Silver Spring, we have a problem.

[Guest]

Ya know what??..I wasn't really sure if it was just my personal problem. That I was just spoiled by having one of the best preachers in America before coming to the SDA church.

My perspective and opinion for over 30 years has been that, for the most part, there is much to be desired in the homiletics and education approaches from the pulpit.

Well...I attended a SDA leadership seminar this past sabbath in which there were Union and GC conference level staff. Listening to them make mention of "doldrums in the church", survey results in which the #1 complaint by the people is that they are not getting fed, NCD (natural church development) program conflicts, a ministerial director telling me of his article aimed at pastors..leads me to belive that I am not some unique warped critical psycho always ranting .."please sir, may I have more?" ..like in Oliver.

I was also thinking of the DRUG war/problem....

You know..the one where we constantly hear that what really keeps the drug trade going was the buying by the users and if the demand wasn't out there then the drug supply would go away?

Is the reason why there remains this dumbing down,incompetent, non fat dry milk, shallow soteriology..pulpit famine is because you dopers out there crave cheapo sermons?

What perpetuates this sermon drug satus quo is cowardly carnal, fleshly, worldly, Laodicean churchians...who file by the pastor..after the weekly sermon, shaking hands and lying .."great sermon..Preach".

Have you given up?

Are you so insecure that you can't confront the pastor?

Are you so in love with the world that you just don't care anymore?

One of the influences/effects of cheapo sermons is cheapo sabbath schools. Usually the level of teaching at sabbath school can be tied to the level at the pulpit.

Well...some have to be in the 2nd resurrection...

[Nicodema]

I think the problem goes deeper than all that, JB. I think lack of a thorough, vibrant connection to God on a 24/7 daily basis lies at the heart of not having Food to bring to the Table on Sabbath.

I find when I am connected to Spirit (either one!) on a continual basis there is so much revelation, vision, awareness, insight, keys, secrets, mysteries made known, etc. that I never lack for material to share (only perhaps those who would be interested in it and/or respect it).

Likewise when disconnected, I'm a dry well -- you won't get fed, watered or refreshed here ...

Food for thought ...

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply Nico,

Hmm.. does your post mean that the clergy are pots calling the kettle black..that they are guilty of fulfilling Romans 2:1 when they preach on the message of Laodicea?

I don't get what you mean by "either one"

The church might be in better shape if there was a connection for at least 8/7.

[Nicodema]

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Hmm.. does your post mean that the clergy are pots calling the kettle black..that they are guilty of fulfilling Romans 2:1 when they preach on the message of Laodicea?

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I don't see any indication of that in my post. I think you are pulling that from your own mind somewhere since there is nothing even remotely suggestive of that line of thought in what I wrote. However if you are looking for a response, no, I do not think it is hypocrisy to preach about a problem or need one recognizes in oneself. If I recognize the truth of the warning to Laodicea as applies to ME, that does not make me a hypocrite or judgmental if I also recognize how the truth of that warning applies to us all. If anything it's Romans 2:1 in the positive aspect, or to quote the old childhood retort, "it takes one to know one." We don't call it judgmental when the dry alcoholic is able to pontificate about the recovery process and benefits to those currently enslaved to alcohol, do we?

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I don't get what you mean by "either one"

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Spiritual connectivity is productive of spiritual riches in the form of insight, awareness, revelation, vision, energy, you know, all the products of connectivity, regardless of what spirit one is connected to or with. Spiritual law is pretty much the same anywhere you go -- you don't get the Current flowing through you without Plugging Into the Source, regardless of Who/What that Source is. It is the Banalization and Mundanity against which this fight is to be fought, and it can happen to anyone in any religious persuasion, capiche? A Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Sufi, Jainist, Taoist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Druid, Shintoist, Shaman, Satanist, who does not remain connected to their source of spiritual power will likewise dry up -- the phenomenon and problem of fighting off banalization, mundanity, spiritual entropy, is not exclusive to the Christian, in other words. (perhaps I ought to have said "any" one instead of "either" one).

[Bravus]

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I do not think it is hypocrisy to preach about a problem or need one recognizes in oneself.

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I think it's difficult to do anything else, at least with any credibility. Why should I listen to someone tell me about how to deal with a temptation they've never suffered? (Hmm, I think we've come back around to homosexuality as defined by hets!)

Mind you, I'm sometimes a little worried about what I'm revealing about myself by the topics I choose to preach on at church!

[Guest]

Nico,

Now I understand you on the either one part.

Also..I was enlarging on implications on the Rom 2:1 issue..Thanks for your elaboration. Good point.

Your 24/7 reminded me of the numerous times when the pulpit speaker would say..."Keep your eyes on Jesus" or it is necessary to spend considerable devotional time with Jesus to be a victorious Christian...etc..etc..of the like.

If the speaker is setting the example with his message of a 1/7...3/7 churchian..then what influence does anyone expect...????

This week's SS lesson deals with the WORLD...

The GC conference ministerial teacher who taught some of this this past sabbath..mentioned at least 2 significant points...oneness(unity) and joy...and that if the church experience doesn't bring joy...the people will attempt to get it from what the world has to offer.

[Guest]

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Mind you, I'm sometimes a little worried about what I'm revealing about myself by the topics I choose to preach on at church!

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Hey..do I ever know what you mean...

Here is something for you..

Ever think it can be a little disarming...if the clergy would just knock off the pick n choose TYPICAL TOPICAL sermons and start preaching the word...expositorily through whole books? That way there is so much in each message that the listener is shotgunned with data and has trouble playing accuser.

The usual approach is to pick one single topic/issue and spend 20-45 minutes harping on it..when they can pick a multfaceted/topic epistle or gospel and teach through it and bring out 3 to 7 issues in each message and that way edify/nurture/instruct the variety of levels of maturity of the listeners.

Of course that hardly happens when the clergy are spending 2/7 connected to God

[Nicodema]

tithing tends to work with time as well. if you spend 2.5 hours daily seeking the connection it suffices to keep it continual and persistent during the other hours.

[Jeannieb43]

Tithing. of our TIME !

Great idea, Nico.

Thanks.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Derrell M]

Tithing of time! What a great concept!

I appreciate your posts, Nico.

[Nicodema]

Thanks all!

[LifeHiscost]

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Is the reason why there remains this dumbing down,incompetent, non fat dry milk, shallow soteriology..pulpit famine is because you dopers out there crave cheapo sermons?

What perpetuates this sermon drug satus quo is cowardly carnal, fleshly, worldly, Laodicean churchians...who file by the pastor..after the weekly sermon, shaking hands and lying .."great sermon..Preach".

Have you given up?

Are you so insecure that you can't confront the pastor?

Are you so in love with the world that you just don't care anymore?

One of the influences/effects of cheapo sermons is cheapo sabbath schools. Usually the level of teaching at sabbath school can be tied to the level at the pulpit.

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[:"red"] "And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:

'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

'The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: "God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

"I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'" [/]Luke 18:9-12

Thanks for letting us know who we can trust in our hour of need as the rocks fall.

[:"red"] "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." [/] Luke 18:13,14

[:"red"] "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand.'" [/] Rev 16:15-17

Lift Jesus up!!

[Guest]

LHC,

Is that the best you can do? Take an issue which is supported by members of the executive staff and turn it into solely a subjective personal accusation using scripture cryptics?

Any rookie religious wimp can do a rebut on anyone who calls out judgement/criticism, at any level, with those verses.

Since you posted a reply..I take it you are not totally indifferent..yet since you side with the gainsay crowd..it at least indirectly implies you see low/minimum validity to the topic theme.

In context..you could place those verses after rebuke words used by anyone...even Jesus..

You could cut and paste those words right after Matt 23.

You have been around here long enough to know that on some matters I use strong language/hyperbole.

And this is one of those matters...

Now would you like to post a reply regarding the theme of the thread..and/or its validity?

[Nicodema]

That makes three, all in one the same seven.

See, not as if from an enemy, but from the kingdom of Heaven:

Enigma, the emergent language of truth denied its voice?

Herein perhaps, but from another, who can tell?

Another has not been denied or consigned to living hell.

[LifeHiscost]

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In context..you could place those verses after rebuke words used by anyone...even Jesus..

You could cut and paste those words right after Matt 23.

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Yes, I could, but it wouldn't be valid as Jesus spoke as One without sin.

[:"red"]"So when they continued ..., he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone ...." [/]Matt 8:7

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Now would you like to post a reply regarding the theme of the thread..and/or its validity?

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Yes! Silver Spring, we have a problem.

What is it?

Sin!!

What is the remedy? Since...

[:"red"]"...all have sinned and are falling short..." [/] Rom 3:23

[:"red"]"Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered? [/] Jer 8:22

[:"red"]" And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony..." [/]Rev 12:9-11

[:"red"]"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." [/]

Matt 18:15-17 Emph theirs

And if it isn't a sin, then it's just an opinion different than another's, of which the brethren have the right to pursue without being badmouthed by those supposed to be desirous of strengthening the body of believers.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Guest]

Oh great...well that settles that matter...ok everyone..back to 3ABN and politics

[LynnDel]

I've always considered myself somewhat intelligent, but I guess I'm wrong. That last little exchange baffles me. It seemed like one person was deaf, or maybe it was two one-sided conversations? No, that's not it, either. I won't try to solve it today; too much work, and today is Sabbath!

I understand there is a surplus of SDA pastors right now, since there have been a number of layings off due to budgetary issues, especially in New York. I hope some of those are good preachers and that one of those good preachers becomes my pastor, filling the vacancy recently precipitously left.

Most SDAs I know don't place good sermons as a high priority. I can't quite understand this, because the weekly sermon does a lot to affect attendance and thereby brotherhood and unity, and all the other good things that draw us together.

Just my lowly little opinion,

LD

[Guest]

LD...

you might just be a possibility...

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I've always considered myself somewhat intelligent, but I guess I'm wrong.

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Naaa

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That last little exchange baffles me. It seemed like one person was deaf, or maybe it was two one-sided conversations? No, that's not it, either. I won't try to solve it today; too much work, and today is Sabbath!

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Good one!!

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Most SDAs I know don't place good sermons as a high priority. I can't quite understand this, because the weekly sermon does a lot to affect attendance and thereby brotherhood and unity, and all the other good things that draw us together.

Just my lowly little opinion,

LD

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YES!!!

Leadership is a major influence..and many SDA's have heard YUGO sermons so I can't fault them because I don't know if they ever heard competent ones like I have.

But no one fret..as long as the denomination has 10,000 baptisms in Rwanda..it doesn't seem to matter.

"Everything's all right ,,,everything's fine..."

from Jesus Christ Superstar rock opera...

The Marines are lookin for a few good men

God is looking for a few good Christians

[LifeHiscost]

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Most SDAs I know don't place good sermons as a high priority. I can't quite understand this, because the weekly sermon does a lot to affect attendance and thereby brotherhood and unity, and all the other good things that draw us together.

LD

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I've heard the phrase, "I would rather see a good sermon than hear one". Perhaps the reason not many are heard is because there are very few seen. That would seem to me to solve the perceived problem of good sermons, without heaping abuse on the individual who may have given up on seeing the church body miraculously rise from it's doldrums based on some so-called 'amazing spiritual giant', (a convenient way to shift the responsibility from one's self).

Another way of looking at it is to claim the promise,

[:"red"]"A man reaps what he sows." [/] Gal 6:7

[:"red"]"Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. [/]2 Cor 9:6

Maybe one reason we're not hearing good sermons is because we're not living good sermons.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Guest]

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[:"red"]"Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. [/]2 Cor 9:6

Maybe one reason we're not hearing good sermons is because we're not living good sermons.

Lift Jesus up!!

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Yeah..perhaps this and maybe that...validity acknowledged..

I will use the verse above and apply it to the pastor who sows the word sparingly and reaps sparingly .

Maybe, perhaps, possibly, could be the reason we are not hearing good sermons is that the pastors are not living good sermons.

Look at the initial thread post...it addresses the credibility of my opinion on the issue.

Evidently that did not carry much weight because you are gainsaying. So even with support of staff in high denominational positions expressing concern..you seem to shift the responsibility to the listener. Of course there is validity to your opinion..the case of Noah's preaching and those who perished in the wilderness attest to that position.

What do you need??? God to send you a letter documenting his displeasure with SDA homiletics? Or do you need a registered letter from Paulsen and the current GC Ministerial director expressing the need for improvement?

There is criticism in the SOP on this topic..was that relevant then only? We have arrived???

Today, I was talking to a head deacon of another church who mentioned that a church in Asia is loosening up on baptism requirements.

In history ..there is documented instances of consequences when leaders didn't run a tight ship.

[Guest]

LHC,

Your profile shows retired..

I keep it no secret that I teach a sabbath school class and have mentioned my religious history on this forum.

What is your experience?

I am not on a tirade to fire preachers...my thrust is to get them to sow the word generously instead of sparingly..and if anything do a hyperseed...ya know what that means? That is where they spray grass seed on the dirt and it has fertilizer with the seed.

With the way you seem to answer every post with scripture in red..I would lean to the notion that you would get my drift. It is a mystery to me what your gainsay is motivated by.

[LifeHiscost]

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It is a mystery to me what your gainsay is motivated by.

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I think it probably stems, at least in part, from the fact that nary a problem was ever solved from the biblical standpoint, by individuals trying to improve things by making attempts to change the lives of others. In the case of Adam he blamed the woman, implying it was God's fault for the error since He gave her to him. In turn the woman

blamed the serpent. No one said the real reason the world was getting worse was because they themselves failed their responsibility. It appears nothing has changed in the ensueing 6,000 years.

When I "saw" that reality applied to my life as well, at last I could go to God with true repentance instead of looking for a better place in the grand scheme of things by finding scapegoats for my discontent in my children, my spouse, my "friends, my delinquent church, my employer, my government, my past, my future, my pastor, ad infinitum.

Now if I see a problem that is worthy of my attention for the purpose of change, I ask God if there is somewhere He would like me to fit into the scenario, where my actions will bring about the necessary reform He is interested in. If it is too great for me to accomplish He has never asked me to go tell the world how terrible they are for not doing what I myself failed to accomplish.

That doesn't mean to stop preaching the Word, part of the great commission, but it does mean it necessary for me to let God lead the ones who come in contact with it through my voice. Their reaction to the Word will define the part they wish to play without them having to be accountable to another fallible instrument of God's choice (me), to give them determination.

I would not gainsay there will be a small number of people who will respond to your method of speaking out at the failures of others (whoever). And they will become zealous disciples on occasion. Each whether zealous or not, will stay motivated to action just as long as their guilty conscience convinces them they are in danger of losing out on the gifts of God if they slacken in response to another voice instead of Jesus' promise that they will indeed have His presence in their lives as long as it is invited.

[:"red"]"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." [/]John 6:29

Blessings!!

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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No one said the real reason the world was getting worse was because they themselves failed their responsibility.

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*Ahem*.

Those who know me personally, in real life, upon a deep and intimate level have heard me voice this concern for the past several years. Of course, they are sufficiently acquainted with my history and my deeper perspectives on things to give statements of that nature the proper context. There are some statements a person cannot make more openly because they can never be palatable for public consumption and can only be understood as something they are not if the attempt to make them in public were tried.

And in fact if I were to try to explain such a thing, most people who have not had a close, intimate acquaintance with me would simply think I had some sort of delusion going on or a guilt complex or something. They wouldn't "get it".

OK, we now return you to your regularly scheduled useful discussion ...

[Guest]

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I think it probably stems, at least in part, from the fact that nary a problem was ever solved from the biblical standpoint, by individuals trying to improve things by making attempts to change the lives of others.

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You got to be kidding??? What warped teacher taught you this?? Ever read the bible??

Who wrote 2 Cor 3:18??

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In the case of Adam he blamed the woman, implying it was God's fault for the error since He gave her to him. In turn the woman

blamed the serpent. No one said the real reason the world was getting worse was because they themselves failed their responsibility.

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This was their initail reaction out of fear. Are we supposed to believe that they maintained this attitude?

Maybe God had a plan to CHANGE them to embrace person responsibility?

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When I "saw" that reality applied to my life as well, at last I could go to God with true repentance instead of looking for a better place in the grand scheme of things by finding scapegoats for my discontent in my children, my spouse, my "friends, my delinquent church, my employer, my government, my past, my future, my pastor, ad infinitum.

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Granted people do that..pick out scapegoats...yet there are some who pick the beam out of their eye in true repentence and then approach others with the need to challenge them to sow the seed generously

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That doesn't mean to stop preaching the Word, part of the great commission, but it does mean it necessary for me to let God lead the ones who come in contact with it through my voice. Their reaction to the Word will define the part they wish to play without them having to be accountable to another fallible instrument of God's choice (me), to give them determination.

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So we tell them once and then just write them off...never go to them again?

Is that what God did to Jonah?

Also we should just let people be accountable to God...forget leaders, supervisors and managers??

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I would not gainsay there will be a small number of people who will respond to your method of speaking out at the failures of others (whoever). And they will become zealous disciples on occasion. Each whether zealous or not, will stay motivated to action just as long as their

guilty conscience

convinces them they are in danger of losing out on the gifts of God if they slacken in response to another voice instead of Jesus' promise that they will indeed have His presence in their lives as long as it is invited.

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This is a pretty cynical attitude.

The flavor I get from your reply smacks of Calvinism...

TULIP

T=total depravity of man...

Seems you have walked down a pretty rough road and been burned.

[:"red"]"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." [/]John 6:29

Blessings!!

Lift Jesus up!!

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LHC...thanks for the reply...sincerely...

it is very revealing....valid in a limited sense...yeah I know ..that didn't say much but I hope you know what I mean.

The notions expressed remind me of those from SDA's who are taught by preachers of TYPICAL TOPICAL SERMONS...and not as Paul's manner where he was not remiss in sharing the whole counsel of God.

I sense the laisez faire influence...CAPI

complacent

apathetic

passive

indifferent

that has permeated SDA sermons and thinking

the ones that minimizes personal invovlvement.

At least you haven't totally succumbed to it since you are at least on this site and replying.

[Nicodema]

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[:"blue"] (by JimBob)[/]

Granted people do that..pick out scapegoats...yet there are some who pick the beam out of their eye in true repentence and then approach others with the need to challenge them to sow the seed generously

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This is an interesting point and illustrates the aspect of judgment-passing that I call "two mirrors facing". What comes to my mind reading this is to ask whether or not we can sometimes fall into the trap of passing judgment on everyone who takes it upon themselves to "challenge" another as being someone who has a beam in their eye and is merely passing judgment. I.e., we pass a judgment that says another is judgment-passing, but is this not a judgment-passing on our own part when we do it? What evidence do we have that this or that person is, in fact, picking at someone else's speck without removing their own "beam"? And more to the point, what criteria do we use to evaluate such a question? Is it only the criteria of our own personal irritation at what they are saying? (I'm addressing this question unilaterally to myself as well as any others reading here.)

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[:"blue"] by LHC:[/]

That doesn't mean to stop preaching the Word, part of the great commission, but it does mean it necessary for me to let God lead the ones who come in contact with it through my voice. Their reaction to the Word will define the part they wish to play without them having to be accountable to another fallible instrument of God's choice (me), to give them determination.

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The problem is, one simply cannot remove the element of oneself from one's communications -- it is impossible. Even by choosing to quote scripture, you "give yourself away" with regard to (a) the angle you are taking on a topic; ( your own personal viewpoint about it; © the judgments or assessments you are making on the person you are addressing (questions above notwithstanding) -- and the recipient and even the "innocent bystanders" overhearing you KNOW this. A valid self-challenging question might be, am I really looking to their welfare and removing the factor of "accountability" to a "fallible instrument" by doing this? Or am I really simply trying to remove my OWN accountability in the matter for how it goes? And the place to direct this question is not to the subjective realm of your own heart and feelings and "intentions" but rather to the hard, practical realm of what actually transpires as a result.