"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[Woody]

Quote:

The Bible is an owners manual. The manual has many warnings about things that might cause harm to the product. Sin is just a general catagory for things that can cause harm to us ... the product for which the owners manual was given.

I have a problem with this....

I don't know of a owner's manual that comes with a history of the company, nor policy making decision made by the products...nor details about the Owner of all the products....

It just doesn't quite fit,..you understand...

Oh well Neil. I tried. I guess I am referring to all the do's and don'ts that might be considered an owner's manual. The history of the company would have to be called something else. It would just be bonus material to promote the owner and business.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Can you post the whole article to see what he is really saying?

He saying just what I've been saying all along. Christ DIED for those sins.

Sorry, Red. I've seen too many of your snippets which you have used to prove your point, but when read in context actually prove the opposite! So, I'd rather read the article than take one sentence he said at face value.

Gerry

I think you will find that the author is promoting just what I have frequently outlined here on CA. But many here are not interested in the way the words are interpreted. They are only interested in attacking because the words do not meet their personal definition.

Christ died for all those sins IN me. The author points out that He does both saving us FROM our sins and IN our sins. All the sins that are IN me ... He forgives. For He does not save us FROM all our sins in reference to a victory over each and every sin. We will still have some sins that we have not over-come. And those sins He also died for.

But here on CA I've noticed that words and phrases have personal definitions that some like to own. And if another person uses the "wrong" usage or definition ... then they are strongly 'corrected'. I would dare to say that my definitions would not be in conflict with yours ... but because some feel they 'own' the definition that is theirs ... I am portrayed as objectionable. And I don't mind being portrayed as the villian. That is the game. And so I will play along.

However ... for the record .... my belief is really no different than yours. I just express it differently as did Tom.

[Woody]

Gerry ... just for you ... I will quote a little more to give you context.

"The Holy Spirit is not our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God,is. Good works are the result of the salvation we receive as a free gift, not the cause of it.If we can only be saved FROM our sins and not IN our sins, we are all doomed. We will not be liberated from our carnal nature until glorification, so until then Paul's cry "Oh wretched man that I am" still applies to even the most dedicated Christian.

Even our prayers - while in church - and while we are on our best behavior - are defiled and unworthy. If our prayers and worship are defiled, what does that say about our supposed obedience? " Pastor Tom Hughes

[Gerr]

Sorry, Red. The proofs for your position is long on opinions but short on Scriptural support. Just citing 70x7 & saying Christ died for my sins won't make even a slice. It is very comforting to know that, yes, Christ died for my sins and that forgiveness is offered to every repentant soul no matter what the sin is. But to say that they give me comfort to keep on living like I've never heard of Christ is against what the rest of Scripture have to say about sin and those who willfully persist in it.

Gerry

[Gerr]

I'm sorry, but until I can read the whole article, I'm not going to make any conclusions about his position, so please spare me the snippets.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

But to say that they give me comfort to keep on living like I've never heard of Christ

Wow !! That is quite the jump !! Where did you get this idea. I for one have never said this. And Tom Hughes for sure never said this. Your mind sure does come up with some wild thoughts at times Gerry. But let's stick with the facts of what we are saying here and not your imagination. Stick with the words. OR could you please explain to me how you get this thought from either Tom Hughes or Redwood. Talk about putting words in ones mouth !!

[Woody]

I'm sorry, but until I can read the whole article, I'm not going to make any conclusions about his position, so please spare me the snippets.

Gerry

If you don't like this quote ... try reading some of Ellen White's compilations. They will quote one small sentence and you have no idea where it came from and what was the context or who it was written to. Just amazing. But we accept her snippets when in book form. Go figure.

[Gerr]

Quote:

But to say that they give me comfort to keep on living like I've never heard of Christ

Wow !! That is quite the jump !! Where did you get this idea. I for one have never said this. And Tom Hughes for sure never said this. Your mind sure does come up with some wild thoughts at times Gerry. But let's stick with the facts of what we are saying here and not your imagination. Stick with the words. OR could you please explain to me how you get this thought from either Tom Hughes or Redwood. Talk about putting words in ones mouth !!

Have you not said that you "will continue to deny God, and willfully practice sin?" And isn't the very subject of this thread? being saved in one's sins? If a believer does this, how is he/she different from someone who has never heard of Christ?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I'm sorry, but until I can read the whole article, I'm not going to make any conclusions about his position, so please spare me the snippets.

Gerry

If you don't like this quote ... try reading some of Ellen White's compilations. They will quote one small sentence and you have no idea where it came from and what was the context or who it was written to. Just amazing. But we accept her snippets when in book form. Go figure.

That's why I like to go to the original source when I have a question about the quote in the compilation.

Gerry

[melvin mccarty]

No I don't accept her snippets in book form. I believe those compilations are a bad mistake.

mel

[Woody]

The issue Gerry is that you judge me by your definitions of the words I use even after I explain what I mean. However you ignore the explanations of how I believe and place your personal value to the way I use the words. This would be called taking out of context and twisting ones words. You would prefer to have me be the villian. And so I will be your punching bag if you want. But it is a misrepresentation of my beliefs that you are punching.

[Gerr]

The issue Gerry is that you judge me by your definitions of the words I use even after I explain what I mean. However you ignore the explanations of how I believe and place your personal value to the way I use the words. This would be called taking out of context and twisting ones words. You would prefer to have me be the villian. And so I will be your punching bag if you want. But it is a misrepresentation of my beliefs that you are punching.

MY definitions? Please look up in the dictionary what "willful", "deliberate", "practice", & "always" mean, and see whose definition is out of step.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

"The Holy Spirit is not our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God,is. Good works are the result of the salvation we receive as a free gift, not the cause of it.If we can only be saved FROM our sins and not IN our sins, we are all doomed. We will not be liberated from our carnal nature until glorification, so until then Paul's cry "Oh wretched man that I am" still applies to even the most dedicated Christian.

Even our prayers - while in church - and while we are on our best behavior - are defiled and unworthy. If our prayers and worship are defiled, what does that say about our supposed obedience? " Pastor Tom Hughes

What I thought was good here was to point out that we are all 'wretched'. We have to be saved IN our sins ... because we all sin even after the Holy Spirit is IN us. But PTL ... the Holy Spirit is not our Savior ... Jesus is.

I think this is a beautiful message. It is clearly the Gospel. What can WE bring to the table? NOT much. Even our prayers and worship are defiled. Christ is first , last and ALL and everything.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"The Holy Spirit is not our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God,is. Good works are the result of the salvation we receive as a free gift, not the cause of it.If we can only be saved FROM our sins and not IN our sins, we are all doomed. We will not be liberated from our carnal nature until glorification, so until then Paul's cry "Oh wretched man that I am" still applies to even the most dedicated Christian.

Even our prayers - while in church - and while we are on our best behavior - are defiled and unworthy. If our prayers and worship are defiled, what does that say about our supposed obedience? " Pastor Tom Hughes

After saying what you just said, how can you claim that I am misrepresenting your position? You believe in "once saved always saved." You have said, "I continue to deny God, and willfully sin." You claim we are saved IN our sins. Where have I misrepresented your views?

I care not what you or Tom Hughes say. If we are saved in our sins, then I can be a whoremonger, serial killer, idolater, etc. believer, and still be saved? The Bible can't be any clearer when it says:

[color:red]"No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow believer in Christ). 1 Jn 3:6-9 Amp

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 NKJ

And in case you think that's a misprint, here is what Paul said to the Ephesians:

"But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousn ess, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that NO fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph 5:3-7 NKJ

Sooooooo, in view of these passages, where can you or Tom Hughes take comfort that a believer can be a practicing idolater, adulterer, thief, coveter, etc. etc. and remain an heir to the kingdom?

If believers remain "wretched" even after He has saved them, then what are they saved from?

[color:red]"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors - not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage [wretchedness] again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit what we are children of God, and if children, then heirs - heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ,...." Rom 8:12-17 NKJ

It is NOT good news if after Jesus found and saved me I am still wretched!!!!!!!!!!

Wretched?

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own SPECIAL PEOPLE, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness [wretchedness] into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are NOW the PEOPLE OF GOD, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." 1 Pe 2:9-,10 NKJ

"Take no man's explanation of Scripture, whatever his position, but go to the Bible and search for the truth yourselves." TM 155.

Quote:

I think this is a beautiful message. It is clearly the Gospel. What can WE bring to the table? NOT much. Even our prayers and worship are defiled. Christ is first , last and ALL and everything.

If I remain wretched in my wretched sins even after Jesus has found and saved me, then that is CLEARLY NOT good news!!!

Gerry

[olger]

Here is another verse that pertains to this discussion.

"But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses" (Psalm 68:21).

oG

[JeriAnne]

I like to put it this way:

"YES I have been saved! And each day I am saved a little more!"

But once I had a Old Baptist Preacher ask me "What did you do, Take the Installment plan?"

[John317]

Cast your burden upon the LORD and He will sustain you;

He will never allow the righteous to be shaken. Ps. 55:22

"One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption[/b]." PP 409

"Had Moses and Aaron been cherishing self-esteem or indulging a passionate spirit in the face of divine warning and reproof, their guilt would have been far greater. But they were not chargeable with willful or deliberate sin; they had been overcome by a sudden temptation, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment." PP 419

"Those who are teaching this doctrine today [the doctrine that "by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word"] have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity."--Signs of the Times, February 25, 1897.

[JeriAnne]

BUT it is the ROBE of CHRIST's RIGHTEOUSNESS that changes us!

SALVATION is about KNOWING WHOSE ROBE YOU ARE WEARING!!!

IT will do its work in its time!!!!!!

TOO many SDA's are uncertain about the peacefulness of the SALVATION happening every day UNDER that robe!!!!!

[John317]

BUT it is the ROBE of CHRIST's RIGHTEOUSNESS that changes us!

SALVATION is about KNOWING WHOSE ROBE YOU ARE WEARING!!!

IT will do its work in its time!!!!!!

TOO many SDA's are uncertain about the peacefulness of the SALVATION happening every day UNDER that robe!!!!!

I agree with you.

Some falsely teach that Ellen White denied the assurance given believers in the Gospel.

But this is not true. Ellen White is not warning against the believer's certainty of one's present standing with God. She is speaking against the presumptuous "once saved, always saved" teaching of eternal security by those who claim "I am saved" while continuing to transgress God's law. Here is Ellen White's statement quoted in the video by Mr. Martin, with the words he omitted italicized:

"Those who are teaching this doctrine today [the doctrine that "by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word"] have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity."--Signs of the Times, February 25, 1897. [The reference cited on the video (February 8, 1897) is incorrect.]

Resources: Here are additional quotations that show Ellen White's balance between assurance and false-confidence:

"Each one of you may know for yourself that you have a living Saviour, that he is your helper and your God. You need not stand where you say, 'I do not know whether I am saved.' Do you believe in Christ as your personal Saviour? If you do, then rejoice."--General Conference Bulletin, April 10, 1901.

"Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's word declares, 'Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried.' Dan. 12:10. Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life. (James 1:12.)"--Christ's Object Lessons, p. 155. (Emphasis supplied.)

[John317]

BUT it is the ROBE of CHRIST's RIGHTEOUSNESS that changes us!....TOO many SDA's are uncertain about the peacefulness of the SALVATION happening every day UNDER that robe!!!!!

What you've said above is totally true. I'm agreeing with you, and so did Ellen White. The robe of Christ's righteousness is not a permission to continue doing what we know is wrong. The robe actually changes the life as we continually place our confidence in Christ. If I put my focus on myself, I'd despair and give up.

"Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the world. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world.

All these expect to be saved by Christ's death, while they refuse to live His self-sacrificing life. They extol the riches of free grace, and attempt to cover themselves with an appearance of righteousness, hoping to screen their defects of character; but their efforts will be of no avail in the day of God.

The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin. A man may be a law-breaker in heart; yet if he commits no outward act of transgression, he may be regarded by the world as possessing great integrity. But God's law looks into the secrets of the heart. Every act is judged by the motives that prompt it. Only that which is in accord with the principles of God's law will stand in the judgment.

God is love. He has shown that love in the gift of Christ. When "He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life," He withheld nothing from His purchased possession. (John 3:16.) He gave all heaven, from which we may draw strength and efficiency, that we be not repulsed or overcome by our great adversary. But the love of God does not lead Him to excuse sin. He did not excuse it in Satan; He did not excuse it in Adam or in Cain; nor will He excuse it in any other of the children of men. He will not connive at our sins or overlook our defects of character. He expects us to overcome in His name. COL 315, 316

[Woody]

Thanks JeriAnne and John317 ... Both of you have provided some good and accurate thoughts on the subject. Good discussions.

[Woody]

I like to put it this way:

"YES I have been saved! And each day I am saved a little more!"

But once I had a Old Baptist Preacher ask me "What did you do, Take the Installment plan?"

I liked this .... for yes we are both saved and on the installment plan. For we will continue to grow and overcome sin until glorification when it will all be complete.

[LifeHiscost]

If sin takes a person away from Christ, how then can He save a person who wants to keep up that barrier? It would be un-christlike to save a person against his wishes!

Gerry

That's one reason why we are encouraged from the Word to pray for each other, that Jesus might have permission to do for another that which He is prohibited from doing while there are none to give that right.

While that might appear to take away the right of the rebellious to continue in their self-destructive ways, we have the Word for it's validity.

"For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." James 2:13 NASB

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16 KJV

Regards!

[Planey]

...that Jesus might have permission to do for another that which He is prohibited from doing while there are none to give that right.

I'm sorry that this is off topic, but where in the Bible do you get justification for this idea? I've heard it mentioned before, about us "giving permission" to Jesus or the Holy Spirit when we pray an intercessory prayer.

So is this scriptural or not?

Graeme

[Robert]

But being saved from our sins and not in our sins does not mean we never sin.

How can I make you understand? Let me see....

Well, Romans 3:23! To fall short doesn't mean to sin/fall now and then, but to never reach the loftiest demands of God's law. In other words although a believer grows (if he/she has the assurance of salvation) that believer is failing to fully live Christ's unselfish life.