey His Father's commandments?" Honestly John317 ... When this question is asked ... NO one will be able to claim that they have obeyed. Not one. We ALL fall short of the glory of God. This is why we need Christ. Obedience is a dead end road. We all fall short of staying on that road. Everyone of us has to answer NO. BUT ... the only question that really matters is as you have indicated ... "Did the person say they accepted Jesus as their Savior?". YES. As long as they accept Jesus as their Saviour then the Blood of Jesus SAVES them NOT their obedience. I will point out that ALL Christians have some measure of obedience. But NONE have obeyed as the law requires. That is why we need Christ as our substitute. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 19, 2007 Author Administrators Posted May 19, 2007 The unanimous "new song" of victory/deliverance/overcoming of the redeemed is "Worthy is the Lamb", for he alone is worthy. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Woody Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 AMEN Tom. He alone is worthy. Even the very best works of God in our life is not enough. For it was only the worthy works of Jesus that are our victory. We are redeemed through HIS life and overcoming on this earth. He ALONE is worthy. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
olger Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Ellen's statement (above) is doubtless rooted in Romans 8:4-13. Later on in the chapter we are told that God "giveth us all things." We have been adopted, praise the Lord. Therefore let none of us live according to the sinful nature (v.13). Each of us know what it is like to live amidst temptation. I do. I also have bad habits that I developed prior to coming to Jesus, fortunately God gave me a new nature. He also gave His Spirit to comfort, rebuke, exhort and strengthen us. Glory to God, many of those old habits have been put to death by His Power, not mine. There is nothing that God Can't do with a life given to Him upon condition of surrender. oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 19, 2007 Author Administrators Posted May 19, 2007 And for me this solves the riddle of the colossal pile of confusion exhibited here and in the "depraved mind" topic that threatens to divide up the saints. The bottom line is that there are going to be a lot of surprised people both on the inside and the outside in the end wondering how they got where they end up. (Read Matthew 25) I like to refer to them as the clueless saints. As for the sanctification conundrum, do a word search in Scripture of the word "sanctification" and its variations and pay close attention to who is doing what to (or for) whom in each and every verse. It lays to rest any delusion that sanctification is our contribution, to even the smallest extent, to the salvation equation. One has to come away from this with the impression that the justification and sanctification are more synonyms than even two sides of the same coin. The bottom line is that God does it all for us and to us, all the way from the repentance, to the forgiveness, through to the final transformation that we like to label "glorification". Our part (and even this is a gift from Him) is to have faith, believe, trust, or whichever word you want to use to describe it, in His salvation - even when we can't see it now. It is no more complicated than Paul's answer to the jailor's question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The answer is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2007 Moderators Posted May 19, 2007 Quote: Ellen White wrote that in the judgment there is only one question: "Did the candidate for the kingdom obey His Father's commandments?" Honestly John317 ... When this question is asked ... NO one will be able to claim that they have obeyed. Not one. We ALL fall short of the glory of God. This is why we need Christ. Obedience is a dead end road. We all fall short of staying on that road. Everyone of us has to answer NO. BUT ... the only question that really matters is as you have indicated ... "Did the person say they accepted Jesus as their Savior?". YES. As long as they accept Jesus as their Saviour then the Blood of Jesus SAVES them NOT their obedience. I will point out that ALL Christians have some measure of obedience. But NONE have obeyed as the law requires. That is why we need Christ as our substitute. No one is arguing here that we can earn justification and salvation by obeying the law. That is not the issue. We all agree on that point. The issue is whether people who claim to follow Christ obey His commandments. Does our life show that we mean what we claim? "If you love me, keep my commandments." etc. When we say no one obeys God's commandments, we are going against the Bible testimony, the testimony of God Himself. The Bible itself says plainly that just before Christ returns, His people will "keep the commandments and hold fast to the faith of [or remain faithful to] Jesus." Another verse says, they "obey the commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." How then can we say, "No, no one really keeps God's commandments"? Don't you see that we are taking up Satan's accusations for him against God? Yes, when we say nobody is keeping God's commandments, we are accusing God of lying. Thus we are siding with Satan. He is the one who always says no one obeys God. It is throwing it in Jesus' teeth, taunting Him that no one obeys Him or appreciates what He did on the cross. Satan loves that because He hates Christ and anyone who follows Jesus. Let us not do Satan's dirty work of attacking Christ and His church. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2007 Moderators Posted May 19, 2007 And for me this solves the riddle of the colossal pile of confusion exhibited here and in the "depraved mind" topic that threatens to divide up the saints. The bottom line is that there are going to be a lot of surprised people both on the inside and the outside in the end wondering how they got where they end up. (Read Matthew 25) I like to refer to them as the clueless saints. As for the sanctification conundrum, do a word search in Scripture of the word "sanctification" and its variations and pay close attention to who is doing what to (or for) whom in each and every verse. It lays to rest any delusion that sanctification is our contribution, to even the smallest extent, to the salvation equation. One has to come away from this with the impression that the justification and sanctification are more synonyms than even two sides of the same coin. The bottom line is that God does it all for us and to us, all the way from the repentance, to the forgiveness, through to the final transformation that we like to label "glorification". Our part (and even this is a gift from Him) is to have faith, believe, trust, or whichever word you want to use to describe it, in His salvation - even when we can't see it now. It is no more complicated than Paul's answer to the jailor's question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The answer is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." Tom We are justified by God's grace through faith in Christ alone. But justification is not retained unless a person continues to truly believe in Christ and trust Him, which means obey Him. Obeying Him is tied up with true belief in Him. Sanctification follows justification. In justification we are accounted righteous with the righteousness of Christ. God treats us as righteous as His Son. But it is a provisional gift, meaning that it can be withdrawn if we don't meet the conditions. And there are conditions to salvation. Our names can be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. The Bible is clear about that. Sanctification is a gift from God in the sense that we would not even have a desire to do God's will apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. But we have a part to play. We must choose to put our will on God's side in the battle between Christ and Satan. For those who believe in Ellen White's prophetic gift, look at a few of her statments related to the issue under discussion here: "Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us." Steps to Christ, p. 63. "Through faith in [Christ's] name he will impart to you the sanctification and holiness which will fit you for his work in a world of sin, and qualify you for an immortal inheritance in his kingdom." The Signs of the Times, June 18, 1896. "In the day of judgment the course of the man who has retained the frailty and imperfection of humanity will not be vindicated. For him there will be no place in heaven; he could not enjoy the pefection of the saints in light. He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God." Adent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 10, 1904 "He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself: Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation, is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin, but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God." 1 SM 315 "It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." 1 SM 397 "There is no safety nor repose nor justification in transgression of the law. Man cannot hope to stand innocent before God, and at peace with Him through the merits of Christ, while he continues in sin. He must cease to transgress, and become loyal and true." 1 SM 213 "It was impossible for the sinner to keep the law of God, which was holy, just and good; but this impossiblity ws removed by the impartation of the righteousness of Christ to teh repenting, believing soul. The life and death of Christ in behalf of sinful man were for the purpose of restoring the sinner to God's favor, through imparting to him the righteousness that would meet the claims of the law and find acceptance with the Father." Faith and Works, p. 118 "There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone." Faith and Works, p. 19. "The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation...Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works." Acts of the Apostles, p. 482. "The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life." 7 SDA BC 972 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2007 Moderators Posted May 19, 2007 ... Our part (and even this is a gift from Him) is to have faith, believe, trust, or whichever word you want to use to describe it, in His salvation - even when we can't see it now. It is no more complicated than Paul's answer to the jailor's question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The answer is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."Tom It is true that everything may be seen as a gift. At least I personally view it that way, because I know that I would not be where I am at apart from the Holy Spirit. I made the choice to follow Christ but even that desire is a gift. All true. But it is not true that all we have to do is "believe, only believe." That is where people are who refuse to keep all of God's commandments. That is where people are who believe "once saved, always saved." Paul himself said, "I am not under law but I am not free from God's law and am under Christ's law." Also, "Keeping the commandments is what's important." Jesus: "If you love me keep my commandments." And, "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, here are they who obey the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus." This is the same as what Paul talked about when he said he was not free from God's law and is under Christ's law. God's law is the moral law, the Ten Commandments, and Christ law is His teachings, or the faith of Jesus. "The soul temple is to be sacrrd, holy, pure, and undefiled. There must be a copartnership in which all the power is of God and all the glory belongs to God. The responsibility rests with us. We must receive in thoughts and in feelings, to give in expression. The law of the human and the divine action makes the receiver a laborer together with God. It brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God. Humanity touches humanity. Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." Faith and Works, pp. 26, 27. "The minister tells his hearers tht they cannot keep the law of God. 'It is not binding upon man in our day,' he says. 'You must believe in Christ; He will save you; only believe.' Thus he teaches them to make feeling their criterion and gives them no intelligent faith. That minister may profess to be very sincere, but he is seeking to quiet the troubled conscience with a false hope." Faith and Works, p. 32. "Many are led to think that they are on the road to heaven because they profess to believe in Christ, while they reject the law of God. But they will find at last theat they were on the way to perddition instead of heaven." Faith and Works, p. 32. "God requires at this time just what he required of the holy pair in Eden-- perfect obedience to His requirrements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law but to bring men up where they can keep its precepts. "The faith in Christ that saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. 'Believe, believe,' is their cry; 'only believe in Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do.' While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. And the apostle John declares, 'He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him' (1 John 2: 4). "By living faith, by earnest prayer to God, and depending upon Jesus' merits, we are clothed with His righteousness, and we are saved. 'Oh yes,' some say, 'we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.' Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death, for you are as verily a transgressor as anyone. "Then what is [saving faith]? It is to hear and to see that with the righteousness of Christ which you hold by faith, righteousness supplied by His efforts and His divine power, you can keep the commandments of God. "Now we want that faith. But will I be saved in indolence? Can he be saved in doing nothing? Never, never! He must be a colaborer with Jesus Christ. He cannot save himself. 'We are labourers together with God' (1 Cor. 3: 9)." Faith and Works, p. 71. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2007 Moderators Posted May 19, 2007 ..As for the sanctification conundrum, do a word search in Scripture of the word "sanctification" and its variations and pay close attention to who is doing what to (or for) whom in each and every verse. It lays to rest any delusion that sanctification is our contribution, to even the smallest extent, to the salvation equation. One has to come away from this with the impression that the justification and sanctification are more synonyms than even two sides of the same coin... Tom Please take down two or three basic systematic theologies and study the topic of soteriology, which includes justification and sanctification. Also check out what Ellen White says by using the Comprehensive Index to her writings. Also be sure to get a topical Bible that will give all the texts having to do with justification and sanctification. I am not assuming you have not already done any of these things, but based on what you said here, I am thinking you may need a refresher course in these subjects. Do not think that I am putting you down by these words. We all ocassionally need to review these matters closely. I myself review and study these things almost continuously. I am sure you realize the fundamental difference between the two words and how they are used in the Bible. Justification is God's declaring us righteousness on the basis of Christ's perfect life, death, and resurrection, which happens the moment we truly accept Christ's death in our place and accept Him as our Savior and Lord. On the other hand, sanctification is a process that takes place over a life-time whereby the Holy Spirit brings our life more and more into conformity with God's will. The moment we are justified, we are also set apart as God's people, holy unto the Lord, to do His work. That is when we become members of His church, His called-out ones. But from that point onwards, God begins making us in our actual life what He has said we are by declaration. As the Creator of the universe His declarative Word has amazing creative power and this power begins immediately to work within us so that the righteousness He puts on the inside is made manifest on the outside in the obedience to His commandments. This is the process of being made holy, which takes place by God's grace and through His power and man's cooperation. We are santified by the Holy Spirit (Romans 15: 16) and through belief in God's Word (John 17: 17, 19; 2 Thess. 2: 13, 14). Many believe sanctification is not necessary for salvation but this is not true. Sanctification is not optional. It is the will of God. "For this is the will of God, your sanctification," and "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 19, 2007 Author Administrators Posted May 19, 2007 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore ..As for the sanctification conundrum, do a word search in Scripture of the word "sanctification" and its variations and pay close attention to who is doing what to (or for) whom in each and every verse. It lays to rest any delusion that sanctification is our contribution, to even the smallest extent, to the salvation equation. One has to come away from this with the impression that the justification and sanctification are more synonyms than even two sides of the same coin... Tom Please take down two or three basic systematic theologies and study the topic of soteriology, which includes justification and sanctification. Also check out what Ellen White says by using the Comprehensive Index to her writings. Also be sure to get a topical Bible that will give all the texts having to do with justification and sanctification... Here's a thought. Pay attention to what I actually posted and respond accordingly. Just read what Scripture says and see how the word is used and who does what to (or for) whom. It really is all rather quite simple. There need not be any convoluted theological analysis or linguistic dissection. It says what it says. Remember my story about the dissected frog? Tom I am done trying to surf the tsunami... :hya Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Woody Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Wow .... Finally some fresh air. Thank you Tom and CoAspen. I was getting drowned in the twisted mess of the tsunami. The Gospel is very simple. The Legalists have made it into quite the legal battle. But this is not the will of God. It is interesting that when there are tough questions presented to the legalists they switch the topic to one of their favorites and give us a sermon on that instead of the topic at hand. Yes. The Gospel is simple. Believe on the name of the Lord and all the other things will fall in place. But the legalists desperately want to DO something. There "doing" will be their un"doing". These kinds of people usually drop by the wayside when they realize they can't live up to their own legalism. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
olger Posted May 20, 2007 Posted May 20, 2007 "The legalists" (3) times. Who are you referring to, comrade? oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
David Koot Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 According to Ellen White we will not be taking our characters to Heaven. Quote
olger Posted May 23, 2007 Posted May 23, 2007 "The legalists" (3) times. Who are you referring to, comrade? oG Cut to the sound of crickets chirping............................................... oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Woody Posted May 25, 2007 Posted May 25, 2007 I refer to whomever wants the title. And even those who resist the title. But I am sure they know who they are. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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