Faith and works - another view

[Robert]

Here's what my friend Jack has to say:

One reason why so many Christians today fail to demonstrate the power of the gospel in their lives is that their faith is a self-centered faith. It is self-centered because they have failed to understand the facts of the objective gospel — Christ our righteousness. If a person does not believe that full and complete salvation has already been obtained in Jesus Christ, if a person believes that salvation ultimately depends to some degree on his or her behavior, then the faith such a person is able to generate will naturally be polluted with self-concern.

Where justification by faith is not clearly understood, there is insecurity. Where there is insecurity, there is fear. And where there is fear, there can be no real love, only concern for self. “Perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment” [1 John 4:18].

The idea that “I have to be good,” or “I’m not good enough to qualify for heaven” is one of the great stumbling blocks hindering God’s people today from experiencing genuine faith. As a result, the church is spiritually bankrupt [see Revelation 3:17]. This is why it is so tremendously important that we understand the objective facts of the gospel, the truth as it is in Jesus. Without this understanding, we can never experience genuine faith that is motivated by love [see Galatians 5:6].

[Robert]

My prediction - this thread will be circular and will run for over 30 pages

No, hopefully not, because this time I have a new approach for those who can see.

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

And He does the very best with the paddles. When you or I try to use them ... we FAIL.

To some extent that is true. However Jesus gives credit to those who ask Him into their lives.

"...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NASB

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: fccool

We have a saying in Russia. Pod lyezachiy kamyen' voda nye tyechyot.

Which loosely translated means, the water won't flow under the stone which sits on the same place.

So, all the ethnic wisdom aside, God works through us... but if we sitting on a couch watching TV... don't expect any spiritual miracles in your life . If you do what you always did, you will get what you always got.

I was going to respond to Redwood, but what you said will suffice.

Gerry

Not denying the wisdom of the adage, however the rock in the stream is without life whereas we need Life infused in us before the works can be a part of our experience in concert with God.

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." John 15:4 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

"...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NASB

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Here's what my friend Jack has to say:

What about the apostle John? What does he have to say?

[LifeHiscost]

Unless this has taken place much of what you term works is really nothing more that self-righteous acts.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit." Matthew 7:15-17 NASB

Regards!

[Robert]

Quote:

Here's what my friend Jack has to say:

What about the apostle John? What does he have to say?

You mean your interpretation of John? At least re-read Jack's quote. Think outside the box of traditionalism.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Unless this has taken place much of what you term works is really nothing more that self-righteous acts.

[color:#CC0000]"You will know them by their fruits.

Yes...you are either self-righteous or you are not....

[Robert]

At least re-read Jack's quote.

Here it is again:

If a person does not believe that full and complete salvation has already been obtained in Jesus Christ, if a person believes that salvation ultimately depends to some degree on his or her behavior, then the faith such a person is able to generate will naturally be polluted with self-concern.

Where justification by faith is not clearly understood, there is insecurity. Where there is insecurity, there is fear. And where there is fear, there can be no real love, only concern for self. “Perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment” [1 John 4:18].

The idea that “I have to be good,” or “I’m not good enough to qualify for heaven” is one of the great stumbling blocks hindering God’s people today from experiencing genuine faith.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Shane

The epistle of First John gives clear assurance of salvation. It is also interwoven with a mix of faith and works.

This is Traditional Adventism, Shane. You cannot have assurance based on works, period.

Which of the Scriptures Shane provided, should we expunge from the Word, Robert, to make God's intent for us more clear?

Regards!

[Planey]

Quote:

Here's what my friend Jack has to say:

What about the apostle John? What does he have to say?

Why would you need the Apostle John when you have "my friend Jack"???

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

You mean your interpretation of John?

I don't have an "interpretation". Is there a problem discussing the epistle of First John? Why is it that the epistle of First John is off limits? Why not start talking about the only epistle that was written specifically to give us the assurance of salvation?

[Robert]

Quote:

You mean your interpretation of John?

I don't have an "interpretation". Is there a problem discussing the epistle of First John? Why is it that the epistle of First John is off limits? Why not start talking about the only epistle that was written specifically to give us the assurance of salvation?

Because you are not willing to let go of your traditional, legalistic view. We will go on and on for 30 pages or more.

Re-read Jack...disprove his view on John. Again:

If a person does not believe that full and complete salvation has already been obtained in Jesus Christ, if a person believes that salvation ultimately depends to some degree on his or her behavior, then the faith such a person is able to generate will naturally be polluted with self-concern.

Where justification by faith is not clearly understood, there is insecurity. Where there is insecurity, there is fear. And where there is fear, there can be no real love, only concern for self. “Perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment” [1 John 4:18].

The idea that “I have to be good,” or “I’m not good enough to qualify for heaven” is one of the great stumbling blocks hindering God’s people today from experiencing genuine faith.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

This is Traditional Adventism, Shane.

No, it is John's first epistle. Of course, if one considers that the Apostle John was an Adventist, I guess we could say that it is traditional Adventism.

Sometimes our traditions have not made it as plain as the sure Word has delineated. Robert probably makes a good point insofar as he knows. But having read many of his posts, IMO, he hasn't been paying much attention to the recent results brought about by God, occuring through the efforts by Adventists to bring the gospel to all the world.

The last time I remember someone mentioning figures, Adventists have seen more people accept Jesus in the last year through their efforts, yoked with God's grace, than the previous 75 years put together. Maybe we're learning something that you might benefit from practicing, Robert.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14 KJV

Perhaps joining those who are seeing God work through them for the salvation of souls could give a different perspective.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

The works are the result of the faith. If you have the faith, the works will follow. You cant have real faith without the works following and you cant have the works without the faith. We are not saved because of the works, we are saved by faith, but the works show that we have been and are on a daily basis being saved. Kinda wordy but I hope the meaning is plain.

Hope you don't mind my using the Word to add clarity to the underlined, which I'm sure you meant, Nightingale.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" Eph 2:8,9

Blessings!

[Robert]

Adventists have seen more people accept Jesus in the last year through their efforts, yoked with God's grace, than the previous 75 years put together.

This is bragging!

[LifeHiscost]

Why would you need the Apostle John when you have "my friend Jack"???

Graeme

teehe teehe LOL LOL Ahem!

I'm sorry. But I thought that was funny.

[LifeHiscost]

The idea that “I have to be good,” or “I’m not good enough to qualify for heaven” is one of the great stumbling blocks hindering God’s people today from experiencing genuine faith.

If that is the reason then it has been rapidly being replaced by the fact recognized that we are, none of us, "good" enough to enter heaven or receive salvation.

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" Matthew 19:17

KJV

However, recognizing that fact does not motivate those who do, to remain in the pigpen where they were. Perhaps not all, but certainly many are receiving the sanctified life given by God as a gift through the righteousness of His Son.

"...so that no man may boast before God.

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." 1 Cor 1:29-31 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

My prediction - this thread will be circular and will run for over 30 pages

Not to say that's true, but

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Shane. You cannot have assurance based on works, period.

A word of caution though Robert. We do have assurance that the works of Christ through the life that He has already lived .... IS sufficient enough to answer the curse of the Law. Therefore ... we do have assurance of salvation through HIS works that HE accomplished on this earth.

That is the REAL assurance of salvation.

tu And is now doing in the courts of heaven.

"I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me." Psalms 3:5 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

Until folks realize the selfishness of motive they will continue to produce self-righteous fruit - i.e., the flesh trying to act good.

The motivations will always be polluted with thoughts on self as in "am I good enough" or "I better be good or God's going to roast me in hell."

As EGW states, fear of punishment or hope of reward isn't love at all. It's really sin.....

So, if you want to experience genuine fruit, accept that "in Christ" you have salvation full and complete. Unless you have this assurance your fruit will be nauseating to Christ.

Robert

Rob

[olger]

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}

[Neil D]

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}

Question:

Does this paragraph emphasis the obedience...from the heart or obeying the commandments of God?

Because obeying from the heart is a whole lot easier than obeying the commmands of Someone.... Just my opinion...

[olger]

Gotcha.

This helps us to understand why God writes His Law upon the heart of His people.