Faith and works - another view

[Neil D]

Gosh, guys....the positions that you guys hold are so diameterically opposed....Are you guys listening to each other? .....come on...really listening?

Look, I know I am a late comer to this....And I have only read the last couple of ad nauseaum pages...But really....you two define what the other one is saying and make your arugement and to be trueful, it looks like you two just want to argue....

Gerry said-

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Which "sin" are you talking about, Gerry? Willful sinfulness? or inherted sinfulness? Or is it ignorant sinfulness? Yes, one sets up the other [and hopefully, you know which one I am talking about]...Which is Paul talking about in this passage? All of them? If so, then you are talking about some sort of legalism...To which Paul had a LOT to say about working your way into heaven

And Robert, surely you can see that grace does abound toward those who decide not to sin...? Correct? And that to a converted Christian, who decides to not sin, this is evidence of a renewing Spirit and evidence that God is working in an individual...right?

What is left in that gray area of this arguement is God's working in the individual's life. IOWs, it is the individual who decides where to follow, where they believe that God is leading, and which sins to avoid......right guys?

Or is this another ad nauseum discussion of minutea?

[Woody]

Sorry to disagree with you friend ... but Neil ... they ARE miles apart. One believes he is saved by the keeping of the law. The other believes he is saved by Christ's keeping of the law.

A big difference.

[Stan]

Can you find me someone who believes they are saved by keeping the law?

[Neil D]

Didn't I describe that in my post????

[Woody]

Can you find me someone who believes they are saved by keeping the law?

YES. But of course 'they' will say it is Jesus working through them to keep it. Thus ... at some point they will 'perfectly' keep all of His commands.

Not gonna happin. We are all sinners and will remain sinners until we see His face at the second coming. In other words ... we will sin until the day we die. But, Christ will count us as perfect because it is in our heart to obey Him and He places to the sinners account ... the perfect life of Jesus ... so that HIS life is accounted to ours.

That being said .... even on this earth ... there is power to overcome any and all sin. The deal is though that in this life ... we will not choose to avail ourselves to that power. ONLY when we see HIS face at the second coming will we be changed and then take for ourselves that power.

To claim that in this life we will be without sin ... is to place ourselves as God. We are not gods ... we are sinners and will remain so until the day we die. We have no righteousnes in this life. Our right doing is as filthy rags. What we allow Him to do in our life on this earth is just not enough nor will it ever be. We must put on His Robe.

So I hope that clarifies the difference. It is a dangerous belief to think that what little we allow CHrist to do in our life here on this earth is worth anything towards salvation. Those who believe this do believe that their works are with something. But our works are nothing but filthy rags towards our salvation.

[Gerr]

[Gerr]

Quote:

To claim that in this life we will be without sin ... is to place ourselves as God. We are not gods ... we are sinners and will remain so until the day we die.

Then either Jesus was joking or told a lie when He told the paralytic in John 5 and the adulterous woman in John 8, "Go and sin NO more."

Was He telling the truth or not?

Quote:

We have no righteousnes in this life.

Righteousness that will merit heaven? I agree 1 million %!!!!

Quote:

Our right doing is as filthy rags.

Here is what THE WORD says about the righteousness wrought out by Jesus in and through the saints:

"And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Rev 19:8 NKJ

Quote:

What we allow Him to do in our life on this earth is just not enough nor will it ever be. We must put on His Robe.

And what does putting on His robe mean? Just putting a claim on His righteousnes without being washed clean? For God to declare someone and not wash him would make God a liar. Heaven forbid!!!

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you EAT the flesh of the Son of Man and DRINK His blood, you have no life in you." Jn 6:53 NKJ.

"To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are COMPLETE in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become PARTAKERS of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a PART OF OUR BEING. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace must be ASSIMILATED." DA 389

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Gerry

We have no righteousnes in this life. Our right doing is as filthy rags. What we allow Him to do in our life on this earth is just not enough nor will it ever be. We must put on His Robe.

So I hope that clarifies the difference. It is a dangerous belief to think that what little we allow CHrist to do in our life here on this earth is worth anything towards salvation. Those who believe this do believe that their works are with something. But our works are nothing but filthy rags towards our salvation.

I do agree with the last part below your name. It does sound familiar. But Good. Good stuff.

[Woody]

Quote:

Didn't I describe that in my post????

Neil ... you described it as follow:

" ad nauseum discussion of minutea "

That ... I disagree with. I think there is a huge and important difference between those who think you are saved by Grace + Works ... and those who rely totally on the life and death of Christ for their salvation.

[Neil D]

Then either Jesus was joking or told a lie when He told the paralytic in John 5 and the adulterous woman in John 8, "Go and sin NO more."

Was He telling the truth or not?

Gerry

Well, perhaps He said "Go and sin no MORE."

Depends upon who emphasized what word, don'tcha think?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Then either Jesus was joking or told a lie when He told the paralytic in John 5 and the adulterous woman in John 8, "Go and sin NO more."

Was He telling the truth or not?

Gerry

Well, perhaps He said "Go and sin no MORE."

Depends upon who emphasized what word, don'tcha think?

Neil ... are you sayin it's OK to go out and party now ?

:A

[Neil D]

Neil ... you described it as follow:

" ad nauseum discussion of minutea "

That ... I disagree with. I think there is a huge and important difference between those who think you are saved by Grace + Works ... and those who rely totally on the life and death of Christ for their salvation.

The "ad nauseum discussion of minutea" is the banntering of this ' "you are saved by works" vs "you are saved by grace" ' when in reality you are viewing the same quarter, from different sides.

If you guys would just agree with what you guys find wrong, and then work from there on what you disagree with, you might get further in your discussion...

Right now,FOR EXAMPLE, one side [ie the "grace" side] defines what the works side is saying [when the works side should define it] and then they [the 'grace side] go off on thier tangent, even further from agreement...And the other side gets even further incensed and they do the very thing that the other side does...and they get incensed even further...Hence, my conclusion: YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. You guys just want to see your posts up here and like being in the limelight for a few seconds...Heaven forbid that someone steals the limelight....'cuz you gotta disagree some more, if you want the limelight....

You guys just don't know what you are talking about...You'all are talkin' past each other and can't seem to hear what the other is saying....

Ooooh, the LOVE is here!!! Can'tcha FEEL that LOVE!?!!?

[Neil D]

Well, perhaps He said "Go and sin no MORE."

Depends upon who emphasized what word, don'tcha think?

Neil ... are you sayin it's OK to go out and party now ?

:A

[John317]

Can you find me someone who believes they are saved by keeping the law?

There are some groups or denominations that believe and teach that we are saved by keeping commandments and law or rules, but I don't believe anyone in CA is saying we are saved by law-keeping. Our works of faith simply demonstrate whether our faith is dead or alive, whether it's genuine or false. As Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments, just as I kept my Father's commandments."

One might compare it with our life in a marriage relationship. If we love our spouses we will show it. One way of showing our love is by remaining faithful. The same applies to our faithfulness or loyalty to God. It's not a question of earning "marriage" with our spouse by obeying certain laws or rules. Rather we do certain things because we are married and out of love.

What will happen, though, if we practice unfaithfulness and disloyalty? We will not be married. And what will happen to Christians who continue to practice unfaithfulness and disloyalty to God? If they don't repent and allow God to change their heart and their life, they will ultimately be found outside the bride of Christ.

If that sounds to someone like salvation by law-keeping, all I can say is that they're not listening to or grasping some basic teachings of the Bible.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Well, perhaps He said "Go and sin no MORE."

Depends upon who emphasized what word, don'tcha think?

Neil ... are you sayin it's OK to go out and party now ?

:A

Sounds like a good idea to me....

[Woody]

Quote:

What will happen, though, if we practice unfaithfulness and disloyalty? We will soon not be married.

Personally I follow the Biblical outline for marriage. God calls us to be married for life. That means that when a one is "disloyal" we do not caste them off. We renew our "loyalty" and we pledge to do better. We get counseling through study of the Word. But we remain married despite our failure.

[Woody]

Quote:

One might compare it with our life in a marriage relationship. If we love our spouses we will show it.

But NO marriage is Perfect.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gerry said-

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Which "sin" are you talking about, Gerry? Willful sinfulness? or inherted sinfulness? Or is it ignorant sinfulness? Yes, one sets up the other [and hopefully, you know which one I am talking about]...Which is Paul talking about in this passage? All of them?

Study what Paul had to say. My understanding of what He is saying is not about some specific sinful act, but rather sin as a way of life. He is talking about about sin as a master. Does a believer remain a slave to sin as a way of life? Read what Paul says for yourself in Rom 6. His answer is clearly no.

Gerry

[Woody]

Do you have sin in your life Gerry ?

If so .... IF you have any sin in your life .... are you a slave to sin? If you say you are without sin ... then the truth is not in you. So, I ask you again ... are you a slave to sin or not?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Then either Jesus was joking or told a lie when He told the paralytic in John 5 and the adulterous woman in John 8, "Go and sin NO more."

Was He telling the truth or not?

Gerry

Well, perhaps He said "Go and sin no MORE."

Depends upon who emphasized what word, don'tcha think?

If that were His thrust, perhaps He would have said:

"Go and sin less?"

Or why did He say to the paralytic: "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." Jn 5:14 NKJ, if He just meant less sinning?

Gerry

[John317]

Quote:

One might compare it with our life in a marriage relationship. If we love our spouses we will show it.

But NO marriage is Perfect.

Of course not. And God does not require that you or I be absolutely perfect Christians in order to be welcomed into the city of God, either. God doesn't require that you or I be "sinless."

Just as a wife or husband show "grace" to their spouse by forgiving mistakes, God also shows grace toward us through forgiveness. But now what happens if the spouse says, "I am going to continue being unfaithful to my marriage partner, and he or she will just have to keep forgiving me for being disloyal. I have no intention of stopping"? How long do you think that marriage will continue? I suspect not long because the attitude shows that there is not much of a marriage anyway.

[Woody]

Perhaps you believe in Divorce ... I don't. And I don't think our Lord does either.

[John317]

Perhaps you believe in Divorce ... I don't. And I don't think our Lord does either.

You're not listening, Redwood.

Of course God hates divorce. And he will hate rejecting people from His kingdom, but he will do it, won't he?

[Neil D]

Quote:

Gerry said-

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Which "sin" are you talking about, Gerry? Willful sinfulness? or inherted sinfulness? Or is it ignorant sinfulness? Yes, one sets up the other [and hopefully, you know which one I am talking about]...Which is Paul talking about in this passage? All of them?

Study what Paul had to say. My understanding of what He is saying is not about some specific sinful act, but rather sin as a way of life. He is talking about about sin as a master. Does a believer remain a slave to sin as a way of life? Read what Paul says for yourself in Rom 6. His answer is clearly no.

Gerry

I just popped back in to see what has happen in the few minutes that I have been gone and saw this...and had to reply to it...

Gerry, you said "My understanding of what He is saying is not about some specific sinful act, but rather sin as a way of life. ...

What you are implying is that a person is committed to sinning, but not commited to Christ. Therefore, that person is not a Christian, by definition.

A Christian is one who follows Christ, a disciple, a follower of His rules...And as such, A Christian is allowed grow...Paul talks about 'leaving those things that were in the past and moving foward toward Christ" or something like that. There are other texts about growing in Christ as well...Now, some people may think that what one Christian does is wrong...others may not...but the judgement is left to the individual and his relationship with Christ. "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"...These are things to be worked out between the Christian and Jesus...NOT the prying eyes of the gossipers and such.

Therefore, your arguement about "sin being a way of life" is moot for those who are Christians and can only be applied to those who are non-Christians and even then, you cant say a whole lot about that either for offending them against Christ.... So, IMHO, the arguement is moot.

Sorry...

[Neil D]

Hey ... can we all come on over to your place ??? OR does the State of Jefferson require a visa to cross the border?

BTW ... Who runs that rogue state of yours? I hear you even have a river called The Rogue River. What is it with you guys?

Maybe the State of Jefferson doesn't require a visa, but my Aunt does and I am staying with her...

And the Rogue is available to anyone who wishes to go boating on it....of course, you must be prepared for the several rapids that course thru the river and a few falls [only 25 feet high or so] and it is a bit rough in some spotts....but a lot of fun...