CONVERSION

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I'll just pass on this because I really don't care much to get into it.

Awwwww, Red, what's a matter? You 'fraid???

OK. I will just pull out a few questions since it is a slow day around here ...

1n 1947 the University of Arkansas admitted it's first Black student.

Why did it take until 1968 for Southern College to admit it's first Black student?

PS. And thanks for the kind comment of agreement John317. Much appreciated.

[John317]

Robby,

Do you know how Mormons say the Book of Mormon came to be translated? They say that Joseph Smith took the plates written in "reformed Egyptian" into a room, and that while behind a curtain, he dictated to men sitting outside who wrote down Smith's words.

The Book of Mormon contains many chapters of the books of Isaiah and some of the other prophets. They are given word-for-word as the King James Version of 1611 translated them from relatively late Hebrew manuscripts. The translators of the KJV did not understand as much about Hebrew as we know today. So they made some mistakes. Joseph Smith is supposed to have translated from much more ancient manuscripts than those used by the King James translators, yet Joseph Smith's "translation" is precisely the same as the 1611 edition, even in its mistakes.

How does one explain that?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

Since writing the above, I have discovered that I was in error to say that the Book of Mormon quotes the Old Testament prophets precisely word for word. A close comparison reveals that out of 433 verses in the Book of Mormon that quote the Old Testament, 199 quote the verses precisely as they occur in the King James Version, whereas 234 verses do in fact contain some degree of difference.

The Book of Mormon quotes Isaiah 2-14 and 48-54. One example of a difference between the King James and the Book of Mormon occurs in 2 Nephi 12: 16 in its quotation of Isaiah 2: 16. 2 Nephi 12: 16 says, "And upon all the ships of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures." The King James version says, "And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures."

So the Book of Mormon adds the words, "upon all the ships of the sea." What's particularly interesting about this verse is that the Septuagint (the 3rd Century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) reads, "And upon every ship of the sea, and upon every display of fine ships."

The Masoretic [Hebrew] text of the same verse reads, "against all the ships of Tarshish and against all the stately ships." So the Book of Mormon combines the reading of the Greek Septuagint and the Hebrew Masoretic text.

I asked the official Mormon website about this difference, and I was told that it is a proof that Joseph Smith was divinely directed in his translation. The writer said, "We often find differences in Book of Mormon Isaiah texts where modern texts disagree. One verse (2_Ne. 12:16), is not only different but adds a completely new phrase: 'And upon all the ships of the sea.' This non-King James addition agrees with the Greek (Septuagint) version of the Bible, which had not been translated into English in Joseph Smith's day. "

However, in a computer search regarding the English translation of the Septuagint, I found that an English translation of the Septuagint made by Charles Thomson was published in 1808. Therefore, it is at least possible for Joseph Smith to have had access to an English translation of the Septuagint. It would be interesting to know if any copies of that translation had made it to America's shores before 1829. The first edition of the Book of Mormon was printed in 1830.

I find it also interesting that Joseph Smith translated Is. 2: 16 as referring to "pleasant pictures," exactly the same as the King James translators did, even though the Hebrew word does not mean "pictures" but rather, as the Septuagint and Masoretic translations above show, "ships" or "craft" [NASB].

Why did Smith translate the words as "pleasant pictures," exactly the same as the King James translators of 1611 did? Smith claimed that the Urim and Thummim helped him translate the verses correctly. Why then this error, the identical error made about 250 years before? Many such examples could be given, showing that the Urim and Thummim led Smith to have the same mistaken understanding of the Hebrew in 1828-1830 that the King James translators also had in 1611.

These kinds of things have led even some faithful Mormon scholars to the belief that Joseph Smith had opened the King James Version and was merely quoting it instead of freshly translating the book of Isaiah from a 5th Century B.C. text made in the mysterious "Reformed Egyptian." Why these "Reformed Egyptian" plates dating from about 1,700 years before the existence of the late Hebrew manuscripts used by the King James translators would yield exactly the same errors in understanding, I find impossible to explain.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

OK. Since this is not a Black or White topic ... I am moving my Black comments to a thread or their own .....

And since it is not a White on Black issue either ... I will try to resist any White snippets.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I'll just pass on this because I really don't care much to get into it.

Awwwww, Red, what's a matter? You 'fraid???

Individuals and institutions of our church have practiced racism, for sure, but the SDA church has never made racism an official doctrine of the church or claimed that God revealed teachings that support racism. In fact, the exact opposite is true: those racist practices and beliefs held by some (many?) in the church existed despite official doctrines of the church and the writings of Ellen White on race, and also despite the early history of our church when its co-founder, Joseph Bates, was a committed abolitionist, and members were active in the Underground Railroad.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Well ... now that you mention it ... The Church did rally behind Truth ... as in Sojourner Truth.

[John317]

Yes, I've heard some say she was SDA, but I remember reading somewhere that she met for worship with SDA, yet was never actually a member. If we can know for sure, I think it would interesting to find out exactly what her relationship to the church was.

[aldona]

Yes, I've heard some say she was SDA, but I remember reading somewhere that she met for worship with SDA, yet was never actually a member. If we can know for sure, I think it would interesting to find out exactly what her relationship to the church was.

I heard that Sojourner Truth was a Quaker.

aldona

[Dr. Rich]

robby, what I just read was a real mixed up person's yell for help. If you truely are searching for truth then keep searching for it will not come and bite you. Try reading a new book called "THE SPIRIT OF THE CHURCH" by Neufeld and Sterling if you want to get started. It now appears that the evidence found in the bible supports the theory that we all have been duped, but at the very end only the ones that are searching for truth will find it.

Dr. Rich