Faith and works - another view

[LifeHiscost]

According to Jeremiah, a distinguishing feature of the New Covenant was the writing of the Law upon the heart of man. This turns the Law from an accusing finger into a hand upon the shoulder. Same law.

It is our relationship to it that has changed.

regards,

OG

[LifeHiscost]

What Jack is saying is that if you do not have the assurance of salvation your works will always be self-righteous. If you truly want fruit in harmony with the law you must accept that "in Christ" you are fully qualified for heaven now and in the judgment. If you reject this you reject heaven!

"...watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'"

Luke 21:36 YLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I find righteousness by disobedience to be just as useless as righteousness by obedience.

oG

And both are highly repugnant, although our Father may believe one to be more repugnant than the other.

"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;

I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me

I said, 'Here am I, here am I,'

To a nation which did not call on My name.

I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,

Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, A people who continually provoke Me to My face

"Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me,

For I am holier than you!'

These are smoke in My nostrils,"

Isaiah 65:1-3,5 NASB

Thus the need for the promise,

" But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom,... and righteousness...." 1 Cor 1:30 KJV

Regards!

[olger]

Amen. "He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name's sake." A surrendered heart who walks in obedience brings glory to God and is an integral part of the Great CONTROVERSY. After all, it was Satan who claimed that we cannot render obedience.

Let us not join the enemy's lies but "seek the Lord daily while He may be found."

A long time ago, there was a group of people identified as the Awakeners who were desperately afraid that we might do something to add to our salvation. Wouldn't it be something if I never talked to my wife for fear that I might add to our marriage.

olger

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Paul takes up 53% of the NT. He is the man!

John is the only gospel writer that claims to have had a direct eye-witness account. "This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true" (John 21:24). John is referred to as the disciple Jesus loved. John was one of only three witness of raising of Jairus' daughter, of the Transfiguration and of the suffering of Christ in Gethsemane. John was the only disciple that followed Christ all the way to the cross. He, along with Peter, was first to arrive at the empty grave after the Resurrection. He was also the disciple chosen to write the Revelation of Christ. Certainly he requires every bit of respect as does the Apostle Paul.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Paul's message on the gospel is not hard to understand. Peter most likely had in mind other statements such as found in 1 Tim 2:15: "Women shall be saved through the bearing of children"

Now Peter doesn't tell us where he had difficulty, does he? Do we dare to speculate? I would rather base my beliefs of salvation outside the epistles of Paul and use the rest of Scripture in order to understand Paul. That seems like a safer course if I am searching for truth.

[Robert]

Quote:

Paul's message on the gospel is not hard to understand. Peter most likely had in mind other statements such as found in 1 Tim 2:15: "Women shall be saved through the bearing of children"

Now Peter doesn't tell us where he had difficulty, does he? Do we dare to speculate? I would rather base my beliefs of salvation outside the epistles of Paul and use the rest of Scripture in order to understand Paul. That seems like a safer course if I am searching for truth.

"Paul, a servant [the Greek word is slave] of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle [but notice this next statement] and set apart for the gospel of God." [Romans 1:1]

Paul was the Theologian of the New Testament. Almost half of the New Testament is Paul’s writing. We would be terribly at a loss, as a Christian church, if we did not have his writings. So number one, Paul was God’s chosen vessel, to expound the gospel to the world.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What you are doing is putting the believer in a no win situation!!!

No, the law does that....

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are NOT under law but under grace." PAUL in Rom 6:14 NKJ.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT under the law." PAUL in Gal 5:18 NKJ

You see, Rob, you keep brandishing that legalist-labeling sword of yours while you are so blind to see that you are the legalist par excellance by bringing believers back under the condemnation of the law even though they are obeying it from the heart albeit imperfectly.

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No' date=' the law does that.... [/quote']

... you are so blind to see that you are the legalist par excellance by bringing believers back under the condemnation of the law even though they are obeying it from the heart albeit imperfectly. Gerry

No, I'm not a legalist - but if you are going to insist on heaven by performance then I will give you law!

And, BTW, keeping the law imperfectly doesn't answer the law. The law wants one thing: 100% obedience!

EGW:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Robert]

Okay folks, we are getting away from the subject. The subject is: If you want to genuinely reflect God's agape love you must first have the assurance of salvation. Without this assurance your fruit will be self-righteous because it will be polluted with self-concerns.

[Planey]

...if you are going to insist on heaven by performance then I will give you law!

Robert, you have no authority to give me anything!

I will get my guidance, my teaching, my admonitions from the Bible as it reads to me when I study it with the promised guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe God has ordained you as a Jeremiah-type prophet to continually condemn us and preach death and destruction to all on CA.

Nor to judge our spiritual condition.

Back off.

Give your continual harping a rest for a while.

A long while, please

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Paul was the Theologian of the New Testament.

I hope that was just a typo. Capitalizing the "t" in theologian when it is not the first work in a sentence means it refers to a deity. I.e. Jesus is the great Theologian. I do hope that no one is making Paul into a deity.

Of course all this "Paul" talk seems to be just a distraction so we don't have to talk about how John told us we can have the assurance of salvation.

[fccool]

Just a genera reply to the thread:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16"This is the covenant I will make with them

after that time, says the Lord.

I will put my laws in their hearts,

and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:

"Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

PS: This one most likely was not written by Paul

[David Koot]

'allo Cool,

I do believe that Hebrews was written by Paul. It was his supreme effort to reach his countrymen.

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

I certainly don't mean to imply that Paul and John teach two different gospels. Both are inspired by the same Spirit. However each has his own style. Since Peter tells us some of Paul's writings are difficult to understand. I believe it best to start with John. Understand what John is saying first and then advance to Paul.

[LifeHiscost]

Amen. After all, it was Satan who claimed that we cannot render obedience.

olger

To me, this above, is another of those half-truths that causes confusion in the minds of men who have a propensity toward walking independent of God's counsels. On the one hand it is true according to the words of Jesus Himself.

"...he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."

John 15:5 NASB

The first half of that scripture seems often to be eclipsed by the latter. However the first half is soundly verified by the disciple Paul's personal testimony.

"I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [i am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me; I am self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency]. Phil 4:13 AMP

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13 NKJV

It seems obvious no fallen human being meets up to all of the characteristics in sanctification as the texts indicate. However being justified by faith allows each one born from above to find assurance that,

"...we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 KJV

For while,

"...I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..." Romans 7:18 KJV

Yet I am confident,

"...it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" Philippians 2:13 KJV

"...I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Philippians 1:6 NASB

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward." Hebrews 10:35 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

but if you are going to insist on heaven by performance then I will give you law!

Straw man!!Straw man!! - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Regards!

[Robert]

Robert, you have no authority to give me anything!

[Robert]

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

The “sin” spoken of in Heb.10:26 is not transgression of the law as we know it in first John, but as Christ explained it in John sixteen. Please turn to John sixteen. You see the Bible puts sin into two categories: One is that sin is the transgression of the law. If you break one of the ten commandments you come under condemnation. I tell you that in Christ you have forgiveness for all ten. But there is one sin that God cannot forgive. Jesus describes that in John 16:8:

And when He [the Holy Spirit] is come, He will convince the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

Look at verse nine:

Of sin, because they believe not on me.

Just like faith is a willful accepting of Jesus Christ in heart obedience to the gospel, unbelief is a willful rejection of Christ. So there cannot be a sin of unbelief in the true sense of the word unless you first receive the knowledge of the truth. A person who has never heard the gospel cannot truly commit the sin of unbelief. Unbelief is a deliberate act of the will. Jesus is saying that, if you persistently refuse the gospel, the gift of God, the sacrifice of Christ which has perfected the human race forever, then there is no way I can save you. Back to Heb. 10:26:

After you have received the knowledge of the truth.

The word “truth” here is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “I am the truth, the way, and the life.” After you have received the knowledge of Him and you are convinced by the Holy Spirit and you refuse, after you know this and you refuse you cannot be saved because Jesus did not die on the cross for unbelief. If He did then you would have to say that the heresy of universalism is true. It is not a heresy. Universalism says that because Christ died for all men all men will be saved. But there is one sin that Christ did not die for: the sin of unbelief. For every other sin, breaking the commandments, there is forgiveness but against the sin of unbelief there is no forgiveness. I repeat: unbelief is a willful rejection of Jesus Christ that is done persistently. Not once or twice but continually.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

but if you are going to insist on heaven by performance then I will give you law!

Straw man!!Straw man!! - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Regards!

What do think the OC was all about? "Obey and live, disobey and die"! That was given to a people [the Jews] who were legalistic. The only way to shut the mouth of a legalist is to give him more and more rules until he gives up and rests fully in Christ.

So I have a job here on CA for their are many legalists.

[Robert]

I guess Sadventists don't want assurance. Well, no assurance no genuine fruit. That leaves self-righteous fruit, which will condemn many Sadventists in the judgment. Now surely you folks want some assurance now, huh?

I'm telling you that unless you have assurance of salvation first there will be no fruit. Genuine fruit proves your faith is real. No faith, no heaven!

And again, the only way to experience genuine agape is by having the full assurance of salvation. But go ahead and have it your way because in the end you'll have death and I'll have life.

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

Paul takes up 53% of the NT. He is the man! Adventists can't understand Paul because they tend towards legalism. Get down Romans and Galatians and you'll see things differently.

Yep, I'm looking at Galatians and Paul says:

"Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.....

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorvery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who PRACTICE [present tense] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 NKJ

Again Paul in Rom 6:1

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

You can't get more emphatic than that. Yet you and your amen corner continue to claim that the believer will continue to be FULL of sin and in fact your amen corner even brazenly brags [that's what it sounds like to me, I could be wrong] that he will continue to willfully sin until Jesus changes him magically at His second coming.

Now, if Jesus forgives me, BLOTS out my sins with His blood which He has promised, and puts His righteousness in my bank account, and imparts that righteousness in my life, how could I still be FULL of sin? I still make mistakes, yes! I will continue to do that as long as I am in this imperfect body, but if I abide in Christ every moment of my breath, the cleansing is continuous, and therefore cannot be FULL of sin! A believer and NOT be FULL of sin and at the same time be FULL of the righteousness of Christk! That is what righteousness by faith is all about!

Gerry

[olger]

I must concur, friend.

"Feel the pulse and vibration

the rumblin force

Someone is out there

beating on a dead horse."

[Robert]

The law doesn't care if you try...it demands you to live Christ's life. No selfishness....none....

Rob

[Woody]

Amen Robert. Keep preachin. Don't give up on the legalists. Keep preachin the Gospel Good News of Salvation. God knows we need it in our church. The laws demands are met by only one man and that is Christ Jesus. To think that 'we' can meet it is to place us as God.

Those who think 'they' can meet the demands of the law will be lost. We must accept the Robe of Jesus only as our means of salvation.

Amen.