Silver Spring, we have a problem.

[Gregory Matthews]

Bravus:

The issue is:

1) Dennis casts all into one basket, and fails to recognize that there are marked differences.

2) He reads the posts here with a closed mind, and really does not hear what people are saying.

[wicklunds]

I would concur as long as the old light received has not been neglected in the "new movement". The problem is finding that several months down the road the person who brought in the "new method" stole it from an apostate. We don't look for new methods where the Lord has not lead in the past.

[wicklunds]

No I hear loud and clear...Its just that I do not submit...

[Tom Wetmore]

Dennis,

Since it is my perception that one of the few voices that you seem consistently open to is that of EGW, perhaps you would take the time to search for and carefully consider what she has to say about "new methods". Just to get you started here is one of my favorites:

Quote:

---

With intense interest

God

is looking on this world. He has noted the capacity of human beings for service. Looking down the ages, He has counted His workers,

both men and women

, and has prepared the way before them,

saying: "

I will send My messengers to them, and they shall see great light shining amid the darkness. Won to the service of Christ, they will use their talents to the glory of My name. They will go forth to work for Me with zeal and devotion. Through their efforts the truth will appeal to thousands in a most forcible manner, and men spiritually blind will receive sight and will see of My salvation. Truth will be made so prominent that he who runs may read. Ways will be devised to reach hearts.

Some of the methods used in this work will be different from the methods used in the past,

but let no one, because of this, block the way by criticism.

"

{7T 25.1} - emphasis added

---

Please notice exactly Who it is that EGW is quoting. That last sentence of the quote that EGW attributes to God himself could not be clearer and more appropo... In the event that this is not enough or that you are unable to find more statements by EGW along these lines, I am happy to post more, as I have a whole bunch of them...

Tom

[wicklunds]

Tom,

Thank you for your caring and eloquent post. One thing worth pointing out to the casual observer though... There is a class of of Seventh-day Adventists who will rationalize what they do as God's work by employing "new methods", but when they go to church they make sure Ellen White is not quoted from by those ones following her (and God's) counsel faithfully. In your case I am not sure if you fit into this category, but it would not surprise me. And if such is the case, what bad form it would be to quote this passage in your defense. This is the worse kind of hypocrisy and evasive unbelief known to modern religion. But here again I don't really know if you are one of these...

Dennis

[wicklunds]

Tom,

You can run but you cannot hide...from God.

Dennis

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

wicklunds said:

I don't really know if you are one of these...

Dennis

---

[:"red"] "Then Jesus told this story to some who had great self-confidence and scorned everyone else:

"Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a dishonest tax collector. The proud Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: `I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don't sin, I don't commit adultery, I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, `O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.' I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For the proud will be humbled, but the humble will be honored." [/]

Luke 18:9-14 NLT

[wicklunds]

Life,

If you have something to say, shoot straight and say it. CoAspen thinks he has me boxed in...

And He said unto Him, "Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Mat. 19:17 NASB

Dennis

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

---

wicklunds said:

Tom,

You can run but you cannot hide...from God.

Dennis

---

????????? Like, DUH!! But who is running and who is hiding? And what does that strange interjection have to do with anything, anyway? (These are rhetorical questions which need no reply as it would drag us further off-topic anyway...)

Dennis,

Since the above EGW quote was apparently not a sufficiently clear, "Thus saith...", I will offer a few more for you to contemplate. Even with the highlighted "...let no one... block the way by criticism" your reaction was to leap to a point of criticism. Despite my initial recognition that no amount of prying will work, here are some more quotes:

Quote:

---

He will bless all who work out the spirit which He works in. To such workers He will give favor and success. As field after field is entered,

new methods and new plans

will spring from

new circumstances. New thoughts

will come with the new workers who give themselves to the work. As they seek the Lord for help, He will communicate with them.

They will receive plans devised by the Lord Himself.

Souls will be converted, and money will come in. {6T 476.2}

---

Quote:

---

The prevailing monotony of the religious round of service in our churches needs to be disturbed. The leaven of activity needs to be introduced that our church members may work along

new lines

, and devise

new methods

. The Holy Spirit's power will move upon hearts when this dead, lifeless monotony is broken up,... {TM 204.1}

---

Quote:

---

From Christ's methods of labor we may learn many valuable lessons. He did not follow merely one method; in various ways He sought to gain the attention of the multitude and, having succeeded in this, He proclaimed to them the truths of the gospel. {CH 387.1}

---

Quote:

---

In the cities of today, where there is so much to attract and please, the people can be interested by

no ordinary efforts

. Ministers of God's appointment will find it necessary to put forth

extraordinary efforts

in order to

arrest the attention

of the multitudes. And when they succeed in bringing together a large number of people, they must bear messages of a character so

out of the usual order

that the people will be aroused and warned. They must

make use of every means that can possibly be devised

for causing the truth to stand out clearly and distinctly.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 109. (1909) {Ev 122.3}

---

Quote:

---

Let every worker in the Master's vineyard, study, plan, devise methods, to reach the people where they are. We must do something

out of the common course of things

.

We must arrest the attention

. We must be deadly in earnest. We are on the very verge of times of trouble and perplexities that are scarcely dreamed of.--Letter 20, 1893. {Ev 122-3}

---

Quote:

---

We are to study the field carefully and are not to think that we must follow the same methods in every place. . . {Ev 125.3}

---

Quote:

---

Workers with clear minds are needed to devise methods for reaching the people. Something must be done to break down the prejudice existing in the world against the truth.--Letter 152, 1901. {Ev 129.1}

---

Quote:

---

There are some minds which do not grow with the work but allow the work to grow far beyond them. . . . Those who do not discern and adapt themselves to the increasing demands of the work, should not stand blocking the wheels, and thus hindering the advancement of others.--Letter 45, 1889. {Ev 104.4}

---

Quote:

---

There must be no fixed rules;

our work is a progressive work

, and there must be room left for methods to be improved upon. But under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, unity must and will be preserved.--Review and Herald, July 23, 1895. {Ev 105.1}

---

Quote:

---

Men are needed who pray to God for wisdom, and who, under the guidance of God, can put

new life into the old methods

of labor and can

invent new plans and new methods

of awakening the interest of church members and reaching the men and women of the world.--Manuscript 117, 1907. {Ev 105.3}

---

Quote:

---

Let us not forget that

different methods

are to be employed to save different ones.--Review and Herald, April 14, 1903. {Ev 106.2}

---

Quote:

---

New methods must be introduced.

God's people must awake to the necessities of the time in which they are living. God has men whom He will call into His service,--men who will not carry forward the work in the lifeless way in which it has been carried forward in the past. . . .

Let no one hinder these men of God's appointment. Forbid them not. God has given them their work

.... --Review and Herald, Sept. 30, 1902. {Ev 70.2}

---

Quote:

---

We fully believe in church organization; but this is not to prescribe the exact way in which we should work, for

not all minds are to be reached by the same methods.

-- 6T 116.

---

Quote:

---

On the other hand, the leaders among God's people are to guard against the danger of condemning the methods of individual workers who are led by the Lord to do a special work that but few are fitted to do. Let brethren in responsibility be slow to criticize movements that are not in perfect harmony with their methods of labor. Let them never suppose that every plan should reflect their own personality. Let them not fear to trust another's methods; for by withholding their confidence from a brother laborer who, with humility and consecrated zeal, is doing a special work in God's appointed way, they are retarding the advancement of the Lord's cause. {9T 259.1}

---

Tom

[Neil D]

Quote:

---

but I see these churches for what they truly are, compromise with the enemy.

---

Well, as I compare my experience with those who have gone on to these "new contempary" churches, I think that they are a fit for those people who desire thier walk with Jesus to be more personable, more real and more of an "in touch" with Jesus experience than the traditional churches provide. They de-emphasize the impersonal doctrines that they have grown up with, and attempt to get personal with thier corperate relationship with God. By utilizing the doctrines as a framework to work within the church, they are free to emphasis more of that "personal, get in touch with Jesus" experince that truely mobilizes and frees people of thier personal hang up. That means that the doctrines form the framework for the church. You want to be a leader in this church, you have to study those boring doctrines to understand where this 'contempory' church is headed. Compare that model with the traditional model where you study the doctrines at church and allow personal worship to be studied at your leizure at home. This reversal of emphasis has mobilized those contemporary churches into a sucessfull evangelistic outreaches.

Having compared what is going on with those contemprary churches with traditional churches, I can now deal with people whose motivation for snubbing the contempory church is totally baseless. AS the contempory chruch is far more biblical and even more closer to the remenat church protrayed in the bible than the traditional SDA church, I fail to see why you would even want to snub, sneer and bring negitivity to the church at all. Praise God that our church is begining to be as many things as there are people in thier search for a personal relationship with God. I can only conclude, Dennis, that such views as yours are not only un-biblical, but whose source is diabolically of doubbious origions, not heavenly ones.

Which prompts me to ask you....Do you truely know Jesus as your savior? Or are you someone who THINKS that you do?

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Do you truely know Jesus as your savior? Or are you someone who THINKS that you do?"

None of us can truely know whether Dennis knows Christ as his Saviour. And, it is inappropriate for us to respond to him in a manner that might suggest that he does not.

On a personal basis, I think that he could know Christ as his Saviour, and still respond as he does to us.

What I might say is that he posts in a manner that does NOT reflect, to me, one who has joy in his life and the Lord. He just does not appar to be spiritually happy.

NOTE: Dennis, I am responding to Neil. I know that you do not like me to respond to you. So, in this case, I am not. But perhaps I will respond to you in other posts. Just not this one.

[Neil D]

Quote:

---

On a personal basis, I think that he could know Christ as his Saviour, and still respond as he does to us

---

Gregory, while I agree that it is possible for a person to reply and promote negitivity, but a follwer of Christ is open to change in light of biblical and SOP evidence. As such, this follower would eventually change over time into a more humble and caring person. Dennis, based upon his posts, has demonstrated NO such change. This is NOT a judgement call, just observation. Indeed, a person who has not submitted to those holy forces does indeed submit to a force and will display and exhibit those very things that he so despises...

Just my experience talking here....

Oh, and Dennis, please excuse us as we are clarifying a point before we go on with you. Please be patient while Gregory and I clarify this point....

[Gregory Matthews]

The distinctions between observations and judgements is important.

One part of that is that observations of how someone else presents him/herself to the one making a comment is clearly not a judgement.

[Neil D]

Um Dennis, could you wait a minute while Gregory and I make a clarification to this....

Quote:

---

The distinctions between observations and judgements is important

---

Yes, it is. and I totally agree with this. And this is so important to note and decide the differences between observations and judgements.

Quote:

---

What I might say is that he posts in a manner that does NOT reflect, to me, one who has joy in his life and the Lord. He just does not appar to be spiritually happy.

---

Wouldn't you say that this is a conclusion based upon various observations thru the interactions that you have had with Dennis? Indeed, we all have had these same type of interactions with him that have left us with this conclusion based upon our interactions with him...So, in essence, could we say that our interaction with Dennis has been negitive with no positive aspect, with the exception that his opinion was the true opinion? [Hang on, Dennis, I will be with you in a moment]. Could you come to the conclusion that his experience is a lacking one in which God has NOT fulfilled his life? Is this not contrary to the bible where God has promised to give Dennis an "abundant life"? If this is the case, could we not come to the conclusion that God is not fulfilling his life, because [since God has promise to fulfill it, provided that he comes to Him], that he has moved away from God? Truely, a person is a sad person if they have moved away from God, especially if they are belittling and sneering toward fellow Christians, as Dennis has done.... [i will be with you in a moment, Dennis]. It would be reasonable to assume, wouldn't it, that Dennis does not have God, or has moved away from God and God is not able to reach him...Isn't htat correct?

So, my question would be a legitament one, wouldn't it, since Christ said to go out into all the world and make deciples of Him.

So, as I turn to Dennis, I ask again, Is Jesus the Lord of your life or do you just think He is?

[wicklunds]

Neil,

I am smitten by your concern for my spiritual welfare even though our AF relations in times past have been checkered at best. It is my firm belief that part of faith is seeking God as if I were starving of thirst in the dryest desert even when times seem easy. The problem is overcoming personal unbelief when I feel God has taken me off His shoulders...

After having gone through a college that has undermined my initial salvific experience in having been won over by traditional SDA soul-winning methods, I am remiss to find that sweet, somewhat naive, honeymoon assurance I had previously. Christ does not leave us in the same feeling-based experience forever. He Himself was driven into the desert to be tempted after having been baptised.

So in answer to your question, yes, I would like to believe He is Lord of my life... but knowing how you post, I would have to answer your question with a question, What do you mean by Lord of my life??

Thanks,

Dennis

[cricket]

**bump**

[Nicodema]

hahahaha

bump

just cuz.