Faith and works - another view

[Robert]

While I emphasize that we are justified by faith alone that is not the end of the story. By this I do not mean to infer that there's something that I can add to the doctrine of justification by faith.

Here's the way I see it: Because I have accepted Christ and because my faith remains in Him on a daily basis, I am accepted in the Beloved - heaven is mine and I don't need to fret over that fact.

In other words I am accepted in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ, period. I cannot add to His perfect redemption. Hence, as long as my faith remains in Him, I have heaven now and in the judgment! I have the full assurance that heaven is mine through faith in Jesus Christ.

Now what? Is that all? Yes, as far as salvation is concerned, but I would really like to experience a bit more of heaven while I live my remaining years in this world. By that I don't mean a fine house and a bank account full of the green stuff. No, I mean peace with my family...peace with my wife...peace with my co-workers. Yes, it's easier said then done. In fact without Christ all I can do is live for the desires of my flesh (my nature), which always brings unrest.

I like the way Paul brings this truth out in Gal 5:13

"You, my brothers, were called to be free."

By that Paul means free from "under law" - free from the slavery of legalism and salvation by works. He means that "in Christ" I have heaven right now even though I am a mess. God accepts me where I am in my Christian journey.

"But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."

Now Paul's talking about living the good life. In others words just because heaven is yours by faith don't think that you can feed your nature and not reap trouble.

I don't know about you folks, but I personally don't want trouble. So like Paul, I die daily, I pray for God to take control of my nature. I give God permission to crucify its desires.

My problem is I have not fully learned to walk in the Spirit. My surrender is imperfect. That's how I view this tug-of-war between faith and works.

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

The apostle John wanted us to know we have salvation. He wanted us to have assurance. He wrote, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

This is at the end of his epistle so to put it in context we need to read what "these things" refer to.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1:9)

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (2:1)

"hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (2:3)

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake." (2:12)

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (2:15)

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not." (3:1)

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (3:6)

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (3:8,9)

"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." (3:22)

"Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (4:11)

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (4:20)

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (5:2,3)

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (5:5)

The epistle of First John gives clear assurance of salvation. It is also interwoven with a mix of faith and works.

[fccool]

The first guy who I've met and claimed to be Adventist... the first thing he said to me that we aught to wash each other's feet. He asked me if I did that... and I said "um, No...". The second thing he said to me that since the Lord has saved him he has been free from sin and has not sinned . I have asked him again what he meant, as I thought that he did not mean what he said, but he rephrased it in a way that it made clear that he believed that he has not committed a sin since salvation and he believed that we need to be "re-saved" every time we commit sin. In my mind I though, well dude, you just sinned by saying that you have not done so .

It is quite ironic that years down the road God lead me to be an Adventist. But I'm still thinking about that guy, and that church in southern Ohio that he attends. What in the world do they teach that he would be so confused on this subject?

I think you can go so far pulling one verses and avoiding the others that you have such extreme views. On one hand you have salvation purely by faith and there's nothing you can do to be not saved afterwards. On other hand you have salvation only covering past sins and you have to be constantly re-saved if you commit even one sin.

As Robert correctly pointed out in other thread, there were daily offerings that covered the sins of omission. I think that we don't think of it that way today, but Christ serves as both of these. Otherwise we need to be constantly re-saved and re-baptized to have any kind of assurance that Paul is talking about.

[Woody]

Quote:

that church in southern Ohio that he attends

Was that Piqua ?

[Robert]

The epistle of First John gives clear assurance of salvation. It is also interwoven with a mix of faith and works.

This is Traditional Adventism, Shane. You cannot have assurance based on works, period.

[Robert]

As Robert correctly pointed out in other thread, there were daily offerings that covered the sins of omission.

That wasn't me....

Rob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Shane

The epistle of First John gives clear assurance of salvation. It is also interwoven with a mix of faith and works.

This is Traditional Adventism, Shane. You cannot have assurance based on works, period.

Robert ... it may be "traditional" but I hope it is one that will be dead soon. I'm ready to write the Obit.

[Woody]

Quote:

Shane. You cannot have assurance based on works, period.

A word of caution though Robert. We do have assurance that the works of Christ through the life that He has already lived .... IS sufficient enough to answer the curse of the Law. Therefore ... we do have assurance of salvation through HIS works that HE accomplished on this earth.

That is the REAL assurance of salvation.

[Gerr]

Uh, uh. Here we go with the faith/works debate all over again!!!

Dudley Canright, back in the 1870's, use the oar illustration. If you paddle your way to heaven with just one oar, the oar of faith, you'll never get there because all you will be doing is going round in circles. The same thing happens when one tries the same thing with just the one oar of works. What we need is NOT faith + works; we need a faith THAT works. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith alone. It is equally clear that without works, faith has no life, no breath.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

If you paddle your way to heaven

The problem with this is that YOU are doing the paddling. ("If YOU paddle YOUR way to heaven.)

Instead you should let God do the paddling . If we have faith in Him ... HE will use both paddles. And He does the very best with the paddles. When you or I try to use them ... we FAIL.

[fccool]

We have a saying in Russia. Pod lyezachiy kamyen' voda nye tyechyot.

Which loosely translated means, the water won't flow under the stone which sits on the same place.

So, all the ethnic wisdom aside, God works through us... but if we sitting on a couch watching TV... don't expect any spiritual miracles in your life . If you do what you always did, you will get what you always got.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

This is Traditional Adventism, Shane.

No, it is John's first epistle. Of course, if one considers that the Apostle John was an Adventist, I guess we could say that it is traditional Adventism.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

The problem with this is that YOU are doing the paddling.

Not according to Paul.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

[Gerr]

We have a saying in Russia. Pod lyezachiy kamyen' voda nye tyechyot.

Which loosely translated means, the water won't flow under the stone which sits on the same place.

So, all the ethnic wisdom aside, God works through us... but if we sitting on a couch watching TV... don't expect any spiritual miracles in your life . If you do what you always did, you will get what you always got.

I was going to respond to Redwood, but what you said will suffice.

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

This is Traditional Adventism, Shane.

No, it is John's first epistle. Of course, if one considers that the Apostle John was an Adventist, I guess we could say that it is traditional Adventism.

Taken out of context by a Traditional Adventist. There, that sounds much better....

[Dr. Shane]

The only comment I made was that 1 John has a mix of faith and works. I did not even comment on how the "mix" is presented. Please show me where I am mistaken.

[Robert]

You can't really grow in grace if you are depending on that growth to save you. Your motive will always be either fear of punishment or hope of a reward. In other words your motives will be self-centered and legalistic.

So the only way to experience any agape in your life is to be grounded and rooted in God's redemptive love. Unless this has taken place much of what you term works is really nothing more that self-righteous acts.

[Robert]

The only comment I made was that 1 John has a mix of faith and works. I did not even comment on how the "mix" is presented. Please show me where I am mistaken.

What, 20% works and 80% faith? Please, by all means, give me your percentages.

[Nightingale]

The works are the result of the faith. If you have the faith, the works will follow. You cant have real faith without the works following and you cant have the works without the faith. We are not saved because of the works, we are saved by faith, but the works show that we have been and are on a daily basis being saved. Kinda wordy but I hope the meaning is plain.

[Robert]

We are not saved because of the works, we are saved by faith, but the works show that we have been and are on a daily basis being saved.

As long as we have Christ by faith we are saved, period. If not, then please list the works that "show" that I am on the "saved" list.

Actually those who are trying to remain saved are sinning. There motive is self-centered. Fear or hope of a reward for being good is really self-righteousness.

This is how we are raised. When mom and dad whipped you for being bad what motive were they instilling in you? Right, fear of punishment or hope of a reward for "acting" good. So really we are taught early on to be self-righteous.

Agape, on the other hand, has no self-centered motivations in it. So the only way to experience this love in your life is to accept that "in Christ" you have heaven now and in the judgment.

Self-righteousness will condemn believers in the judgment. We must be wearing only the righteousness of Christ, which will be reflected in our lives by genuine acts of agape.

Robert

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

What, 20% works and 80% faith? Please, by all means, give me your percentages.

Let's stay Bible focused. What does John say? Since John himself states the reason he wrote his first epistle is to give us assurance of salvation, it behooves us to study it well.

Paul never states in his epistles that his purpose for writing is to give assurance of salvation, John does state that. Furthermore, Peter states that some of Paul's writings are hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16) If they were hard for the apostle Peter to understand, we certainly need to be careful about building important doctrines on Paul's epistles. We might do better to use Paul's epistles to shed light on doctrines which are built on other portions of Scripture.

So if we are going to talk about faith, works and assurance of salvation, I think 1 John is a much better place to start than any of Paul's epistles.

[Nightingale]

The "genuine acts of agape" are considered "works" by some. You are correct when you say the righteousness of Christ will be reflected in our lives by genuine acts. I think often we are saying the same thing with different words.

[Bravus]

My prediction - this thread will be circular and will run for over 30 pages

[Dr. Shane]

My prediction: I will drop out before page 15.

[LifeHiscost]

The Bible is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith alone.

Gerry

I haven't pursued this thread so this may already have been made clear.

There is no place in the KJV Bible where the word "alone" is found in the same text with the word "faith", except in the text, James 2:17. There it is made clear that faith is dead if it hasn't works.

Then there is also these texts, and there may be others of which I'm not now aware.

"You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes]" James 2:24 AMP

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."James 2:24 NASB

Regards!