Faith and works - another view

[Woody]

I agree with your texts and add ... 1 John 3: 1+2

Not that it matters. Those who believe in works will see what they want. No text will change your mind.You have to study the entire topic not just isolated texts. You have already studied this issue. I am not trying to change your mind. I am simply sharing my understanding of scripture. You will not see the scripture as I do. So, throwing texts back and forth will do no one any good. The bottom line is interpretation. And there we differ.

This is a forum of ideas as Stan would say. I am happy to provide texts ... but when a bunch of texts are tossed back and forth with different interpretations ... people become uninterested. Share your ideas. Proof is in the eye of the beholder. I could bring in all kinds of scripture and Ellen White. But this is not a debating forum ... it is a forum of ideas as Stan tells us. If you are seriously interested ... I can direct you personally to more scripture and Ellen White on this topic.

[LifeHiscost]

No ... they prefer pointing fingers and condemning others .

I find that these people usually have big sins that they need to hide....

And the pot called the kettle black.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

It all comes down to the heart ... not works.

Gotta agreewith that.

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" Hebrews 8:10 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Perhaps you believe in Divorce ... I don't. And I don't think our Lord does either.

Not to change the subject, however,

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives" Matthew 19:8 KJV

Just so will the heart develop hardness when one willingly continues in sinful conduct. And if the course of the life does not change it will lead to permanent separation from the Lord of glory.

"But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear." Isaiah 59:2 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I think we get sealed before the second coming. When Christ leaves the sanctuary we will stand without a Mediator - perfect, sinless, without blemish.

"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Heb 13:5 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Or why did He say to the paralytic: "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." Jn 5:14 NKJ, if He just meant less sinning?

Gerry

There's no doubt, Gerry, that Jesus meant, 'Go and sin not at all.' However, He says that to all of us. And where would we be if our record, without forgiving grace, were to be applied as our hope of salvation?

Now I happen to believe you don't believe our works give us salvation. And I also believe we agree that the works Jesus performs for and in us are the rule and standard for the rewards we receive.

Perhaps we also agree that life is a gift, not a reward, and all the works of men cannot save. However I also believe the works of Christ can save.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them..." Ephesians 2:10,11 KJV

Regards!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gerry...you are being dishonest with the context. You stated that the sin mentioned in Hebrews 10 was linked to the law. This is a untrue! Why lie? Now you are covering your transgression.

How can you divorce sin from the law? If there is no law there is NO sin!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Now you are covering your transgression.

It is always better to repent than to "cover" up. I would agree with that. A word of apology is always the best. We all fail. And it is good to admit when we fail. But, sometimes we do repeatedly let our egos get in the way of apologizes. However ... God will even forgive that repeated offence.

[Gerr]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

What is this willful, persistent sin that Paul speaks of according to the immediate context?

Whatever it is it has to do with receiving "the truth"! What truth? What's the context?

verse 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot , who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him.

What does that mean - "that sanctified him"?

Verse 10: And by that will [by Christ's doing and dying], we have been made holy [sanctified] through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

That's the context!

Hence, the willful sin Paul speaks of is clearly the sin of unbelief!

Now you know the truth and the truth can keep you from being ignorant!

What is truth?

1. His Word is truth, Jn 17:17

2. Jesus is the truth, Jn 14:6

3. His Law is truth, Ps 119:30,43

Hebrews would not be understandable without taking it in the context of the Bible.

And what is unbelief?

Heb 3:19 - "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Heb 4:6 "...did not enter because of disobedience."

So, according to Paul, unbelief = disobedience.

When the Israelites lost faith (unbelief) that Moses was coming back, what did that unbelief lead them to do? Idolatry and sensuality, read it in Exodus.

Unbelief led Achan to covet.

Unbelief led the 2 sons of Aaron to offer strange fire.

That's what unbelief does, it leads to disobedience to God's revealed will.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Now you are covering your transgression.

It is always better to repent than to "cover" up. I would agree with that. A word of apology is always the best. We all fail. And it is good to admit when we fail. But, sometimes we do repeatedly let our egos get in the way of apologizes. However ... God will even forgive that repeated offence.

Apology for what? Stating the truth?

Now, of what good is repentance & apology if by your theology, you continue to choose to willfully and intentionally keep on doing the wrong thing anyway?

Gerry

[Neil D]

Quote:

Maybe the State of Jefferson doesn't require a visa, but my Aunt does and I am staying with her...

Oh. I had heard they do require a Visa Card. I happen to know a security guard at the Rogue Valley Mall. He says that some of those CaLEEforeigners come up thinking they can do without their Visa Card at the Mall. Believe me ... HE quickly and forcefully informs them that they are wrong.

Yeah, the State of Jefferson is so lax in this area...Those people who come up without thier Visa Card, frequenting the mall, are given a free place to stay and room an board. Of course, there are some other things that we require of them....but at least we show them our hospitality....

[Neil D]

Growth is certainly an individual thing. There may be things that I am doing of which I may not be convicted yet as sin but which someone farther along in the Christian journey may no longer be doing.

But when someone like Redwood claims that he will sin, and continually sin willfully and deliberately until Jesus comes, then, no, that is NOT moot in my book. That is a doctrine cooked up in the abyss. It sanctifies sin. It shows a powerless Gospel and a powerless Christ. It makes a liar out of a holy God who would dare declare to the universe that a sinner is holy and righteous before the on-looking universe and yet that same person continues to willfully and deliberately disobey Him?

Sorry. That can never be moot in my book

Gerry

Oh Gerry,

I don't think Redwood is saying what YOU say he is saying...IOWs, you are not hearing what he is truely saying....

I will tell you what I think he is saying...Redwood, correct me if I am mistating something here....

He is discribing the condition of the Christian....A Christian is always, this side of heaven, in a state of sin..His body has sin, his mind has sinful thoughts, he eats and drinks and he is just in a sinful state.

Thank God, God doesn't hold this against us. He counts our deeds as good, thank Jesus. But sometimes we Christians get angry at God, as we grow...Our father/parent dies, and we hold it against God...our baby dies, and it tears us up. We rebel...but we learn from it...God still loves us, and forgives us, and lets us grow and learn...Consider the prodigal....he deliberately left. God was still waiting for him to come to Him. Willful sinning is a learning experience for the Christian....We mature and we grow...and we learn....and most all, some of us learn to be quiet....and not rail against others...and some of us even learn to be kind when we disagree...And that is NOT to say that you or anyone else has been railing or disagreeable or unkind...

Now, I might have mistated what I see is going on...I might have misread both of you and I might be totally off base....but that is what i think i see here...so, I hope that you can see where I am coming from here.

[David Koot]

We mature and we grow...and we learn....and most all, some of us learn to be quiet....and not rail against others...and some of us even learn to be kind when we disagree

See, there IS hope for the Neil. You never know, you jest may be included in the NEXT party!

Dave

[Stan]

Some of the language here, that would include the word 'ignorant' is over the limit.

See rule number 34,548 regarding the use of the word 'ignorant'

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

YES. But of course 'they' will say it is Jesus working through them to keep it. Thus ... at some point they will 'perfectly' keep all of His commands.

Is Jesus too much of a whimpy God to do that?

1] Jesus will not help you to become proud and self-sufficient. So He will not help you save yourself though your works.

2] Jesus can only help when you have lost all confidence in yourself. That's why He established the OC. He never gave the Jews the law as a means of salvation' date=' but rather so that they would give up on their own righteousness and accept Him as their righteousness.

3'] Before you can experience genuine fruit, you must have the assurance of salvation. Until you do that nothing will happen....Yes, you'll produce self-righteousness and call it God's righteousness, but all that's a deception.

4] Once you have the assurance of salvation you begin to actually grow. But many times we try to get ahead of God's leading. We should let the spirit lead. He takes us in steps...one sin at a time...but never to be saved.

5] God doesn't force, therefore the reason Christians under grace aren't perfectly reflecting Him is because their surrender is imperfect. So, we are the whimps not GOd.

[Robert]

I think we get sealed before the second coming. When Christ leaves the sanctuary we will stand without a Mediator - perfect, sinless, without blemish.

What's sealed is our faith. Shane, I feel for you man. You are locked in legalism and eventually you'll give up on Christ and become lost. Get assurance...get it by understanding God's love in Christ Jesus revealed at the cross. Once you understand the gospel and God's love you'll have assurance, but at long as you swim in sea of unbelief you'll get what you get....Let your faith in Him grow...and you too will become sealed. But if you keep this legalistic way of thinking up you'll do exactly what the Jews did.....

[Robert]

Quote:

Gerry...you are being dishonest with the context. You stated that the sin mentioned in Hebrews 10 was linked to the law. This is a untrue! Why lie? Now you are covering your transgression.

How can you divorce sin from the law? If there is no law there is NO sin!!!

Gerry

Just admit you are wrong...that you didn't know what you were talking about! Instead you are covering your sin.

[Robert]

Hebrews would not be understandable without taking it in the context of the Bible.

Gerry the immediate context is found in Hebrews chapter 10. Please don't force it to say what it does not. That's being dishonest, which is sin!

[Gerr]

Please go back over the thread and read for yourself what exactly it is that he said. If you can't find it, I will point them out to you.

Gerry

[Robert]

Gerry,

I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

To all,

here's something the Jack wrote back in 1993:

I'm going to begin with a document that has done a very great favor to our church, Value-Genesis, because that doc has brought out in the open something that we should have been wrestling with for years, and that doc has proven scientifically that 70% of our people have no assurance of salvation. And number two, 83% of our young people believe that they will be accepted by God by their conduct.

If a Christian does not have the assurance of salvation it affects that believer 3 ways:

1] Witnessing becomes non-existent. I'll tell you why; it's a law of the human mind. You will not witness something that you are not sure about yourself. Unless of course there is an ulterior motive....You may witness because you want a star in your crown.

2] If you don't have assurance of salvation all your Christian living you do will always be motivated by egocentric concerns, because you want to please God and get to heaven. You see when our children bring things to us like flowers, by their very nature they want to be accepted by their parents. You can't blame them because that's all that they can do. The kids bring cookies to their teacher. The thing is this, only when we have assurance of salvation can we practice the Christian life with a heart that is full of appreciation.

3] If you don't have assurance of salvation, you will never be able to withstand the crisis when it comes. The Marxist revolution in Ethiopia opened my eyes to that. Do you know that the kids who were the most willing to die for Christ in the Marxist revolution? It wasn't our children - it was the Pentecostals. Their theology may be wrong, but they had one thing our children did not have - they had assurance of salvation, and so they were willing to die.

[Gerr]

Quote:

3] Before you can experience genuine fruit, you must have the assurance of salvation. Until you do that nothing will happen....Yes, you'll produce self-righteousness and call it God's righteousness, but all that's a deception.

4] Once you have the assurance of salvation you begin to actually grow. But many times we try to get ahead of God's leading. We should let the spirit lead. He takes us in steps...one sin at a time...but never to be saved.

I have surrendered my life to God, pledged my loyalty and allegiance, repented of all my evil deeds and have asked for forgiveness. Having done this, do I have assurance or not?

If I do any good thing, is this just self-deception?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Two worshipers went to the temple to pray. The Pharisee had supreme assurance of his standing with God. Was he growing?

The poor publican had nothing but self-loathing, but he was repentant, and Jesus declared him justified. Did he experience growth?

You ask any Baptist you meet if they have assurance of salvation, and 9 out 10 if not 10/10 will tell you they do. Do they all have the growth you are speaking of? I doubt it.

Assurance comes from knowing God and claiming His promises. But there will be a lot of people who claim to know God and claim assurance of salvation who will receive the words, "I don't know you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." That could even be me. That's why I take heed when Paul said, "Therefore let him who who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:12 NKJ. When I concentrate on knowing Jesus, I don't have to worry about assurance.

Gerry

[Robert]

You ask any Baptist you meet if they have assurance of salvation, and 9 out 10 if not 10/10 will tell you they do. Do they all have the growth you are speaking of? I doubt it.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Can you find me someone who believes they are saved by keeping the law?

There are some groups or denominations that believe and teach that we are saved by keeping commandments and law or rules, but I don't believe anyone in CA is saying we are saved by law-keeping. Our works of faith simply demonstrate whether our faith is dead or alive, whether it's genuine or false. As Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments, just as I kept my Father's commandments."

One might compare it with our life in a marriage relationship. If we love our spouses we will show it. One way of showing our love is by remaining faithful. The same applies to our faithfulness or loyalty to God. It's not a question of earning "marriage" with our spouse by obeying certain laws or rules. Rather we do certain things because we are married and out of love.

What will happen, though, if we practice unfaithfulness and disloyalty? We will not be married. And what will happen to Christians who continue to practice unfaithfulness and disloyalty to God? If they don't repent and allow God to change their heart and their life, they will ultimately be found outside the bride of Christ.

If that sounds to someone like salvation by law-keeping, all I can say is that they're not listening to or grasping some basic teachings of the Bible.

Precisely,

Let he that has an ear hear.

olger

[LifeHiscost]

. But if you keep this legalistic way of thinking up you'll do exactly what the Jews did.....

"And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

Acts 6:7 KJV

Regards!