Faith and works - another view

[John317]

The heart issue Gerry and John. It comes down to the heart. And that is something that you and I can not judge by looking at our brothers works. It all comes down to the heart ... not works.

Yes, it does come down to the heart. And what is in the heart, Jesus said, will come out in the life, in the actions and in the words.

If I say, "I am going to continue living in sin and I have no intention of obeying God but will keep on willfully and deliberately sinning, doing those things I know are wrong," then we are not talking about the necessity of reading anyone's heart. If I say that, the Bible teaches that I am in the wrong.

It would be the same if I said, "I know the truth but am not planning to obey it or accept it. I know God doesn't want me doing such and such, but I plan to do those things anyway."

That's different from honestly and sincerely saying, "I know the truth and am asking God to help me to obey Him and to overcome my sin and bad habits."

One is high-handed rebellion and the other is submission to God. Do you see the difference?

[Woody]

Quote:

We all fall, but there is a vast difference in falling and repenting and planning to fall.

This is a good one. Never in all my days have I heard of someone planning to fall. So, I am not sure who you are referring to. But I do know that we all willfully choose sin over God all the time. And we will continue to make that wrong decision until the day we die.

The Good News is that we have a loving forgiving God who has made provision for us. Even though we fail ... HE will forgive. Praise God for His loving kindness towards us sinners. Yes, we are sinners but we are not outside His love and forgiveness.

[John317]

Quote:

We all fall, but there is a vast difference in falling and repenting and planning to fall.

This is a good one. Never in all my days have I heard of someone planning to fall. So, I am not sure who you are referring to. But I do know that we all willfully choose sin over God all the time. And we will continue to make that wrong decision until the day we die.

The Good News is that we have a loving forgiving God who has made provision for us. Even though we fail ... HE will forgive. Praise God for His loving kindness towards us sinners. Yes, we are sinners but we are not outside His love and forgiveness.

Nightingale is referring to you, Red. You have said over and over again that you plan to keep committing sin and have no intention of stopping. That is planning to fall into sin. If it is not, what is it?

For instance, if I say, "I know I shouldn't do it, but tonight I am going to go out and find someone for sex." Let's say I have been doing this for years, and I tell you that I plan to keep doing it until the day I die. If that is not planning to fall, what is it?

[Robert]

Here's a perfect example of blindness:

Let me repeat what Paul said, since I don't think you are listening. "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE." Rom 6:14 NKJ.

[Robert]

It makes a liar out of a holy God who would dare declare to the universe that a sinner is holy and righteous before the on-looking universe

1] "In Christ" we have a humanity that is holy and righteous, but you reject this. You reject the gospel!

2] If you define sin (as does the Bible) as the love of self, then yes you are indulging the flesh in someway. If you define sin as anything outside keeping rules (as you do) then I can see why you take the position that you are holy.

Rob

[Robert]

You give me the impression that you have sin(s) in your life that you either don't want to give up or that you cannot give up. What is a favorite sin that you feel you must hold on to and cannot let go of?

Answer: The love of self - i.e., self-seeking!

Did EGW state that we should stop this sin altogether, or did she state quite the opposite? Let's see:

"There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance." [5T, 479]

So yes, our non-self-righteous fruit proves our faith - NOT OUR GOODNESS. What you are teaching John is old fashioned salvation by law keeping no matter how you twist it! This is legalism.

Notice that the work that justified (proved) Abraham's faith wasn't the keeping of the law, but rather his willingness to put a knife into his son. Read it again and again! But remember Abraham already stood justified when his faith was immature.

Rob

[Robert]

"If we deliberely keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26,27 NIV

Gerry

Stop twisting the Bible to make it state what it does not! Paul doesn't have the moral law in mind. He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Try reading, Doc....Try reading the context starting with Heb 10:1 up through your quote.

Gerry, this is SIN...this is manipulation. You are willfully sinning through misrepresentation. That or you are truly ignorant.

[Robert]

More Jack:

"And having a High Priest over the house of God; Let us draw near [to God] with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience [self-centered motives - i.e., legalism] and our bodies washed with pure water."

Don’t you ever allow the devil to discourage you and to put you into a guilt trip and say, “Look, God will not accept you because you are a sinner.” Please remember, that in Christ, and through His life and death, God looks at you as if you had not sinned, as if you had no sin in you at all. We can come to God, near to Him, without any barrier, through Jesus Christ with a heart full of assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Our humanity, both flesh and mind, in Christ stands perfect. That is what makes Christianity the most wonderful religion.

All other religions teach that God is way up there demanding you down here to be good enough to come up to Him. Jesus Christ came down where we are. He took upon Himself our humanity. By His life and death He redeemed us. Now we can come boldly to God every day, every hour. We can cast our burdens on Him. We can come to Him with assurance, without guilt. Not because we are not sinners but because in Christ we do stand perfect.

It is this truth, folks that we need to be settled into because when we face the time of trouble, when the church organization is disintegrated because of the time of trouble and you and I are scared and up in the mountains the devil will come and play with our feelings. We will agonize with our feelings. Then, folks, please remember that we can come boldly unto God through Jesus Christ with full assurance because our hearts have been sprinkled with the blood of Christ and our bodies have been washed. May God bless us, that we may understand this truth.

[Gerr]

Here's a perfect example of blindness:

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Let me repeat what Paul said, since I don't think you are listening. "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE." Rom 6:14 NKJ.

Then in the very next post Gerry says,

Quote:

"Then either Jesus was joking or told a lie when He told the paralytic in John 5 and the adulterous woman in John 8, "Go and sin NO more."

Okay, on the one hand Gerry tells us we are not under law, but rather grace. Then he "twists" Christ's statements and insists that we are to "sin no more".

This is the mark of a legalist. He can't see, for he is blind.

Gerry, if you could...if you would first have the assurance of salvation then you could actually experience genuine agape. Instead I'm afraid you are producing self-righteousness.

Rob

Hmmmmmmmmm. Then tell us what Jesus meant, since you seem to think you are the only one who has an inside track on Paul and Jesus. And the Apostle Jack, of course.

When Jesus said, "Go and sin no more," what did He mean?

Sin less not more? Stop living a life in opposition to God? Stop being a slave to sin because I have already set you free? Aim to stop sinning but you really don't have to?

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"If we deliberely keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26,27 NIV

Gerry

Stop twisting the Bible to make it state what it does not! Paul doesn't have the moral law in mind. He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Try reading, Doc....Try reading the context starting with Heb 10:1 up through your quote.

Gerry, this is SIN...this is manipulation. You are willfully sinning through misrepresentation. That or you are truly ignorant.

Hebrews 10: 26, 27 is not unrelated to the subject of this thread, Robert. It is talking about people who reject Christ as only way of salvation. They reject Christ in order to hold on to sin. They are "sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth." If I willfully sin and keep doing it and have no intention of stopping, there is nothing more that God can do for me. He's already done all He can do by giving Christ and the Holy Spirit. Continual, deliberate and intentional sinning and a refusal to stop such sin is "trampling under foot the Son of God" (Hebrews 10: 29).

For instance, if I spend the rest of my life intentionally getting drunk and practicing immorality, and I never repent of it and stop it, but on the contrary continue to do it deliberately and willfully, verses 26, 27 would apply to me just as surely as it applied to the original readers of the book of Hebrews: "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"If we deliberely keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26,27 NIV

Gerry

Stop twisting the Bible to make it state what it does not! Paul doesn't have the moral law in mind. He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Try reading, Doc....Try reading the context starting with Heb 10:1 up through your quote.

Gerry, this is SIN...this is manipulation. You are willfully sinning through misrepresentation. That or you are truly ignorant.

Are you inventing your own rules and definitions again, Robert?

No matter how you define sin, Paul says if you deliberately keep on doing it, you have no assurance of salvation. What you are assured of is judgment! Your amen corner says that he has a choice, that he will continue to deliberately choose to sin until the day he dies. And he still claims assurance of salvation! Is that the kind of assurance you want all to have?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Stop twisting the Bible to make it state what it does not! Paul doesn't have the moral law in mind. He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Try reading, Doc....Try reading the context starting with Heb 10:1 up through your quote.

Gerry, this is SIN...this is manipulation. You are willfully sinning through misrepresentation. That or you are truly ignorant.

[/quote']

Are you inventing your own rules and definitions again, Robert?

No matter how you define sin, Paul says if you deliberately keep on doing it, you have no assurance of salvation.

Gerry

Sin, in the context of Hebrews chapter 10, is unbelief. Unbelief isn't covered in the Ten Commandments. Unbelief is a faith issue. However, as Paul states, "the law is not of faith" - it has nothing to do with faith. Why? The law demands performance. It doesn't ask, "Do you believe in me?"

Please be honest and admit you just willfully sinned or admit you are just ignorant of the context of Hebrews 10.

Thanks....

ROb

[Robert]

Quote:

Have never seen a thread like this on this forum before...

H m m m m... , no, can't say that I have....wait a minute...ah, yes, you are right! The echos are reaching me again, yes....yes....exactly the same words! Even the same people! Wow...what a memory you have Stan!!!!!

Yes...it's taken a tangent, but what I originally stated is new - i.e., it's the first time I've mentioned it. Again, you can only experience genuine fruit IF (that's conditional) you have the fully assurance of faith.

I didn't really start to experience fruit until I was settled in the truth as it is "in Christ"! All other ground is sinking sand.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sin, in the context of Hebrews chapter 10, is unbelief. Unbelief isn't covered in the Ten Commandments. Unbelief is a faith issue. However, as Paul states, "the law is not of faith" - it has nothing to do with faith. Why? The law demands performance. It doesn't ask, "Do you believe in me?"

Please be honest and admit you just willfully sinned or admit you are just ignorant of the context of Hebrews 10.

Thanks....

ROb

And how does one know that you truly believe? That you are not guilty of unbelief?

Gerry

[Gerr]

We're on page 9 now.

21 to go.

[Robert]

Quote:

Sin, in the context of Hebrews chapter 10, is unbelief. Unbelief isn't covered in the Ten Commandments. Unbelief is a faith issue. However, as Paul states, "the law is not of faith" - it has nothing to do with faith. Why? The law demands performance. It doesn't ask, "Do you believe in me?"

Please be honest and admit you just willfully sinned or admit you are just ignorant of the context of Hebrews 10.

Thanks....

ROb

And how does one know that you truly believe? That you are not guilty of unbelief?

Gerry

Gerry...you are being dishonest with the context. You stated that the sin mentioned in Hebrews 10 was linked to the law. This is a untrue! Why lie? Now you are covering your transgression.

[John317]

Gerry...you are being dishonest with the context... Why lie?

You should take people's replies at face value. Maybe you see something that someone else does not see, or you see it differently, but that doesn't mean we should jump to the conclusion that someone is being dishonest or lying. To know that in this situation would require the ability to read hearts and minds.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gerry...you are being dishonest with the context... Why lie?

You should take people's replies at face value. Maybe you see something that someone else does not see, or you see it differently, but that doesn't mean we should jump to the conclusion that someone is being dishonest or lying. To know that in this situation would require the ability to read hearts and minds.

I stand by my statement. Gerry has either lied about the context in Hebrews 10 or he is ignorant!

[Robert]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

What is this willful, persistent sin that Paul speaks of according to the immediate context?

Whatever it is it has to do with receiving "the truth"! What truth? What's the context?

verse 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot , who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him.

What does that mean - "that sanctified him"?

Verse 10: And by that will [by Christ's doing and dying], we have been made holy [sanctified] through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

That's the context!

Hence, the willful sin Paul speaks of is clearly the sin of unbelief!

Now you know the truth and the truth can keep you from being ignorant!

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Can you find me someone who believes they are saved by keeping the law?

YES. But of course 'they' will say it is Jesus working through them to keep it. Thus ... at some point they will 'perfectly' keep all of His commands.

Is Jesus too much of a whimpy God to do that?

[Woody]

Quote:

Hence, the willful sin Paul speaks of is clearly the sin of unbelief!

Quote:

Now you know the truth and the truth can keep you from being ignorant!

Good one Robert. But some here prefer ignorance. No ... they prefer pointing fingers and condemning others .

I find that these people usually have big sins that they need to hide under the protection of claiming one needs perfection. Do you find this also? They usually burn out and go the other way ... rejecting God eventually.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

YES. But of course 'they' will say it is Jesus working through them to keep it. Thus ... at some point they will 'perfectly' keep all of His commands.

Is Jesus too much of a whimpy God to do that?

It's all in the timing Shane. This will be accomplished in all believers at the second coming. Currently ... we sinners are vetoing it.

[Dr. Shane]

I think we get sealed before the second coming. When Christ leaves the sanctuary we will stand without a Mediator - perfect, sinless, without blemish.

[Woody]

We are perfect at this time ONLY because the life of Jesus is judged in our place. Our actual "works" are not judged except that we accept Jesus. That is our work. If I am judged by MY "works" ... I am found guilty for I sin. But the life of Jesus is placed to my account and I am judged or accounted as perfectly innocent and pure. I stand before the judge as having perfect and spotless works.

However ... I am not fit for heaven. I am a sinner. I am a forgiven sinner yes. But we still can't have sin in heaven ... forgiven or not. SO, I have to be changed ... AT the second coming.

This is the Good News of Salvation for all those who believe in Him. Isn't it wonderful? Praise God.

Quote:

"Restoration to the divine image ... victory over every sin ... will be completed at the second advent" 7 BC 649

[Dr. Shane]

Jesus is currently our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. As the High Priest He is the Mediator for our sins. When He completes the judgment He will leave the sanctuary. At that time mankind will cease to have a Mediator. The judgment will be over. Everyone's fate will be sealed. "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev. 22:11) "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." (Amos 8:11, 12)

Let's try to use a little more Bible texts when we make sweeping statements. I don't see one Bible text in the previous post.