Silver Spring, we have a problem.

[Bille]

Quote:

---

[:"blue"] JimBob: [/]When God places on your heart a topic...find it in several places in scripture where the topic is covered.

Focus on the most comprehensive text dealing with that topic.

Then look at the surrounding support context.

As you use SOP or a commentary see how the supporting context deal with the cognitive/relational tangents of that topic.

As you preach with the comprehensive text.. with your topic as the main theme...you can minister to a variety of maturity levels that way..because you add detail and bridges to the topic....hope that makes sense to you.

You see..the Spirit inspires the text and the flow/buildup.. toward the theme..as well as the following verses are also inspired.

This way the listener can have the aid of the Holy Spirit when the are edging toward that theme in their life and hear clues/warning that they are nearing boundaries or be encouraged as they get clues that they are approaching ground that is blessed.

This is edifying for the faith experience.

---

Well now isn't this interesting.

While I haven't taken a course in homiletics, I have attended a few seminars, dialogued with a few homiletics teachers, and attended a few classes in which the subject of sermon preparation came up. And essentially, what I have heard there is very similar to what you have said here. Translate your "detail and bridges" into illustrations and stories and personal experiences, and you have just described a "topical sermon" as given by a great number of Adventist preachers.

Which seems to suggest that maybe your wholesale condemnation of all preachers in the SDA church and all listeners and all teachers of preachers is not really warranted ... which I and I'm sure most others on this forum already knew ... but it's nice to have you confirm this as fact by describing the very type of sermon preparation that is taught in our colleges, universities, and seminaries, and that many of us listen to and are blessed by from week to week in our local churches and on our television sets.

So what really is your "beef" with Adventist ministers and their sermons?

[Bille]

Quote:

---

[:"blue"] JimBob: [/] Anyone care to share the sermon debriefing of today from their church???

---

The only time that I even consider doing a critical analysis of a sermon or other presentation at my church is when the person himself has specifically asked me to do that ... and then I go with notebook and pen and report to him alone my thoughts in the areas he asked me to critique.

Other than that, I share the specific blessing or helpful thought that I received from it. And while I'll admit to being very critical (in my younger years) of some of the very inept sermons I was unfortunate enough to have to sit through (especially those given by barely literate deacons who were pressed into service in the absence of their itinerant minister) I have learned that by taking the attitude that God will have a blessing for me in the day's sermon, He indeed does, without fail. So I find it much more spiritually profitable to concentrate on looking for blessings than on looking for flaws or counting texts!

Quote:

---

As much as I think my current pastor is a for real serious, no nonsense, caring pastor...

today's TOPICAL SERMON covered 3 verses and used 4 stories..

let's see 3 verses a week and 30,000 verses in the bible....hmm

Do we have 10,000 weeks/sabbaths til Jesus comes???

---

"Let's see"... Is the Bible chained to the pulpit? Are we confined to only those verses that are read from the pulpit each week? I think not. And furthermore, though the minister might read at high speed for the whole hour of worship, and cover many verses, chapters, and even whole books, that would not be sufficient to be our total number of verses for the week. And further-furthermore, it would be in direct contradiction to Ellen White who cautioned us that one passage fully examined is worth more than many passages lightly gone over.

Oh well ...

[Guest]

Quote:

---

So what

really

is your "beef" with Adventist ministers and their sermons?

---

You gave a clue in your reply....it is when too much baggage is added to the essence of the text and the person goes away with remembering the stories and experience and that eclipses the power of the Word of God.

It is a matter of exposure, balance and emphasis.

Who is talking in the pulpit...a person or God??

Think of this...

When we have an eclipse of the Sun(SON) by the moon(MAN)...doesn't it get dark???

I posted to darlene about coming up with a comprehensive text because that way the before and after texts would get taught as well..so more scripture exposure.

Whatever you have learned in your associations with homiletic classes or speakers...this is usually not the case.

The peripheral texts DO NOT get exposure.. The choice is almost always on the topic verse or verses.

I do not yield or stand corrected.

I do not agree with your opinion of the masses getting blessed.

They are being cursed..

That is what the Laodicean message is about...

SELF DECEPTION!

Rich???naaa really poor

The pew potatoes are either starving as I have posted regarding the result of the survey..where the #1 complaint is that listeners are not being fed

...or they are deceived into thinking they are Rich..

Yeah right..

I don't buy Brooklyn Bridges.

Even in the sabbath school counsel meeting..the very energetic pastor's wife of 20-30 years of experience mentioned about the problem of North America churches..yet failed to diagnose the problem.

So what is my beef??

The CLERGY ar incompetent and poorly trained and the ministerial directors have little vision regarding preaching

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Other than that, I share the specific blessing or helpful thought that

I

received from it. And while I'll admit to being very critical (in my younger years) of some of the very inept sermons I was unfortunate enough to have to sit through (especially those given by barely literate deacons who were pressed into service in the absence of their itinerant minister) I have learned that by taking the attitude that God will have a blessing for

me

in the day's sermon, He indeed does, without fail. So I find it much more spiritually profitable to concentrate on looking for blessings than on looking for flaws or counting texts!

---

I know that by your recent arrival you are at a disadvantage to my posts..however your words here support what I have posted before.

That sermons promote the meistic ..what does it have for ME mentality.

I receive something out of every sermon.

If ate a meal that had one single soybean on the plate I would get benefit.

WOW!!!

If I had a glass with 1 teaspoon of non fat dry milk in it ..I would receive some benefit.

Do you get my point??

Now take an SDA churchian who gets 1 teaspoon or a single bean and then gets fed 6 days on WORLD SUPERSIZE BUFFETS!!

Hello. Hello....am I coming in clear?

I am on a TIRADE/CAMAPAIGN because the CLERGY are spiritually starving the pew potatoes.

I spoke with Joe crews about this and John Bradshaw evidently knows this .

I spoke with a Union conference Ministerial director a few weeks agoabout this and a GC Ministerial staff employee about this and they don't gainsay me...they know exactly what I am speaking of.

Oh well???

Now not oh well....oh SICK and pathetic

[Guest]

Bille,

I appreciate your replies...it appears that at least you have done some investigation in these matters.

I will be away from the computer for most of the day..

Do I hear cheers and see fireworks?? from the TYPICAL TOPICAL SERMON DOPERS??

As Mark Finley said to me when we discussed stuff like this..

"I love these type of conversations."

[Nicodema]

Thanks for the Acronym 101 mini-seminar, JB!

MSNCF - I can remember this as MSN (MicroSoft Network) and Cold Fusion. LOL

[darlene]

JimBob7, thanks for the advice on sermon preparation. I do appreciate your stand on Topical Sermons, however, I like Topical Sermons. Yes, there are sermons that are boring or don't have much substance but, I think the Lord speaks to hearts in all sermons. Some may be poorly done but if our heart is open to His voice we will hear what He has to say.

My concern with your stand on Topical Sermons is that you are saying to the Lord, "You sure are doing a lousy job speaking through your pastors." Please be careful. Whether we think it or not, God is still in control of His people and His Church.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Whether we think it or not, God is still in control of His people and His Church.

---

Oh He is?

Is that why He says I stand at the door and knock?

Why doesn't he just kick down the door and walk right in?

[darlene]

God doesn't use force does He? Often that is our problem, not His. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Some may be poorly done but if our heart is open to His voice we will hear what He has to say.

---

Poorly done??

Who is to say..if God can speak through any sermon...even where the preacher gets up and says only..."Be nice"??

This is the issue...

What is powerful, what is competent and what is barely acceptable???

Going over ground again...take a 30 minute sermon where 1 single bible verse is read and the 29 3/4 minutes of the rest of the time is about harping on the TOPIC/point of the sermons with 7 stories, 7 jokes, 7 personal experiences, 7 current event news items....do this as a steady diet 52 weeks a year..with interruptions with non biblical worship service presentations and .......dumg de dumb dumb

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Some may be poorly done but if our heart is open to His voice we will hear what He has to say.

---

Poorly done??

Who is to say..if God can speak through any sermon...even where the preacher gets up and says only..."Be nice"??

This is the issue...

What is powerful, what is competent and what is barely acceptable???

Going over ground again...take a 30 minute sermon where 1 single bible verse is read and the 29 3/4 minutes of the rest of the time is about harping on the TOPIC/point of the sermons with 7 stories, 7 jokes, 7 personal experiences, 7 current event news items....do this as a steady diet 52 weeks a year..with interruptions with non biblical worship service presentations and .......dumg de dumb dumb

---

JimBob could you help me out here? You keep talking MUCH about your local church sermons that you say doesn't quite measure up, tell me in the thread 3ABN, Kay Kuzma... there is a link someone provided to hear pastor Mark Finley and then they posted a few of his words, tell me DOES THIS SERMON MEASURE UP according to you??

Now I posted my reasons why I say he is off into error. If he is not, [and since you are the expert on "good sermons"] you straighten me out so I can apologize to this brother, but if he is wrong, then you should support truth which in this case would be me. It's dangerous to remain in neural on a down hill road.

[darlene]

"...7 stories, 7 jokes, 7 personal experiences, 7

current event news items..."

Isn't the number '7' a perfect number?" Sounds like a 'perfect' sermon to me, JimBob7. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Quote:

---

JimBob could you help me out here? You keep talking MUCH about your local church sermons that you say doesn't quite measure up, tell me in the thread 3ABN, Kay Kuzma... there is a link someone provided to hear pastor Mark Finley and then they posted a few of his words, tell me DOES THIS SERMON MEASURE UP according to you??

Now I posted my reasons why I say he is off into error. If he is not, [and since you are the expert on "good sermons"] you straighten me out so I can apologize to this brother, but if he is wrong, then you should support truth which in this case would be me. It's dangerous to remain in neural on a down hill road.

---

Hey Ed..have you turned out to be a 3ABN junkie and now trying to get me hooked?

ALSO.. the sermon thing is not only a local issue...it is interdenominational.

This non-fat dry milk TYPICAL TOPICAL SERMON plague has been epidemic for centuries.

Hey..I will check Mark's sermon for ya...but I detect a flavor of coersion/force with your post words about remaining neutral..do you sense I need to have my arm twisted?

FYI...I do confront sloppiness and error...however I want you to know that my campaign is not to correct doctrinal error..it is to confront biblical neglect fom the usual accepted homiletics which minimizes scripture exposure.

Please stand by..

[Guest]

darlene,

That is funny...you are soooooooo funny

Here is a goodie for you ..and for others who "like" topical sermons..

Neh 8:8

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

JimBob could you help me out here? You keep talking MUCH about your local church sermons that you say doesn't quite measure up, tell me in the thread 3ABN, Kay Kuzma... there is a link someone provided to hear pastor Mark Finley and then they posted a few of his words, tell me DOES THIS SERMON MEASURE UP according to you??

Now I posted my reasons why I say he is off into error. If he is not, [and since you are the expert on "good sermons"] you straighten me out so I can apologize to this brother, but if he is wrong, then you should support truth which in this case would be me. It's dangerous to remain in neural on a down hill road.

---

Hey Ed..have you turned out to be a 3ABN junkie and now trying to get me hooked?

ALSO.. the sermon thing is not only a local issue...it is interdenominational.

This non-fat dry milk TYPICAL TOPICAL SERMON plague has been epidemic for centuries.

Hey..I will check Mark's sermon for ya...but I detect a flavor of coersion/force with your post words about remaining neutral..do you sense I need to have my arm twisted?

FYI...I do confront sloppiness and error...however I want you to know that my campaign is not to correct doctrinal error..it is to confront biblical neglect fom the usual accepted homiletics which minimizes scripture exposure.

Please stand by..

---

I think bible truth is all that we both are concerned about knowing of those that gave their lives to preserve Gods word for our generation. If Mark F. sermon is truth we should rally behind him, but if it is deception, it needs to be straighten out.

Darline consider looking around on your control modual for a option switch, and turn it off for a season from the giggle box setting.

[Guest]

Ed,

I read the sermon.

I see on the thread about your input about the 7 periods of time issue. Thanks for the specific lesson point on that.

I am aware of the different views since I am a convert and got exposed to more than the SDA institutional input.

I once communicated with Steve Mosley and ticked him off big time. I compared the low bible exposure of IIW to the richer bible exposure of The World of Tomorrow by the WWCOG.

One has to take into account the audience.

IIW is a religious outreach medium for the Hollywood/boob tube crowd and some Christians who are in "Babylon".

Because of this I critique it differently.

I can tell by the content of this specific sermon what the approach is and theme. It is general and subtle in its message. A couple of good points in the sermon..saying no to the status quo and guarding oneself from error.

Both of which you did in your reply on the thread.

I would not use this sermon as a model for what should be shared in the pulpit. The scripture exposure is low.

In church the audience is different compared to what is in TV land.

Church is populated by people who have been taught the fundamentals and are now to be trained to be involved in the work of the ministry....keep unspotted from the world and to be transformed by the renewing of their mind.

This is why there needs to be TEACHING ministries from pulpits ...NOT SERMONIZING...PUKE!!

I would rate the IIW a C+,B-....too much sightseeing worldly fluff..

Of course the rebuttal would be..."We are trying to reach the people where they are at"

The same thing happens in Mission Spotlight...the sightseeing, institutional emphasis is lopsided.

It reminds me of the verse in John's little letters..

"They are of the world..therefore they speak of the world ..and the world heareth them.

[Guest]

Ed,

I see you are mentioning about the inconsistencies of Mark vs Doug.

True they have large exposures...and I can't fault you for confronting about truth.

The sabbath school lesson gets fairly wide exposure and maybe you remember me posting about the lesson on Jonah not squaring with SOP..especially a quote out of the Conflict of the Ages series..which is some high exposure books relatively speaking.

As far as what Mark and Doug present.

How do you feel about damage control? The concept of the 7 periods of time is fairly widespread and acepted(?) in the denomination.

How do you think this issue affects credibility? Confidence in the speakers and leadership..etc?

You are sensitive to this..being a person who does their homework...

In the main scheme of things..is it a biggie from your perspective?

[Guest]

JimBob said this. "How do you feel about damage control? The concept of the 7 periods of time is fairly widespread and acepted(?) in the denomination."

--------------

Yes it is wide spread, but repeated error NEVER becomes truth! I don't care how many text book & SS Quarterlies it is printed in. This erroneous teaching came from the world BEFORE Adventist ever came along!!! Concerning the 7 churches just read AA 585 with you bible open and a prayer on your lips to be led of God and you will discover that these are 7 different "conditions" that God church can fall into at any time. But people in Adventist with financial successes NEVER CHANGE that what they have in print. And I don't use that "never" word with out thinking about it long and hard.

[Guest]

Ok..

JB here with an open/receptive Berean mind..

"The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different periods of the Christian Era. The number 7 indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the history of the world.

Say again??

[Guest]

Quote:

---

Ok..

JB here with an open/receptive Berean mind..

"The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different periods of the Christian Era. The number 7 indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the condition of the church at

different periods in the history of the world.

Say again??

---

JimBob don't run to the bank yet for your deposit, look CLOSER it is not signed! Brother it is staring you in the face these words. "reveal the condition of the church".

Mark Finley & company has told you that those that "left their first love" was the Ephesus PERIOD, and IT [this PERIOD] HAS ENDED 1900 years ago. The bible doesn't teach this deception neither does the SOP. Now don't run off until you use your "open/receptive Berean mind.." on these words that the SOP says Ephesus was the condition in 1902. OK?

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou

hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence

thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or

else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy

candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." [Cf: RH

02-25-02 para. 1] p. 375, Para. 1, [1902MS].

I am instructed to say that these words are applicable to

Seventh-day Adventist churches in their present condition.

[Guest]

Signed?? I don't take checks!

I just looked up what you posted and wondered why you did...that's all.

Is there not multi applications?

All scripture is profitable...I would not limit this period to having one church message applicable and that's it.

I would think that anyone or some in any time period could be labeled with one or several of the churches...

I have no trouble with your thinking.

Your SOP quote supports that.

Bottom line ...people are being taught an incomplete partial message???

So what else is new??? sheesh...

Why do you think I am on the CLERGY's case all of the time?

non fat dry milk TYPICAL TOPICAL SERMONS

[Bille]

Quote:

---

Is there not multi applications?

All scripture is profitable...I would not limit this period to having one church message applicable and that's it.

I would think that anyone or some in any time period could be labeled with one or several of the churches...

I have no trouble with your thinking.

Your SOP quote supports that.

---

Yes, there are multiple applications, and such is the teaching of the mainline SDA church. Now where Ed (or you, if you hold that) gets the idea that the SDA church teaches only the historical interpretation, I simply do not know, but where ever it is, you are simply misinformed as to how the SDA church handles the various timelines and visions in Revelation. So while I have "no trouble with your thinking" that there are indeed such multiple applications, but I certainly do have "trouble with your thinking" when you accuse or imply that the SDA church does not teach this.

Let's take a look at what we teach, starting with some generalities. The main ways of interpreting Revelation are called: 1) The Preterist, which claims that everything in Revelation applied to the time John wrote, and all has already been fulfilled. 2) The Futurist, which claims that everything is still future. And the Historicist, which claims a straight line chronology of interpretation starting with the churches and extending through the seals and trumpets.

The SDA church, while it speaks of using the "Historicist" method of interpretation, actually does not, but rather uses what is called the Recapitulationist-historicist view. (Say or type that three times fast and you will very quickly see why we almost always shorten it to "historicist" in all but the most technical presentations or discussions.)

The Recapitulationist-historicist view differs from the straight Historicist view, in that 1) it sees each vision as "recapitulating" the same time period as the one before it ... that is, that each of the major visions extend from the time of the writer to the second coming of Christ.

As a part of this folding and repetition of time, the Recapitualationist-historicist view also recognizes the truths that are to be found in both the Preterist and the Futurist views, that the whole of Revelation applies to the time in which it was written as well as having meaning for each successive generation throughout history.

That is not to say that it had exactly the same meaning to each generation. Christian scholars down through the ages recognized their place in the time line, and that there were things that would have more complete fulfillment after their time.

Thus Adventists have always taught that the primary interpretation for the churches was to be found in the conditions of the actual churches that John addressed his letters to...and that these conditions continued in the church down through the ages. At the same time, we have seen the predominant condition in the church change with the passing of years so as to reflect in history the same chronology of conditions as the order given by the Revelator.

We have also emphasized that as we grow nearer the end of time, each of these messages have increased significance for the whole church of Christ, not merely 7 denominations. Nor is there any reason to consider that any specific denomination should be identified with any particular church. But individuals may, at different times in their Christian experience, find their condition ... both their positive relationship with Christ as well as the particular sins or problems they face ... reflected in any or many of the seven.

And there is no advantage to belonging to one of the churches over another. No church is saved in its entirety, but the promises for each are given to individuals ... those who overcome.

Quote:

---

Bottom line ...people are being taught an incomplete partial message???

---

That depends on what people, and who they listen to as their teachers. Adventist teachers on all levels from elementary to Seminary teach the multi-layered interpretive model that I have just described. If you or Ed have heard only part of the story, then you need to expand your reference materials. But claiming that what you may have heard is all that the church teaches and denying it while you emphasize some other part that we have taught is certainly also only giving a "partial message" ... and it is also giving the errant message about what it is that our church officially teaches.

If you will visit the HopeTV site, and read the devotional series on the seven churches from the very beginning, you will see that Mark is true to this same system of interpretation/application that I have described above, drawing his present day applications from both the original churches as they existed in John's day and from the historical periods of the church when those conditions were the most prominent characteristic of the church in that era.

[Guest]

As I hear engineers say....."so much for theory"

Now tell me Bille...in all your years in the church....WHAT IS THE UNBALANCED EMPHASIS???

7 CHURCHES...ESPTSPL...

THE "L" WORD IS predominate from the pulpits and teaching...please stand by for my 1st thread post on CA..I know you'll just love it.

[Guest]

THE ADVENTIST "L" WORD

#63064 - Tue Feb 25 2003 08:17 PM

The 7th Day Adventist church goes to considerable effort and expense to preach the gospel in the setting of the 3 angels message, as found in the 14th chapter of Revelation.

Or it might reach people with a scripture rich Daniel seminar that reveals how God is involved in the history of mankind.

A listener could be inspired by the heavy scripture exposure and impressed with the logical biblical presentation. After concluding that they have finally found a church that follows all of the bible they might make a decision to accept Jesus as their lord and savior, be baptized, and join a local congregation/fellowship of 7th Day Adventist Christians.

The new member might experience a new birth or beginning, an experiential cleansing, a fresh start with the peace, enthusiasm, excitement, inspiration that goes with it.

Often is the case where the new member shares his his faith or experience with others.

Then after a certain period of time which can be just a few weeks to a couple of months at the most, the new member hears something else from the pulpit or sabbath school.This bible following, commandment keeping denomination is referred to in the 3rd chapter of revelation.

They are taught that they are part of the church of the last days which is Laodicea. And the longer the member stays with the church the more they hear this;usually as frequent as once a month, if not more often.

Also, it doesn't take too long before the member perceives that many, if not most, members don't share the same enthusiasm or joy as themselves.

They notice that there is less talk or passion for sharing their faith/ outreach .

They also notice after a time that the content of the sermons and sabbath school are lacking the same rich content of scripture as the outreach seminars or original evangelistic meetings.

Could it be that this constant bashing, berating, brow beating, verbally abusive repetition of the message of Laodicea, from the pulpit or class setting, has brainwashed or indoctrinated the listeners and ingendered a defeatest attitude and so they have taken on the identity/label of lazy, lousy, lukewarm Laodicea losers that makes Jesus puke?

Really now,leaders....., are Adventists supposed to consider themselves constantly as just deceived poor, blind, naked, hypocritical churchian snobs?

Here's another angle. If one resigns to the Laodicean label, then why even bother with the overcoming aspect of the message? They will have to endure the verbal assault of the "L" word, hardly ever encouraged to victory over sin.

Well, the denomination's membership is approaching 12 million members. You have heard the saying..."cheaper by the dozen". Will the church get dirt cheap; so poor that it can't even PAY attention to God's word?

Taking this even further, why call anyone out of Babylon? So they can join the ranks of the lazy, lousy, lukewarm Laodicean losers?

Doesn't anyone realize that we are taught and indoctrinated that we are no better than they? Aren't the people who give the loud cry, God's people at the close of probation, or even the ones waiting for translation at the 2nd coming of Jesus all part of the last church which is composed of lukewarm Laodicean losers?

Consider this.... is it possible that Laodicean leadership and the constant use of the "L" word result in Laodicean lay members???

What do they think of their listeners??

Dumb sheep?

Backslidden bums?

Lazy, lousy, lukewarm Laodicean losers?

Crippled , wounded, creeps in a coma?(Hospital for sinners)

Biblical ignoramuses?

Relationally dysfunctional?

Neurotic nincompoops?

Incompetent weekend warriors

Hypocrites

I think that the clergy really don't have what it takes to lead for the most part.

As a people manager...I don't belittle, verbally abuse my staff...

Now let me address the listeners....

Just like a battered spouse will enable their spouse by staying with them through the physical conflict and not leave...

you can negatively enable a pastor to continue insult/verbal abuse on their congregation by doing nothing..

Do all of the members really deserve this?

Do the other people in the group with you not matter?

Some pastors wonder why their flocks don't grow???

They are beating instead of feeding ..and who would feel comfortable inviting anyone to a bash session?

LISTEN CAREFULLY TO THE NEXT FEW SERMONS AND SEE IF YOU DON'T PERCEIVE AN IMPLIED "PUT DOWN" OF THE CONGREGATION.

IT HAPPENS ALMOST EVERY WEEK. THE PASTOR MIGHT USE THE "WE" WORD TO INCLUDE HIMSELF..YET THE SAME APPROACH PREVAILS.

[Guest]

Bille said this. "And there is no advantage to belonging to one of the churches over another. No church is saved in its entirety, but the promises for each are given to individuals ... those who overcome."

------------------

As I read through your understanding of Revelations message, I immediately thought of all those SDA Commentaries that most Adventist have on their shelves. "You can take it this way or that way. Rabbi XYZ believes this, or Rabbi/professor ABC believes this, or if you cannot understand something out right, just say it is dual application"! Complete nonsense, are these books!!! The ONLY one that is worth opening and studying from is 7A.

"The language of the Bible

should be explained according to its obvious meaning unless

a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise,

"If any man will do His will, he shall know of the

doctrine." If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if

there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their

minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels

glad, and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands

upon thousands who are now wandering in error. p.

416, Para. 3, [4SP].

The words above is "shall know of the doctrines", that mean you are to guess at any thing!! Revelation message are simple if a bible students throws away the Revelation Seminar study guides and gets on their knees and ask Heavens assistance.

"The solemn messages that have been given in their order in

the Revelation are to occupy the first place in the minds

of God's people. Nothing else is to be allowed to engross

our attention. p. 302, Para. 1, [8T].

If Hope TV has posted the words as you so stated and I believe they have, then they ALSO need to fire up their shredding machines.

After the "door was opened in heaven" 4:1 [1844] EVERYTHING, all the different messages after that date was/are in the FUTURE. Now there are a few places where heaven needs to talk parenthetically in order to keep the students informed...