Faith and works - another view

[Gerr]

Do you have sin in your life Gerry ?

If so .... IF you have any sin in your life .... are you a slave to sin? If you say you are without sin ... then the truth is not in you. So, I ask you again ... are you a slave to sin or not?

"No man can serve 2 masters." Jesus

I have declared Jesus to be not only my Savior but my LORD as well. So sin is no longer my lord and master. When sin tells me, "cheat on your wife." Or, "don't pay an honest tithe, you need it." Or, "invent some deduction so you won't have to pay so much tax." Or a thousand other unlawful things.

God's WORD says: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, UPRIGHT AND GODLY LIVES IN THIS PRESENT AGE, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to REDEEM us from ALL WICKEDNESS and to PURIFY for himself a people that are his very own, EAGER TO DO WHAT IS GOOD." Titus 2:11-14 NIV

That's what the Good News does, it gives the believer the power to say, "NO" to sin. It gave Joseph the power to say, "How can I do this great wickedness and sin against God?" when his master's wife urged him to sleep with her. If the Good News cannot do that to a believer, then it is nothing but hot air!

Gerry

[Woody]

The Good News has the power NO DOUBT. But the question IS .... Are you without sin? The power IS there. But do you always accept that power? IOW are you without sin now that you have the power available?

Granted you have made HIM Lord of your life. But does that mean you are without sin?

[Woody]

Quote:

Maybe the State of Jefferson doesn't require a visa, but my Aunt does and I am staying with her...

Oh. I had heard they do require a Visa Card. I happen to know a security guard at the Rogue Valley Mall. He says that some of those CaLEEforeigners come up thinking they can do without their Visa Card at the Mall. Believe me ... HE quickly and forcefully informs them that they are wrong.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Perhaps you believe in Divorce ... I don't. And I don't think our Lord does either.

You're not listening, Redwood.

Of course God hates divorce. And he will hate rejecting people from His kingdom, but he will do it, won't he?

If you come to Him ... He will in no wise cast you out.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Gerry said-

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Which "sin" are you talking about, Gerry? Willful sinfulness? or inherted sinfulness? Or is it ignorant sinfulness? Yes, one sets up the other [and hopefully, you know which one I am talking about]...Which is Paul talking about in this passage? All of them?

Study what Paul had to say. My understanding of what He is saying is not about some specific sinful act, but rather sin as a way of life. He is talking about about sin as a master. Does a believer remain a slave to sin as a way of life? Read what Paul says for yourself in Rom 6. His answer is clearly no.

Gerry

I just popped back in to see what has happen in the few minutes that I have been gone and saw this...and had to reply to it...

Gerry, you said "My understanding of what He is saying is not about some specific sinful act, but rather sin as a way of life. ...

What you are implying is that a person is committed to sinning, but not commited to Christ. Therefore, that person is not a Christian, by definition.

A Christian is one who follows Christ, a disciple, a follower of His rules...And as such, A Christian is allowed grow...Paul talks about 'leaving those things that were in the past and moving foward toward Christ" or something like that. There are other texts about growing in Christ as well...Now, some people may think that what one Christian does is wrong...others may not...but the judgement is left to the individual and his relationship with Christ. "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"...These are things to be worked out between the Christian and Jesus...NOT the prying eyes of the gossipers and such.

Therefore, your arguement about "sin being a way of life" is moot for those who are Christians and can only be applied to those who are non-Christians and even then, you cant say a whole lot about that either for offending them against Christ.... So, IMHO, the arguement is moot.

Sorry...

Growth is certainly an individual thing. There may be things that I am doing of which I may not be convicted yet as sin but which someone farther along in the Christian journey may no longer be doing.

But when someone like Redwood claims that he will sin, and continually sin willfully and deliberately until Jesus comes, then, no, that is NOT moot in my book. That is a doctrine cooked up in the abyss. It sanctifies sin. It shows a powerless Gospel and a powerless Christ. It makes a liar out of a holy God who would dare declare to the universe that a sinner is holy and righteous before the on-looking universe and yet that same person continues to willfully and deliberately disobey Him?

Sorry. That can never be moot in my book

Gerry

[John317]

The Good News has the power NO DOUBT. But the question IS .... Are you without sin? The power IS there. But do you always accept that power? IOW are you without sin now that you have the power available?

Granted you have made HIM Lord of your life. But does that mean you are without sin?

Of course we are not "without sin" in the sense in which the Apostle John makes that statement. God is not looking for humans who are "without sin." He knows we are sinful. He knows we are fallen and that we have fallen natures. The question is, does our life show that we love Christ? Christ Himself said, "If you love me, you will keep My commandments, just as I have kept my Father's commandments."

Or does our life show that we practice deliberate and willful disobedience and disloyalty?

Why would anyone practice willfully and intentionally hurting their spouse? Why would anyone do the same against Christ and God?

You give me the impression that you have sin(s) in your life that you either don't want to give up or that you cannot give up. What is a favorite sin that you feel you must hold on to and cannot let go of? (I'm not asking you to answer this-- just want you to think about it.) If this is the case, that sin that we refuse to give up or cannot give up becomes our god. That is, we love that sin more than we love God, if we refuse to surrender it.

[Woody]

Quote:

But when someone like Redwood claims that he will sin, and continually sin willfully and deliberately until Jesus comes, then, no, that is NOT moot in my book. That is a doctrine cooked up in the abyss. It sanctifies sin. It shows a powerless Gospel and a powerless Christ. It makes a liar out of a holy God who would dare declare to the universe that a sinner is holy and righteous before the on-looking universe and yet that same person continues to willfully and deliberately disobey Him?

Gerry ... chuckle chuckle .... you have fun making me the villain. You love misrepresenting my views. You have no desire to know or acknowledge my views. So, go for it. Have you fun. I will just laugh at your legalism. At some point those who love legalism ... get so discouraged that they throw it all out. I have seen those like you over the years ... do just that.

But by all means ... Have you fun.

[Gerr]

The Good News has the power NO DOUBT. But the question IS .... Are you without sin? The power IS there. But do you always accept that power? IOW are you without sin now that you have the power available?

Granted you have made HIM Lord of your life. But does that mean you are without sin?

I have never claimed to be without sin. I have repeatedly claimed that a genuine believer will no longer continually, willfully, intentionally, and deliberately violate the will of God. I have repeatedly shown from Scripture the difference between intentional/deliberate/willful sin from inadvertent sinning, but you either don't believe what the Bible says or just plain refuse to listen to what Scripture say, believing instead that it is something I twisted.

"If we deliberely keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26,27 NIV

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

But when someone like Redwood claims that he will sin, and continually sin willfully and deliberately until Jesus comes, then, no, that is NOT moot in my book. That is a doctrine cooked up in the abyss. It sanctifies sin. It shows a powerless Gospel and a powerless Christ. It makes a liar out of a holy God who would dare declare to the universe that a sinner is holy and righteous before the on-looking universe and yet that same person continues to willfully and deliberately disobey Him?

Gerry ... chuckle chuckle .... you have fun making me the villain. You love misrepresenting my views.

Are you denying the fact that you have flatly stated that you have a choice, and that you chose to sin and sin willfully until Jesus comes?

Quote:

You have no desire to know or acknowledge my views.

You have not been bashful about stating your views. They are well known in this forum.

Quote:

So, go for it. Have you fun. I will just laugh at your legalism. At some point those who love legalism ... get so discouraged that they throw it all out. I have seen those like you over the years ... do just that.

If you think that turning the truth into a lie is a laughing matter, then friend, you are sadly mistaken. I wouldn't waste my time responding to some of your most outrageous statements if they were not so anti-gospel.

Gerry

[John317]

Are you denying the fact that you have stated several times that you continue to sin and sin willfully until Jesus comes?[/color}

Gerry

Yes, he has, and many times.

But why would anyone practice willfully and intentionally hurting their spouse? Why would anyone do the same against Christ and God?

Redwood gives me the impression that he has sin(s) in his life that he either doesn't want to give up or that he cannot give up. What is a favorite sin that he feels he must hold on to and cannot let go of? (I'm not asking him to answer this-- just want him to think about it.) If this is the case, that sin that we refuse to give up or cannot give up becomes our god. That is, we love that sin more than we love God, if we refuse to surrender it.

[Woody]

Gerry ... what you don't get is that ALL sin is willful. We have the power to know God and to resist sin. IF you have sin in your life it is 'willful'. For all power needed to be sinless is available to each one of us.

I sin. I choose sin. I have the choice to accept the power to not sin. But at times I choose sin over the power available to me. I will continue to choose sin till the day I die. That is what Grace is for.We come to God and say ..."I rejected your power God ... please forgive me." That grace covers me when I don't avail myself of His power.

My God forgives me when I don't accept His power. I am sorry to hear that your's doesn't.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you denying the fact that you have stated several times that you continue to sin and sin willfully until Jesus comes?[/color}

Gerry

Yes, he has, and many times.

But why would anyone practice willfully and intentionally hurting their spouse? Why would anyone do the same against Christ and God?

Redwood gives me the impression that he has sin(s) in his life that he either doesn't want to give up or that he cannot give up. What is a favorite sin that he feels he must hold on to and cannot let go of? (I'm not asking him to answer this-- just want him to think about it.) If this is the case, that sin that we refuse to give up or cannot give up becomes our god. That is, we love that sin more than we love God, if we refuse to surrender it.

My sin is that I hate legalism. If you read the thread when I first came ... you would know that I have few sins in my life. I live a conservative lifestyle. My sin is hating the way sinners are looked at. I have seen many who don't have the lifestyle that I have ... looked down on. We are ALL sinners. We ALL fail. We do not love our neighbors as ourselves. We have pride. We are ALL self centered. We all fail to measure up to what we should be.

But I refuse to have anyone point to my fellow man and say you have to be without willful sin. We all will sin. If you say you are without willful sin ... then the truth is not in you. The power to not sin is available to each of us. You and I choose to not accept that at times.

However ... Christ died that we might live. He accepts us even though we don't always measure up.

I realize that this message will not get through to conservatives. All they think of is work work work. Those who willfully sin and don't accept the power available ... they are condemned. Well Christ came not to condemn but to save. I for one will accept His salvation in my life. And He in turn will accept whatever amount of works I do in return. Whatever amount of power that I accept ... HE accepts.

If you don't think you have sins to overcome in your life ... then you are not of Christ. WE all have sins to overcome. And we will until the day we die.

[John317]

I sin. I choose sin. I have the choice to accept the power to not sin. But at times I choose sin over the power available to me. I will continue to choose sin till the day I die. That is what Grace is for.We come to God and say ..."I rejected your power God ... please forgive me." That grace covers me when I don't avail myself of His power.

My God forgives me when I don't accept His power. I am sorry to hear that your's doesn't.

It's not a question of whether God is willing to forgive sin when we repent and ask for forgiveness. The problem is that when we continue to choose sin, it changes us. Choosing sin has the effect on our relationship with Him like the effect of continual unfaithfulness to one's spouse. Willful, continual sins might be compared to a callous. We become spiritually less sensitive, less able to hear the Spirit, less sensitive to God's leading and to His voice. We can come to the place where we no longer hate sin or consider it as a bad thing. I really fear for you along this line. You sometimes seem to take sin lightly, as if it's not a big deal. It must be a big deal, though, or God would not have sacrificed so much in order to get rid of it.

[Woody]

Quote:

That is, we love that sin more than we love God, if we refuse to surrender it.

Some of us DO have sins we don't have vicotry over. In fact ... we all do. We all fall short. But this does not in any way put us outside of Christ and His salvation if we love Him and accept His sacrifice on our behalf.

This idea is pure legalism that we have to gain victory over all sins or we love the sin more than Christ. NO THANKS.

[John317]

Quote:

That is, we love that sin more than we love God, if we refuse to surrender it.

Some of us DO have sins we don't have vicotry over. In fact ... we all do. We all fall short.

OK, I agree with that. But don't you see there's a huge difference between sins that we are sincerely dealing with and letting God deal with, and sins that we intend to commit and keep committing? Sins that we don't want to stop? Sins that we say we will not accept God's power to overcome?

For instance, David committed a big sin, killing a man's wife so he could have her as his own. But he repented of it and did not keep doing it. What do you believe would have happened if David had told Nathan, "You know, you're right. I did kill that guy and take his wife. And I plan to keep doing it, and often, and I have no intention of stopping. I plan on doing it until the day I die. God will just have to forgive me for it. I am sure glad that God is gracious and forgives me for these things."?

[Gerr]

Gerry ... what you don't get is that ALL sin is willful. We have the power to know God and to resist sin. IF you have sin in your life it is 'willful'. For all power needed to be sinless is available to each one of us.

If God looks at all sin as willful, intentional, and deliberate, even inadvertent and unintentional ones, then even our fallen human courts are more righteous than God. Than can never be! "Indeed, let God be true but everyt man a liar." Rom 3:4 NKJ. Even human courts recognize the difference between premeditated murder from aggravated homicide.

Do you even bother to read the Scriptures that are quoted/posted for fear they might contradict your doctrines?

"If you sin UNINTENTIONALLY, and do not observe all these commandments which the LORD has spoken to Moses....then it will be, if it is UNINTENTIONALLY commited, WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young full as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the LORD...." Nu 15:22-24 NKJ

"But the person who does anything PRESUMPTUOUSLY [sins on purpose - NCV, brazenly violate the law - NLT, sins defiantly - NIV, NASB, sins deliberately - GNT], Whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach to the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him." Nu 15:30-31 NKJ.

Quote:

I sin. I choose sin. I have the choice to accept the power to not sin. But at times I choose sin over the power available to me. I will continue to choose sin till the day I die. That is what Grace is for.We come to God and say ..."I rejected your power God ... please forgive me." That grace covers me when I don't avail myself of His power.

Since you acknowledge saying it, what view or views that you have that I have misrepresented?

Quote:

My God forgives me when I don't accept His power. I am sorry to hear that your's doesn't.

While my God is a very forgiving God, He has also flatly and explicitly stated that:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning [continuous, present tense] after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26,27. NIV

Gerry

[Stan]

Have never seen a thread like this on this forum before... wonder if anyone else ever has?

[David Koot]

Well, Stan, although I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I am concerned about the rules being followed, for the good and protection of all of us. So far, looking at recent posts here, they seem to have been violated repeatedly. If the rules are to be effective, then it seems they should be followed and enforced wherever a problem occurs.

Dave

[Gerr]

Well, Stan, although I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I am concerned about the rules being followed, for the good and protection of all of us. So far, looking at recent posts here, they seem to have been violated repeatedly. If the rules are to be effective, then it seems they should be followed and enforced wherever a problem occurs.

Dave

Please show what rules have been violated so that I can refrain from deliberately doing so.

Gerry

[Woody]

The heart issue Gerry and John. It comes down to the heart. And that is something that you and I can not judge by looking at our brothers works. It all comes down to the heart ... not works.

[David Koot]

Gerry, take a look at the rules Amelia posted at the top of the Townhall section.

[Woody]

Well, Stan, although I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I am concerned about the rules being followed, for the good and protection of all of us. So far, looking at recent posts here, they seem to have been violated repeatedly. If the rules are to be effective, then it seems they should be followed and enforced wherever a problem occurs.

Dave

Dave ... the word I hear from Stan is that we can't force any one to behave. Right Stan? Seems like I just recently heard that.

But you are right Dave. Rules without teeth are just as good as no rules.

[Nightingale]

"By repentance toward God and faith in Christ the fallen children of Adam might once more become "sons of God."

PP pg 64.

It is only through true repentance which consists of remorse and anguish for our sins that there is forgiveness. How can we have true repentance and choose to continue to willfully sin?

We all fall, but there is a vast difference in falling and repenting and planning to fall.

God has the power to give us the victory over our sins, but we must ask and often plead on our knees for that victory.

Maybe we enjoy our sins to much?

[Woody]

Quote:

Maybe we enjoy our sins to much?

That we do. For there is NO excuse for sin. We have at our disposal ... all the power of heaven. This power is both available to know and understand God FULLY ... and also to FULLY obey.

If we sin ... it is because we have willfully chosen to not fully know Him and accept His power in our lives as we should.

[Planey]

No, if you come off with legalism I will give you law and condemnation! Why? Because I am only repeating Paul and he has authority:

Leave it to Paul. He does not need your endorsement.

Graeme