Silver Spring, we have a problem.

[Guest]

PS To Bille you suggested that the Philadelphia CONDITION will not be saved in it's entirety is wrong. They are the 144,000 that have the seal of God & the Fathers name in their forehead. See 3:12 & 14:1-3.

The Smyrna church CONDITION will all be saved, as they will be those "faithful to death", those in this CONDITION, in the near future, after the "image" beast is set up.

The Laodecean church CONDITION will ALL be spewed out just like the bible says. Laodeacean is a CONDITION and NOT A PERIOD of time!!! Get real TV bible students!!!

[Bille]

Quote:

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As a people manager...I don't belittle, verbally abuse my staff...

---

Then why do you belittle and verbally abuse the pastors of this church?

Quote:

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Do all of the members really deserve this?

Do the other people in the group with you not matter?

---

I am thinking ... thinking ... thinking ... and I honestly cannot recall ever having seen a more abusive tirade than the diatribe you have just posted here.

Thus I echo your question ... Do all of us members and pastors and teachers of the Seventh-day Adventist church deserve this? Does no one or nothing but your own misinformed self-centered opinion matter?

I pity you. But I shake the dust of your posts from my feet.

[Bille]

You poor deluded soul...condemned forever to remain in the ignorance of your own mind...fully insulated from those who could teach...if you were only teachable.

Your posts have one important positive effect on me...they make me overflow with gratefulness that my church and its beliefs are not subject to your carving knife.

Thank God for our dedicated pastors, teachers, and scholars who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit teach, feed, and lead the flock in green pastures beside waters flowing from the throne of God.

[Guest]

Quote:

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Quote:

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As a people manager...I don't belittle, verbally abuse my staff...

---

Then why do you belittle and verbally abuse the pastors of this church?

Quote:

---

Do all of the members really deserve this?

Do the other people in the group with you not matter?

---

I am thinking ... thinking ... thinking ... and I honestly cannot recall ever having seen a more abusive tirade than the diatribe you have just posted here.

Thus I echo your question ... Do all of us members and pastors and teachers of the Seventh-day Adventist church deserve this? Does no one or nothing but your own misinformed self-centered opinion matter?

I pity you. But I shake the dust of your posts from my feet.

---

Why? Contemporary/Present truth tied to Ez 34 and Matt 23

The leadership is so fond of the old wine skins..that they need a Mennen slap, reality check and a wake up call.

Dust? Are you a JW convert?

[Guest]

Quote:

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You poor deluded soul...condemned forever to remain in the ignorance of your own mind...fully insulated from those who could teach...if you were only teachable.

Your posts have one important positive effect on me...they make me overflow with gratefulness that my church and its beliefs are not subject to your carving knife.

Thank God for our dedicated pastors, teachers, and scholars who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit teach, feed, and lead the flock in green pastures beside waters flowing from the throne of God.

---

--------------

I notice you failed to provide one bible or SOP quote to back up your deluted suggestions.

Don't ever think about weeping for me, "weep for yourself..."

[Guest]

Quote:

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Thank God for our dedicated pastors, teachers, and scholars who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit teach, feed, and lead the flock in green pastures beside waters flowing from the throne of God.

---

Green pastures? Brown Bermuda grass

Water? ,,,,,non fat dry mik

2 Peter 2

"17": These are wells without water , clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude

"12": These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water , carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots

[Guest]

JimBob your skills at pointing out the problem with "dry sermonds" & such is well tuned I would say, when are you going to get around to a SOLUTION?

My solution has ever been since coming to this forum was along the lines of a better understanding of Revelation messages given in order. In 1900 the SOP gave SDA this instruction.

"When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood,believers will have an entirely different religious experience."

But Adventism don't want NOTHING, they don't need nothing, they have the memory work of the seminary teacher teaching Revelations messages the same as the world taught them, excluding Revelation 13 & 14 of course.

The 7 churches, same as the world? Yes

The 7 seals, same as the world? Yes

The 7 trumpets, same as the world? Yes

William Miller was even teaching that the 7 last plagues was in the past, so Adventist straighten that up after 1844 and restored chapters 15 and 16 back to the future.

But the chapters dealing with the 7 churches/seals/trumpets, they just left it the way they found them taught.

What ever happened to the "people of the book"???

[LifeHiscost]

Bille,

That was the longest discourse presented on CA that I have read since joining, presenting the most well rounded and accurate insight into the present position of the body of believers in the Adventist church. What can I say but amen

and hallelujah!! And this after reading every word presented.

It is obvious that the opinion of one faulty Christian is not enough to carry the Truth, speaking of myself. But it is true that when the Spirit of God speaks through that one faulty member of the body of Christ, it is a matter of extreme danger to all those who wish to remain on the side of constant criticism of those who give themselves to God's desire to lead them.

There has been one mentioned on this forum of whom I have a personal reason to be cautious in regard to their heart for the mercy God promises to all of His erring children. However just as Jesus allowed Judas to work closely involved with the other 11 of the fledgling New Testament church, without ever making an effort to stifle Judas' influence at such an important time in the church's history, so Jesus tells me to follow His example for the sake of the body of believers and the help asked in the finishing of the Lord's work on this dark planet.

It seems only logical that Jesus would ask the same of all disciples trying to make the way clear for as many as possible to have confidence in His promise,

[:"red"]"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ..." [/]Phil 1:6

While Jesus is well able to sustain those who listen for His voice, despite the murky waters of false doctrine as attested by His loyal disciples, it is seen to be clear from the example of Judas, even God can not save those who work by means circumventing the mercy of Christ's wisdom.

[:"red"]"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption [/] 1 Cor 1:30

Thank you, Bille, for making the position of the body of believers in Adventist faith more clear to me.

[:"red"]"They confronted me in the day of my calamity, But the LORD was my support." [/]2 Sam 22:19

[:"red"]"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you." [/]Rom 11:17,18

[:"red"]"For they went out for the sake of the Name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles.

Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth." [/]3 John 1:7,8

It would be refreshing to hear the critiquers expend their energies in winning souls to Christ instead of using their unusual talents to uproot the tares.

Lift Jesus up!!

[aka]

"That was the longest discourse presented on CA that I have read since joining, presenting the most well rounded and accurate insight into the present position of the body of believers in the Adventist church. What can I say but amen

and hallelujah!! And this after reading every word presented.

It is obvious that the opinion of one faulty Christian is not enough to carry the Truth, speaking of myself. But it is true that when the Spirit of God speaks through that one faulty member of the body of Christ, it is a matter of extreme danger to all those who wish to remain on the side of constant criticism of those who give themselves to God's desire to lead them."

[:"green"] This sums up the answer to my self-searching question that haunted me the whole day yesterday. WHY AM I READING AT CLUB ADVENTIST??

Now I know why.

Because such guys like JIMBOB, WhiteEd, LifeHisCost, and others I am not so familiar with, are doing their bit to bring up to light the quintessence in message of "wake-up!" "the judgement of God is at hand!" that this topic thread is on about.

I am not trained or equipted to join in the fray but I'm there in the background on my knees talking to Jesus about you guy's efforts. I'm asking him that wisdom and power from the throne supports what goes on in such debates or discussion on this Forum to bring glory to Him. [/]

Turmeric

[Guest]

Life as you are PRAISING Bille, you are doing her no favor at all.Do you approve of what she said about the Philadelphia church CONDITION and them not all being saved? Or do you even quote from the book of Revelation? I see you quote from the NIV a lot, that the interpertation that raptured out many verses speaking of Jesus blood.

"We need to shun everything that would encourage pride and

self-sufficiency; therefore we should beware of giving or

receiving flattery or praise. It is Satan's work to flatter.

He deals in flattery as well as in accusing and condemnation.

Thus he seeks to work the ruin of the soul.

Those who give praise to men are used by Satan as his

agents. Let the workers for Christ direct every word of

praise away from themselves. Let self be put out of sight.

Christ alone is to be exalted. "Unto Him that loved us, and

washed us from our sins in His own blood," let every eye be

directed, and praise from every heart ascend. (Rev. 1:5.)

p. 161, Para. 2, [COL].

[aka]

WhiteEd, you are going overboard in narrowness applying that quote as you just did.

Billie did rightly in putting up facts of church condition in proper understandable english. I was just as greatful for her composition as LHC was.

However, a contempory use of wrong praise as EllenW was talking about is what others in message reports on this and other cyberSDA Forums wrote. They told of how their mothers, relatives or friends would so adulate Shelton Danny and Linda time and again as they were going strong together on TV broadcastings. They were so smitten by the two that they constantly expressed a devotion that tottered on breaking the first command of the big 10.

Gratefulness for a task well done should be used in communicating one to another. Encouragements of small praise for having helped should be never over-looked.

Flattery on the other hand has not been used in this thread.

Flattery is always a slimy insincere method to reach another goal behind the initial approach of being positively enthused about the person. I have not seen complimentery fawning and pandering to anyone in this thread.

BE YE THANKFUL, dear brother, is biblical admonition.

And that means to show it in word, deed or print.

Turmeric

[Guest]

Tumeric said this. “Flattery on the other hand has not been used in this thread.

Flattery is always a slimy insincere method to reach another goal behind the initial approach of being positively enthused about the person. I have not seen complimentery fawning and pandering to anyone in this thread”

Why I was sure I saw some flattering going on in Bille posts above praising those [“leading in green pastures”] that taught to her to cling to this error below and mind-set to never doubt their sure footed leading.

Bille suggested the following in her post above.

#1 That the Philadelphia CONDITION will not be saved in it's entirety.

[This is wrong. They are the 144,000 that have the seal of God & the Fathers name in their forehead.] Rev.3:12 & 14:1

#2. The Smyrna church CONDITION will not all be saved.

[They will all be saved, as they will be those "faithful to death", those in this CONDITION, in the near future, after the "image" beast is set up Rev. 2:8-10. Rev. 20:4

#3. The Laodecean church CONDITION is acceptable with heaven.

[That is not true as they will ALL be spewed out just like the bible says. Rev. 3:15

Laodeacean is a CONDITION and NOT A PERIOD of time!!! Get real TV bible students!!!]

Now I am asking her and you to look in the bible for yourselves and show me bible backing for her stated position. Even those “leading in green pastures” are welcome to come to her rescue.

[Bravus]

BTW, I'm with Ed on this one: I think (based on my reading of the Bible - not only this section of Revelation but the rest) that we see all of the church types and all of the problems identified in Revelation in the modern church, and that all parts of this prophecy remain applicable to us today. As has been noted here, this is encouraging - if we're doomed to be Laodicean, that's kinda depressing... It also reminds us that there are lots of ways to fall out of walking fully in the grace and guidance God has for us (which is different from falling out of his love for us (which is impossible) or from salvation), other than just lukewarmness.

[Guest]

Bille,

Hope you don't get too disgusted with some of us.

I see you are from the Collegedale , Tenn area..

I don't know for how long..

Many times members from the think tank, institutional areas..like Andrews, Loma Linda, college areas..etc.. don't have the perspective as some of us from the SDA ghetto.

They are fed from the cream of the crop polished brains...because if the pastors in those areas were dummies..the people would throw a fit!

Sure, I have not been to all SDA areas and churches..but I have been in 3 conferences for over 30 years and have taught SS school for 25 of those and keep in touch with the denomination news generally speaking.

The issue of what my hobby horse is not confined to our denomination alone..it is widespread in Christendom..

I have attended at least a dozen denominations..and the non fat dry milk TYPICAL TOPICAL SERMON is at epidemic proportion.

My tirade is that this "people of the book" urban legend is nonsense.

You can't tell until you have been to some churches where they teach and preach THE WORD....like I have..and they are scarce.

[Bille]

Quote:

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BTW, I'm with Ed on this one: I think (based on my reading of the Bible - not only this section of Revelation but the rest) that we see all of the church types and all of the problems identified in Revelation in the modern church, and that all parts of this prophecy remain applicable to us today. As has been noted here, this is encouraging - if we're doomed to be Laodicean, that's kinda depressing... It also reminds us that there are lots of ways to fall out of walking fully in the grace and guidance God has for us (which is different from falling out of his love for us (which is impossible) or from salvation), other than just lukewarmness.

---

What you have explicated here is exactly in line with standard SDA interpretation/application. What Ed has given above in not. I'm not able to figure out just how you are "with Ed" on this topic.

[Bravus]

Hmm, OK, I must have misread Ed.

I thought this (what I outlined above) was his argument, and was confused about how he thought it varied from mainstream SDA. I think you've clarified that quite a lot, but his point, then (and where I'm with him) is that if various SDA pastors are not preaching it this way, then why?

In other words, if what I outlined above is the doctrine, why are we hearing that the prophecy applied to specific time periods - and only that. I'd agree with what you outlined earlier (but can't remember the technical terms!) about the prophecy having meaning at the time it was given, throughout history and now.

As I understand what Ed is saying, he's saying that the most important application for us now is the application now, and that makes sense to me.

[Guest]

Quote:

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Quote:

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BTW, I'm with Ed on this one: I think (based on my reading of the Bible - not only this section of Revelation but the rest) that we see all of the church types and all of the problems identified in Revelation in the modern church, and that all parts of this prophecy remain applicable to us today. As has been noted here, this is encouraging - if we're doomed to be Laodicean, that's kinda depressing... It also reminds us that there are lots of ways to fall out of walking fully in the grace and guidance God has for us (which is different from falling out of his love for us (which is impossible) or from salvation), other than just lukewarmness.

---

What you have explicated here is exactly in line with standard SDA interpretation/application. What Ed has given above in not. I'm not able to figure out just how you are "with Ed" on this topic.

---

Well Bille maybe you were called into action for just such a time as this to point out my great error stated in my last post. Hearsay or tradition will not work here, show us what you have, since your credbility is on the line!

[Guest]

and now a word from our sponsor..

Reality check time...

For the SDA masses out there...

The issue is not on the doctrinal nuances of the 7 churches, plagues, trumpets,seals, dolphins...or even Snow White's DWARFS..

What is presented or for that matter NOT PRESENTED from the pulpit in most churches is what the issue is here..

ok back to the controversy over pretorist..historic, prehistoric, dinosaurs in the 7 churches

[Bille]

Quote:

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Hmm, OK, I must have misread Ed.

I thought this (what I outlined above) was his argument, and was confused about how he thought it varied from mainstream SDA.

---

Yes, I agree, he is very confusing since he first makes a "straw-man" of what the denomination teaches and then proceeds to put forth his own version ... which in some ways is a lot like the real position of the SDA church. So his first offense is to claim that the church only teaches a part of what they actually teach. Then he goes on to put a not so subtle distortion of the rest of what they teach out front as the whole of what they should teach.

Quote:

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I think you've clarified that quite a lot, but his point, then (and where I'm with him) is that if various SDA pastors are not preaching it this way, then why?

---

What "various pastors" preach or don't preach is never a sufficient basis for judging what the church as a whole teaches or doesn't teach. The myth of Adventist doctrine being held exactly the same by all within the membership, is exactly that ... a myth. And we can go into various aspects of how the myth began ... but probably that is too much to go into here. Suffice it to say that this point, quoted in the hands of our detractors, is one of the things that causes them to call us (unjustly) a cult. The truth is that our church allows a wide diversity of preaching without censure or restraint (even to the point of allowing pastors to put up websites that are violently critical of the very conference which hires them). So much for the idea that all pastors preach alike.

So ... could some pastors pick only the historical application to preach on? Of course. Could some pastors preach on one application one time and another another time? Of course. Could someone, hearing such focus from one or more pastors make generalizations about what all the others teach? Unfortunately, yes, it happens.

Quote:

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In other words, if what I outlined above is the doctrine, why are we hearing that the prophecy applied to specific time periods - and only that.

---

Do you speak from your own experience of hearing this, and only this, preached? Or are you speaking of the accusations which have been made here on CA? Did you go to the website where Mark Finley's devotionals are posted and read from the beginning ... noting that at times he focuses on the historical condition of the church in John's time, at other times he focuses on the symbolism of the church with that particular problem in history ... and that whichever focus he begins with, he always ends with an application to us in our present time? I think that alone, to say nothing of the books that have been written on the Revelation, is witness to our threefold application/interpretation of the messages to the churches.

Quote:

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I'd agree with what you outlined earlier (but can't remember the technical terms!) about the prophecy having meaning at the time it was given, throughout history and now.

---

Preterism, Historicism (Recapitulationist Historicisn), and Futurism. Since you are in a public university and therefore more likely than many SDAs to be in contact with Christians other than SDA, it would be well for you to file those terms away in an accessible corner of your synapse jungle. For currently, there is a biggy push in certain corners of Christendom for both Preterism on the one hand (an extreme form that even damns ordinary simple Preterism) and Futurism on the other. You would do well to familiarize yourself a bit with the terms and the arguments of their proponents. Google will give you more than ample reading resources.

Quote:

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As I understand what Ed is saying, he's saying that the most important application for us now is the application now, and that makes sense to me.

---

Unfortunately, he is not content to just make that generalization, but adds to it some conjectures that don't hold up in the light of scripture which is read as it reads. But I'll leave the details of that for another time.

[Bravus]

Thanks for that clarification, it's much appreciated. I have to say I'm not reacting so much from hearing preachers, as from doing various Revelation courses at Avondale and elsewhere quite a while ago. I accept what you're saying.

And I (and this is where I'm not with Ed so much) celebrate diversity within the SDA and Christian churches. What I wanted to do was affirm the importance of the recapitulation for now... that was the whole of my point.

I have to admit, I was also partly motivated by wanting to point out some common ground with my brother Ed, with whom I've had some exchanges in the past. (In his terms, to stand with him in affirming a particular truth, rather than to flatter him personally.)

(I think far too often the point/counterpoint gets switched into personal opposition in here, and want to try to find common ground as far as possible. That might get me branded as a flipflopper though!)

[Guest]

Bille, do you ever quote scripture or SOP or do you just shoot from the hip? You abundance of words mean very little to people that hold the bible in their hand. I made some pointed statments that you said that was error and I gave bible text to establish this fact. With you playing fake it till you make it or till some hirling shepherd comes along to repeat his memory work to encourage you is a dead end street.

"Numberless words need

not be put upon paper to justify what speaks for itself and

shines in its clearness. Truth is straight, plain, clear,

and stands out boldly in its own defense; but it is not so

with error. It is so winding and twisting that it needs a

multitude of words to explain it in its crooked form." EW 96

You have not use scripture even once in your attack on my posts.Why is this??

[Guest]

Quote:

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Bille, do you ever quote scripture or SOP or do you just shoot from the hip? You abundance of words mean very little to people that hold the bible in their hand.

---

Heads up!

This is the result of the minimize inspiration trend.

When I look at The Advent Review..that is what I look for in the articles..how much scripture exposure.

Pathetic

MARK 8:38

Also

Be not deceived....evil communications corrupt good manners

1 Cor 15

You get to be like the people you hang around..

One can get to not share bible with pastors and others who don't.

[Guest]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Bille, do you ever quote scripture or SOP or do you just shoot from the hip? You abundance of words mean very little to people that hold the bible in their hand.

---

Heads up!

This is the result of the minimize inspiration trend.

When I look at The Advent Review..that is what I look for in the articles..how much scripture exposure.

Pathetic

MARK 8:38

Also

Be not deceived....evil communications corrupt good manners

1 Cor 15

You get to be like the people you hang around..

One can get to not share bible with pastors and others who don't.

---

JimBob maybe the bible was RAPTURED from Bille hands like these verse that were RAPTURED out of the NIV translation, a spurious interperation they forced on all the Adventist students years ago.

Try finding these verses in the NIV

Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which is lost.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 23:17 For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.

John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

Acts 8: 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 15:34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

Acts 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands.

Acts 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[Bille]

Quote:

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Bille, do you ever quote scripture or SOP or do you just shoot from the hip? . . . .

You have not use scripture even once in your attack on my posts.Why is this??

---

I never "proof text" and I never load texts or quotes into an assault weapon and spray them indescrimately over the area.

If I handle scripture, I do so paying attention to context and sound principles of interpretation. If I comment on an Ellen White quotation, I do research on the context and historical setting, and report on that. I take into consideration Ellen's own instructions saying that if one was going to quote her, then the whole passage should be used, not just an excerpt, for she had not written a book of proverbs.

As a matter of fact, I DID give a quote from Ellen White ... and I gave the online source where anyone could check the context for themselves. I have so far not seen any evidence that anyone noticed or went to read the document.

[Bille]

Quote:

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[:"blue"] Ed White: [/] Bille suggested the following in her post above.

---

Before I look at each example Ed gave, let's take a look at what I actually said:

Quote:

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[:"blue"] Bille: [/] No church is saved in its entirety, but the promises for each are given to individuals ... those who overcome.

---

That is, salvation is not assured by belonging to any specific church. Salvation is assured only to the overcomers in each church. Where Ed got his word "Condition" as being synonymous with "church" I know not. But since he claims to be quoting me, I shall insert the word that I actually used in each place. Yes, the condition of each church is described. And yes, some conditions are more favorable than others. But the "condition" is not what saves. Christ gives the prescription for each condition, and he makes promises as to what will be their specific rewards ... if they accept the remedy he gives and overcomes in the specific areas he describes. Now let us look at the three specific churches Ed makes statements about.

Quote:

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[bille said]#1 That the Philadelphia [CHURCH](not CONDITION) will not be saved in it's entirety.

[This is wrong. They are the 144,000 that have the seal of God & the Fathers name in their forehead.] Rev.3:12 & 14:1

---

Let us look at the words of the text.

[:"blue"]

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [/]

Notice that there is the command/condition/warning, "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" and that the promised rewards (as in all the churches), are only to "Him that overcometh".

As for these being the 144,000, no doubt Ed is making a direct connection between the "new name" of the promise to Philadelphia and the "Father's name written in their foreheads" of Rev. 14:1.

[:"blue"] Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. [/]

But is this connection with its implied limitation warrented? I do not believe that it is. The promises to each of the churches are couched in terms that are significant in relation to the problems they face in their churches. But do not ALL of the redeemed, in fact, receive all of the promises? For example, are we to fancy that only the overcomers in the Ephesus church will have the right to "eat of the tree of life"? We are dealing with symbols in Revelation, and as such we will get into very deep trouble very quickly if we do not allow the symbols to move freely and together in order to convey their complete message.

Quote:

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[:"blue"] Ed White: [/] [bille said] #2. The Smyrna church [the CHURCH, not the "CONDITION"] will not all be saved.

[They will all be saved, as they will be those "faithful to death", those in this CONDITION, in the near future, after the "image" beast is set up Rev. 2:8-10. Rev. 20:4

---

Again, let's look at the text.

Notice that the phrase "faithful unto death" is not a statement that they WILL be that, but a command and a conditional promise, "BE thou faithful unto death , and I will give thee a crown of life."

[:"blue"] 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death , and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. [/]

And again, the promise is given to "He that overcometh"-- the individuals in the church who overcome by obeying the command "Be thou faithful".

Quote:

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[:"blue"] Ed White: [/][bille said] #3. The Laodecean church CONDITION is acceptable with heaven.

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Actually, of course, I said nothing of the kind. What I said was that, just like the other churches, individual Laodiceans are saved individually. No one is saved just because he belongs to a certain church. No church is saved as a corporate entity.

Quote:

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[That is not true as they will ALL be spewed out just like the bible says. Rev. 3:15

Laodeacean is a CONDITION and NOT A PERIOD of time!!! Get real TV bible students!!!]

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Once again, let us look at the text.

[:"blue"] 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [/]

Again, note that there are overcomers in Laodicea, and that it is to these that the promise is given. The message is more detailed than those to other churches. It contains both a more detailed description of the Laodicean problems and a more detailed list of things to do to correct the problem. But they are summed up in the two words, "be zealous and repent" ... and the further assurance that Christ is right there at their heart's door and will, if they but open the door, enter and "sup" with them.

The opening expression of nausea does sound as though it was a "sure thing" that God would spew them out. But God quickly leaves that metaphor and moves on to detail their problems, the solutions, his love for them, the actions they should take, the immediate benefits of his companionship in this life, and finally moves on to the promise at the end: "Him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne". What beautiful symetry. He comes to us in this life, entering our humble abodes and "supping" with us, and promises the overcomers the privilege of sitting with Him on his throne!

Why would anyone wish to leave Laodicea for some other church when such rich blessings are promised to the overcomers in Laodicea!?!