Silver Spring, we have a problem.

[wicklunds]

Quote:

---

Gregory Matthews said:

Today (October 16, 2004) I attended a church service where Dick Duerksen preached. I do not have any official figures in regard to the attendence. I would sugget 1,200 or more. But, for accuracy, let us say at least 1,000 people attended.

Dick probably violated the preaching mores of some of the people posting here in CA. He did not use a lot of Scripture. He told stories. But, you know what, he kept the attention of 1,000, or more, people.

---

This reminds me of a particular course I was taking in college. On this one particular day we were talking about different methods psychologists use for treating the psychologically compromised. Someone brought up hypnotism, which was actually discussed as a viable method of treatment in our textbook, and the professor very blithely began to discount the traditional SDA (from the SOP) rejection of this SATANIC, mind-altering way of "helping" the affected individual.

Is it any wonder why there are some who insist we bring in preachers who seem to tantalize large groups? Makes you wonder about Rick Warren and the whole Saddleback Church phenomenon.

[wicklunds]

In case you were wondering about Dick Duerkson, here is some more information...he apparently has some connections with Ron Gladden, a man who disconnected himself from the SDA mainline quite recently. Gladden, I believe, is now captain of the Mission Catalyst Network, a congregationalist offshoot in the Portland/Vancouver area. I found this video online and apparently the two have worked together in the past. Is this what you promote here Mr. Matthews? A fragmentation of the SDA body? ....

Permission To Worship, Permission To Change

by Dick Duerkson

Advent Source

Co-Authored by Ron Gladden. This video seminar offers help to people interested in bringing a new, fresh, exuberant meaning to Sabbath worship. Use this with your worship team, church board, elders or pastoral staff. Also includes book. (VHS)

Taken from:

http://www.nadei.org/resources/churchgrowth3.html

[cardw]

Well, if we are going to talk about hynotism, one might want to look at the effect William Miller's teaching had on people. Here are a few examples of the effect on children...

Quote:

---

In a sermon preached by the Reverend James A. Hayne in the Congregational Church in South Wilbraham during that period, he told the following anecdote as a warning to his parishioners in regard to the influence of Prophet Miller's prophecy on a child's mind.

"A little girl," he stated, "terrified by the talk of the world coming to an end and the burning up of the wicked, said, 'Mother I want to die this summer - I don't want to live next year and be burnt up!'"

---

Quote:

---

An account of what children went through at that time appeared in "The Outlook" of May 18, 1908, written by Jane Marsh Parker who wrote from personal experience. Brother Marsh was a familiar figure in "The Midnight Cry," being quoted repeatedly, and his daughter's reminiscences, therefore, are doubly interesting. A few extracts will reveal the pressure under which these little people lived:

"I was six years old [A.D. 1843] when my father, the pastor of a country parish in eastern New York, 'come out of Babylon,' burned his ships behind him, and moved his family to Rochester to fill the place designated for him by Father Miller as head of the western centre of the Movement, becoming the head of the weekly journal and of countless publications of the cause. His home was a port of storms for the travelling preachers, and their families as well, and its elastic hospitality included a large contingent of the faithful from the country roundabout, who had left their all to spend the remnant of time remaining in constant attendance upon the meetings of the believers. The prospect of 'all going up together with a shout' was ample compensation for sleeping on our parlor floor, as many had to do, and for leaving their babies overmuch through the day to the compulsory care of my mother's children.

"That the trumpet might sound any moment we children were in no danger of forgetting that summer, for, although a day had been set for the End, there was a possibility of another mistake in calculating periods; in misinterpretations, in missing links, etc. That it would not do to run any risks in disobedience was heavy on our infantile minds. We must do our best in caring for the babies left all too often on our hands. Dread expectancy of hearing the 'awful trump' became wonderfully dulled in the long tarrying - happily - but that the day was coming nearer that would burn as an oven, we never forgot. I knew what the heat of an old-fashioned brick oven was like - the sudden opening of a door once had singed my hair. I threw my rag doll upon a blaze of garden rubbish one day and, watching it shrivel to ashes, I learned what to be 'burned up root and branch' was like - and I with a green apple in my pocket that minute! 'If the Lord comes before morning, may I be caught up to meet Him in the air,' I never failed to say at night. Poor little Millerite! 'Father would see that I was caught up in time out of the fire' (I said to myself), 'but then there were three of us little girls, and mother besides - and thunder and lightening always made her faint dead away.' Of course my kitten would have to go! - and a little boy I liked who said swear words! But these moods were brief, and came only when I had been very naughty. So all in all I did not have such a very bad time that summer, for there was no going to school, nor multiplication table, nor spelling book; - but then we had to read a good deal in our Bibles, and recite from a catechism on the Book of Daniel, making it plain as could be that the world was coming to and end that very year.

---

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

wicklunds said:

Quote:

---

Gregory Matthews said:

Dick... He did not use a lot of Scripture. He told stories. But, you know what, he kept the attention of 1,000, or more, people.

---

---

After the Korean conflict (not a war since it was undeclared, though upward of 50,000? Americans died) I attended night school for the purpose of study

to obtain an education required for a certificate as an accountant. The teacher lectured for the full hour or two each time we attended, with full attention by all, but as providence would have it approximately 75-80% of his lecturing covered homespun stories on various subjects far removed from anything relating to accounting.

Not as serious a lapse in teaching as those concerning spiritual subjects, yet pointing out the reality that Jesus is the best Teacher when investigating things He has originated for eternal consumption. Personal study of the Scripture need not depend upon supposedly superior theological intelligence from another human being, save Jesus, to find the Way to eternal salvation.

At one time I wouldn't step on an ant as I considered it contrary to the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill". But I went on to know, by the grace of God, the Person of Jesus Himself. The "ant issue" was adequately explained.

[:"red"] "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." [/]

1 Cor 13:11 KJV

Something (Someone) keeps nudging me, telling me I still have a few childish things I need to give up.

BTW, I didn't gain enough knowledge to get my certificate of accounting. Was it because I had a poor teacher, or because I didn't have the inner fortitude to search further to advance myself? Or maybe it was because there were no teachers smart enough elsewhere, to teach me. I'm sure there are many reasons that can be arrived at to totally absolve myself from any responsibility for my failure to reach my goal.

[:"red"] "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes..." [/] Proverbs 21:2 KJV

[:"red"] "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." [/] Hosea 6:3 KJV

[:"red"] "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." [/] John 5:39 KJV

[cardw]

In terms of story telling I think we can look to Jesus. I would not say that his sermons quoted scripture all that much. I would say that his deepest wisdom came through stories.

I have found that the real world and the theoretical are quite different situations. Educational emphasis in spiritual studies might help us pass some test, but application to the real world is the final test to determine if something is true or not.

I may have gone to college and got straight A's but if I can't apply it to the job then its pretty much worthless. I would say that a story often contains much more complex interactions and application than simply defining some rational principle.

[Gregory Matthews]

Dennis, please give me some means of finding the post that you took that statement from. I would like to read the entire post. And, I would like to read it in the context of what had been posted before, and after.

Thank you,

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "

In case you were wondering about Dick Duerkson, here is some more information...he apparently has some connections with Ron Gladden, a man who disconnected himself from the SDA mainline quite recently. Gladden, I believe, is now captain of the Mission Catalyst Network, a congregationalist offshoot in the Portland/Vancouver area. I found this video online and apparently the two have worked together in the past. Is this what you promote here Mr. Matthews? A fragmentation of the SDA body? .... "

The URL that Dennis posted is to a major agency of the Seventh-day Adventist Chruch, the North American Division Evangelism . . . It is clearly identifiec as such.

As is well known in the SDA Chruch, Ron Gladden was a major Seventh-day Adventist leader in church growth. During the time that he was employed by the SDA Chruch, many SDA leaders, ministers, authors, and more were associated with him. When he left to set up Mission Catylist Network, the SDA Church suffered a major loss.

If you page through the URL that Dennis listed, you will note that Dick D. was not the only SDA listed in that URL as haveing a relationship with Ron Gladden. Of course not. As Ron was very active in church growth Conferences Presidents on the local level as well as the Union level were associated with him. So also did North American Dividion leaders have a relationship with him. If Dennis wanted to do so, he could list quite a few. But, the important item of information that he left out was that the relationships that I have referenced above, and this includes Dick D. occured before Ron Gladden set up MCN.

The implication that Dennis made that I support fragmentation of the church due to citing the preaching style of a man who once wrote a book with Ron Gladden is far beyond any kind of credibility.

Dennis, you are some thing else. I expected greater integrity from you than what you have showed here.

[wicklunds]

Well, while we are citing others' lack of integrity, I would think that someone promoting the new congregationalist agenda within the SDA ranks like Ron Gladden had and many, many others in the NW (many Walla Walla College evangelical theologians fit here also) could also be grouped in here.

Many fault the current SDA structure by the changes they are promoting. I am certainly not saying it is perfect, but congregationalism is a model that no connected SDA member would even think of promoting. Talk about a lack of integrity!!! Whoa! these people are the poster children for Lack-of-Integrity University.

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is a statement fron the North American Division Evangelism Institute:

"OUR MISSION

The North American Division Evangelism Institute (NADEI) exists for the express purpose of training soul winners who will be channels of the Holy Spirit in winning men and women to Christ and His truth. . . . and to enable these soul winners to train others in this work.

We provide in-field training for Master of Divinity students at the Theological Seminary at Andrews University. Every class presents practical principles of effective soul winning. Each professor who lectures on the theory of soul winning is a soul winner himself or herself. Students spend hours in the field implementing the principles taught in the classroom. It is this hands-on field training that makes NADEI unique.

The central focus of NADEI is communicating the gospel of Jesus Christ, in the setting of the three angels' messages:

in the most effective way possible

by the most efficiently trained laborers possible

and to as many people as possible."

This agency is clearly connected with the SDA Church, and Andrews University. Prior to his setting up MCN, Ron Gladden worked closely with the North American Division, the Mid-American Union, and a number of local conferences.

It was a greaat loss to the SDA Chruch when Ron set up MCN. Anyone interested in church growth, and spreading the gospel, should know of Ron's association with the SDA Chruch. The evidence is clearly given in the URL that Dennis posted. It is a SDA url, that leads to a SDA website.

God is a God of truth, and God expects His people to be people of truth. To tar someone who simply mentions the name of a person associated with Ron, during the time that Ron was a church employee, as advocating fragmentation of the SDA Chruch is not truth, and does not come from God.

[wicklunds]

Well I know one thing, even if what you are saying is true, I would not choose to put myself in any congregation where this Dick Duerkson were going to be giving any message. Say what you want to about my faith, but I know this much...

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Well, while we are citing others' lack of integrity, I would think that someone promoting the new congregationalist agenda within the SDA ranks like Ron Gladden had and many, many others in the NW (many Walla Walla College evangelical theologians fit here also) could also be grouped in here."

Dennis, here again, your are inaccurate in your statements.

1) If you were to say that Ron Gladden is currently promoting a congregationalist agenda in the SDA Chruch, I would NOT argue with you. Some might make an arguement based upon a defination of the work "congregationalist." But, I would not as I beleive the Ron is currently promoting a congregationalist agenda.

2) Go to the URL that you listed. If you go to the right page, you will see dozens (I did not count them.) of what are called "cell" churches. I am well aware of the manner in which such cell churches have been organiazed, as the Conference in which I live has had several. Some have been failures, and have ended up seperateing from the SDA Church. Unfortunately in one well-known example, one departed from basic SDA teachings, after it formally seperated.

3) But, that has not been the experience of all such cell churches. Those who know their organization would not call them congregationalist churches. They are closely tied to the local Conference. They live and act within the bounds established by the local Conference, and they are NOT independent of the local Conference.

4) Those churches are experimental churches. As such they may chose to have some non-traditional aspects in their life and ministry. [E.G. I know of one such church that requires all member to undergo an annual membership review. People who are not actively participating in soul-winning activities of the congregation are not allowed to continue as members. I could give other exampels.] Some might argue with those non-traditional aspects. But, they are not doing those due to an independent stance. They do them due to a Conference administration that has allowed them to do such as an experiment.

5) I am aware that some of these cell curches have not been effective in their mission. I am thinking right now of one the is in the process of ceasing to function, due to its failure to effectively do its misssion. But, its members are returning to other local, traditional, SDA chruches. They are not setting up their own independent congregation.

6) Some may criticize when they see failure. I say the success is often built upon learning from one's failures. I am NOT going to criticize a Conference President who allows an experiment to take placae, and that then fails.

[wicklunds]

Who is criticizing a conference president...all I was trying to say was that you support the preachers who reflect your ideas...which I see as warped and distracting to the heart of the SDA mission.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . .you support the preachers who reflect your ideas...which I see as warped and distracting to the heart of the SDA mission."

1) You do not have the slightest idea as to what SDA preachers I support.

2) Tell me, do you have any idea as to what Dick Durkeson does? Do you even know whether or not he is a preacher? You certainly do not know whether or not I support him.

3) Dennis, with you jumping to conclusions, going far beyond the evidence, and what I have seen as a general lack of integrity in your recent posts, in my opinion, you lack credibility. With what I see in you in regard to what I know, I am finding it less and less likly that what you say about others to be accurate.

[wicklunds]

Well, I am not judging merely by what I have read on this thread but how you have cut and moderated in your own territories. So lets not call my credibility into question here Mr. Matthews. Your reputation precedes you.

Dennis

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . . all I was trying to say was that you support the preachers who reflect your ideas..."

To set the record straight: I support a number of preachers with whom I disagree. There is a reason for this:

a) I do not think that I an 100% correct in everything that I beleive.

I believe that God is working in, and through, a number of people. Therefore, I will support people that I think that God is using, regardless of whether I agree with them.

c) I support people that I see as firmly grounded in Scripture, even when I may disagree with a position that they have taken.

d) I do not believe that any person has 100% of the truth. I.e. I disagree with most people on some point.

e) I Believe that God allows some of the diversity of opinion that exists withing the SDA Chruch today for God's own purpose. Therefore I do not attempt to stifle such.

How do I support such:

1) In some cases, I have provided some financial support.

2) I have often recommended them to people whom I felt they could spiritually help.

3) I have also supported them in other ways.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Your reputation precedes you."

Good.

[wicklunds]

Good... at least we agree on that!!!

[bevin]

Quote:

---

I say the success is often built upon learning from one's failures. I am NOT going to criticize a Conference President who allows an experiment to take placae, and that then fails.

---

People who don't make mistakes don't make anything

/Bevin

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

---

wicklunds said:

Well I know one thing, even if what you are saying is true, I would not choose to put myself in any congregation where this Dick Duerkson were going to be giving any message. Say what you want to about my faith, but I know this much...

---

If I might chime in here, that would indeed be your loss. I can only conclude that such a statement would be made from an obvious position of willful ignorance and rather obvious prejudice. I say "obvious" since it is rather apparent that you do not know Dick Duerksen nor anything about him. Since it is apparent to me that your mind is closed I won't even attempt to pry it open with the truth....

Tom

[Gregory Matthews]

Tom:

I certainly was not saying anything that would reasonably give Dennis such an idea. Here, Dennis has clearly demonstrated that he makes judgements from ignorance, and really does not want to know the truth. He has a preset orientation to the SDA Chruch.

[Neil D]

Quote:

---

Tom Wetmore said:

Quote:

---

wicklunds said:

Well I know one thing, even if what you are saying is true, I would not choose to put myself in any congregation where this Dick Duerkson were going to be giving any message. Say what you want to about my faith, but I know this much...

---

If I might chime in here, that would indeed be your loss. I can only conclude that such a statement would be made from an obvious position of willful ignorance and rather obvious prejudice. I say "obvious" since it is rather apparent that you do not know Dick Duerksen nor anything about him. Since it is apparent to me that your mind is closed I won't even attempt to pry it open with the truth....

Tom

---

Amen! Amen! and Amen!

I am aquainted with Dick Dirksen, his being involved in Company One [a PUC drama group] and subsequent following his lectures given to confrences from time to time. The man is given to inovation, both in preaching and in evangelism. The reason is quite simple...the traditional model of preaching and evangelism maintains marginally the status quo membership for the church...and slowly changes it into a self serving group. Dick is using innovative ideas to change the thinking of the SDA church in a more positive mannor and creating a positive atomsphere in attracting new members who have more creative ideas for the SDA church.

The negitive casting of Dick is what causes the bright lights to wink out for lack of support.

Quote:

---

He has a preset orientation to the SDA Chruch.

---

This "preset orientation" is ultra conservative in orientation, and very narrow...This is what is so sad...In every sense of the word,these ideas are embodied in the words "a follower, not a leader" of ideas. The tail nor the head of the organization. What is truely sad is that these same technics to evangelise since EGW times, have been used in the old culture [which were sucessful THEN] but culture has become ...diffeent...more sophisticated...and most of all, changed in values and attention...the old techniques don't work unless you glean the principles and apply them to new techniques....Some have even gone so far as to create NEW principles that have proven effectivness in creating new congreations...Unfortunately, some hold to the view that the old ways are better...It is indeed a sad commentary. People like Dick Dirksen and Ron Gladden worked hard to bring about this change in mindset and attitude...As evidence by these two men, some continue to work for change...others got burned out within the church and feel the need to work outside the church...but are still a part of the SDA movement...

[wicklunds]

Hey!! noone will oppose your new methods in the church...in fact, you will be welcomed with open arms in many sectors. Out with the old and in with the new seems to be the order of the day. It doesnt necessarily make it a thus saith the Lord though. Time will tell. When the fruit of apostasy has fully ripened, the exodus and betrayal will be vast and violent. Your best friend will sell you out for a mess of pottage to the Roman inquisitors because you shunned his "new methods" during a time of relative ease. The same could be said of some who defend the "pillars". But I generally see these new methods as gross spiritual betrayals of truth. This includes the new theology and the Ron Gladden "cell church" phenomenon. Go and have your large meetings with no scripture readings. You can bet where scripture is not being read and upheld, truth will not prevail. Dick Duerkson or not...

[Neil D]

Regarding that ""cell church phenomenon" that you complain about....and that you imply is bad for the church because it doens't get the new people involve in bible study...

Well, my church decided to plan for the future, and a elected a group of us to plan for the growth of the church...we came to the conclusion, thru the SOP that cell groups, you know, that "phenomenon" that you so distastefully sneered at, was what we came to conclude would be the best evangelism that we could provide. The interesting thing is that cell groups is not only bible based, it is also friend based. IOWs, you invite your friends to a great gettogether, have a bible studies, prayer [for your friends and family and yourselves] and you become more intimate with people...very satisfying over time.

So, Dennis, you can sneer all you want to over cell groups, whose base is in the SOP, God ordained method for evangelizm, God centered intamcy between people, known and be known among church member, and God ordained from the bible and SOP. I don't know if l would invite you to our little get together, and based upon your posts, I don't know if my group would be willing to invite you....

And that, my dear Dennis, is you loss...

[wicklunds]

Niel,

I did not mean for my last post to be a personal attack against your post, but rather a response to the last three previous by yourself, Gregory, and Tom. I am sorry if I seemed in a sneering attitude before, but I see these churches for what they truly are, compromise with the enemy. But I must say that generally these cell churches and new methods churches, employing new worship styles, attempting to cater to a more "contemporary" and "modern" needs group have failed to live up to remnant standards. But even so-called conservatives are failing in this respect now... We have had all the light shed on our path in times past, now all we need to do is deny ourselves the luxuries of Western thought and seek out where we wandered off and re-enter at the narrow gate. If we are not humble enough to admit this, there will be no revival or reformation. Liberal or conservative, traditional or new theology...it matters little. We must remember how God has lead in the past or we will continue to stumble over past failures.

Respectfully,

Dennis

[Bravus]

(Response to the whole thread, not just Dennis' last post)

Once again, the notion that anything new is *by definition bad, because it's new* just seems bizarre to me, given how new the creation of the Seventh-day Adventist church was when it was created, not that long ago in historical terms. If there's something theologically wrong with a different approach to 'doing church', then that case can be made, but 'it's bad because it's new' is not that case.