Faith and works - another view

[Woody]

Quote:

When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience

Strange isn't it ... that NONE of us "know" God as we should and as is our privilege.

But yet ... this SHOULD be our focus. We need to get to know God and abide in him rather than having our focus on doing good works.

[LifeHiscost]

You can't really grow in grace if you are depending on that growth to save you. Your motive will always be either fear of punishment or hope of a reward. In other words your motives will be self-centered and legalistic.

So the only way to experience any agape in your life is to be grounded and rooted in God's redemptive love. Unless this has taken place much of what you term works is really nothing more that self-righteous acts.

"Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. [1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man ..."

You have a gift, Robert. The question is, who would be interested enough to give you that gift?

Regards!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You can't really grow in grace if you are depending on that growth to save you. Your motive will always be either fear of punishment or hope of a reward. In other words your motives will be self-centered and legalistic.

So the only way to experience any agape in your life is to be grounded and rooted in God's redemptive love. Unless this has taken place much of what you term works is really nothing more that self-righteous acts.

"Straw man"

Whenever we use selfish motives — like fear of the judgment or desire for reward — to get our people to do good works, we are no different than any pagan or non-Christian religion. The principle of self belongs to Satan and this evil world. That is why all man-made religions are based on salvation by works. God’s ways are the very opposite [read Isa. 55:8, 9].

The principle of self was introduced by Lucifer when he became Satan and which he infected the human race with at the Fall [read Isa. 53:6; Phil. 2:21]. In contrast, God’s kingdom is established on the principle of selfless agape love. This selfless unconditional love is the bases of our salvation as well as Christian living [read Matt. 5:43-48; 1 Cor. 13:1-5.]

God’s love has no self in it: it seeketh not its own. When we appeal to man’s selfish nature in trying to get our people to keep the law or do good works, no matter how sincere or good our intentions are, we are actually upholding Satan’s kingdom and contradicting the true gospel motivation to live the Christians life [read 2 Cor. 5:14, 15; Jn. 13:34, 35.] [JS]

[Gerr]

I've been waiting for the "different view" about faith and works. Sorry. Same old, same old.

Gerry

[Robert]

I've been waiting for the "different view" about faith and works. Sorry. Same old, same old.

Gerry

What Jack is saying is that if you do not have the assurance of salvation your works will always be self-righteous. If you truly want fruit in harmony with the law you must accept that "in Christ" you are fully qualified for heaven now and in the judgment. If you reject this you reject heaven!

[Dr. Shane]

I find the Apostle John's view fascinating.

[Robert]

More Jack:

...victory over sin or holiness of living does not contribute one iota towards my justification or towards my ticket to heaven. We stand complete, we stand perfect only in Jesus Christ. That is the basis of our assurance of salvation. We must never look at ourselves or our experience or our victory through the power of the Holy Spirit for our assurance of salvation. Because even though the Holy Spirit gives us victory, we will never know it fully.

....Our part from beginning to end is faith and this is our battle. Paul, at the end of his life, told Timothy, “I have fought the good fight of faith.” That is the battle that you and I have to fight

[Woody]

This is at the center of the Gospel. Thanks Robert. It is SO Biblical. But I like the way he words it. Good Stuff that we all should fully believe and apply to our lives.

[Robert]

I find the Apostle John's view fascinating.

Such as, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." [1 John 1:8]

The rest of John's statements must be within this context! In other words anything we experience in holy living does not reach the highest demands of God's agape love. Therefore our assurance must be in what Christ did some 2000 in our humanity. In fact that's the only way to grow in grace.

[Dr. Shane]

It is profound.

1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Let's put a mental note there. Look at the bold print. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. (all not some)

1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Wait a minute... In verse seven we are cleansed from ALL sin and now in verse 8 we decieve ourselves if we say we have no sin. Where is the context?

1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

OK, does that make sense? Can we grasp what John is saying or does Jack need to explain it to us?

1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So we have all sinned. If we deny that the truth is not in us. BUT if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness. What does that mean? Why is John writing this stuff?

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Is 2:1 a summery of 1:8-10?

2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This epistle holds the key to the assurance of our salvation!

5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Robert]

1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, which is it? Are we righteous - cleansed from ALL unrighteousness in our experience - or are we righteous "in Christ" because we confess that we are sinners?

Are you a sinner now, Shane, in your experience or are you Holy? If this righteousness applies to your experience then you can say that you are without sin! That causes problems with verse 8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

The moment you claim to be without sin in your experience you become deceived. You are only righteous "in Christ". Hence that's where your assurance better be!

[Robert]

Quote:

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

What "sin" [singular] is John referring too? "I write this to you so that you will not [become self-righteous - see 1 John 1:8]."

We all do it from time to time. Some live in a state of self-righteousness. Those individuals are in danger of renouncing Christ.

[Gerr]

More Jack:

...victory over sin or holiness of living does not contribute one iota towards my justification or towards my ticket to heaven. We stand complete, we stand perfect only in Jesus Christ. That is the basis of our assurance of salvation. We must never look at ourselves or our experience or our victory through the power of the Holy Spirit for our assurance of salvation. Because even though the Holy Spirit gives us victory, we will never know it fully.

....Our part from beginning to end is faith and this is our battle. Paul, at the end of his life, told Timothy, “I have fought the good fight of faith.” That is the battle that you and I have to fight

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." Jn 6:53 NKJ.

Now, if I claim to be eating His flesh and drinking His blood but remain spiritually decrepit, a spiritual paralytic, what does that say about my claim?

"To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are complete in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become partakers of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our being. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace, must be assimilated." DA 389

That part you quoted of Jack I believe 1000%!!! But believers who have a living faith in Christ, who feed on His flesh and drink His blood, will show it in their lives. The righteous shall eat by faith, love by faith, witness by faith, pay their tithe by faith, share their wealth by faith, and yes, work by faith. But you negate all that by saying that all these fruits of faith is selfishness, self-righteouness!!! What you are doing is putting the believer in a no win situation!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Are you a sinner now, Shane, in your experience or are you Holy? If this righteousness applies to your experience then you can say that you are without sin!

For those of you who feel you keep all the commands of God and are thus 'Holy' ... you can add your name to the list on the 'Perfect obedience' thread.

[Robert]

What you are doing is putting the believer in a no win situation!!!

No, the law does that....

[olger]

Some people contrast the Old Covenant with the New as if the Old had law and the New doesn't. Not so.

According to Jeremiah, a distinguishing feature of the New Covenant was the writing of the Law upon the heart of man. This turns the Law from an accusing finger into a hand upon the shoulder. Same law.

It is our relationship to it that has changed.

regards,

OG

[Dr. Shane]

One might note that I have been asking questions in this tread - not making sweeping statements.

Quote:

So, which is it? Are we righteous - cleansed from ALL unrighteousness in our experience - or are we righteous "in Christ" because we confess that we are sinners?

What does the passage say? "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

What sin is verse 8 speaking about? What light do the surrounding verses shed on it?

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (verse 10)

Do the words "have not" imply past sin?

In verse 8 we see John saying that we all have sin. In both verse 7 and verse 9 John says that Christ cleanses us from sin. So if we are cleansed from sin, do we have sin or not? Does verse 10 then come along and imply our sin is in the past?

Finally in chapter 2 verse 1 does John summarize chapter 1? "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

What "sin" is John speaking about in 2:1? Doesn't John clarify that for us in 3:4? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Doesn't the key to having assurance of salvation lie in understanding the first epistle of John? "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

[olger]

Shane, you're being too logical. Quit it.

I find righteousness by disobedience to be just as useless as righteousness by obedience.

oG

[Robert]

Doesn't the key to having assurance of salvation lie in understanding the first epistle of John?

So Shane, are you suggesting that John teaches assurance of salvation by one's behavior?

[Robert]

In verse 8 we see John saying that we all have sin.

That is, we are still sinful even after conversion. As Paul states, "All have sinned (there's your past tense) and fall short (there's your present continuous tense) of the glory of God (His glory being His agape love)."

Anyway you cut it you are a sinner and ultimately it is Christ's righteousness that will give you an entrance into heaven. So, we are back to square one - our assurance can't be in our works of faith.

Yes, I agree that there will be fruit. Abraham and Rahab are a perfect example. But you must remember that Abraham already stood justified by faith many years before his faith matured and he was willing to offer up Issac.

James 2:1 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Notice his faith was made complete. That means that Abraham's faith had become unshakable! We all need the maturity of faith.

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

So Shane, are you suggesting that John teaches assurance of salvation by one's behavior?

No, I am suggesting the key to having assurance of salvation has more to do with understanding John than Paul. Peter tells us that Paul is hard to understand. If the Apostle Peter had a hard time understanding Paul, I am certainly not going to base my beliefs in salvation on any of Paul's epistles. I do not think I have a better mind or better understanding of salvation than the Apostle Peter did.

[Woody]

Quote:

That is, we are still sinful even after conversion. As Paul states, "All have sinned (there's your past tense) and fall short (there's your present continuous tense) of the glory of God (His glory being His agape love)."

Anyway you cut it you are a sinner and ultimately it is Christ's righteousness that will give you an entrance into heaven. So, we are back to square one - our assurance can't be in our works of faith.

Yes, I agree that there will be fruit. Abraham and Rahab are a perfect example. But you must remember that Abraham already stood justified by faith many years before his faith matured and he was willing to offer up Issac.

James 2:1 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Notice his faith was made complete. That means that Abraham's faith had become unshakable! We all need the maturity of faith.

Rob

[Robert]

What does the passage say? "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

You are forcing John to say we are cleansed from "all" unrighteousness and hence sinless. If you have no "unrighteousness" you are by definition sinless. If you claim to be without sin then you are deceived.

[Robert]

Quote:

So Shane, are you suggesting that John teaches assurance of salvation by one's behavior?

No, I am suggesting the key to having assurance of salvation has more to do with understanding John than Paul. Peter tells us that Paul is hard to understand. If the Apostle Peter had a hard time understanding Paul, I am certainly not going to base my beliefs in salvation on any of Paul's epistles. I do not think I have a better mind or better understanding of salvation than the Apostle Peter did.

Paul takes up 53% of the NT. He is the man! Adventists can't understand Paul because they tend towards legalism. Get down Romans and Galatians and you'll see things differently.

[Robert]

Quote:

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul's message on the gospel is not hard to understand. Peter most likely had in mind other statements such as found in 1 Tim 2:15: "Women shall be saved through the bearing of children", etc....But on the gospel Paul is very clear. In fact he is more clear than the other writers.

Rob