"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's a contradiction!

Answer me this: What is the purpose of God examining our works in the judgment? I bet you really don't know! [/quote']

It's the works of Jesus that are judged. The only works of ours that are judged is to determine if we have accepted HIS works in our place. That is our work.

Oh where oh where has John gone? Where in the world is John 317?

Actually, you are not (in my understanding) very far wrong in this, if you consider the fact that IF WE TRULY ACCEPT CHRIST AND HIS WORKS IN OUR PLACE, we will produce the same works that Christ did. We do not do those works in an effort to earn salvation but because of gratitude for God's love and salvation.

It is comparable to the experience of Israel when they were saved from Egyptian slavery. Israel did nothing to earn God's salvation. God did not save them because of something they did. Rather, God saved them because of their helpless condition, and THEN He gave them His law and commanded that they keep it. They were to keep it out of thankfulness for what He had ALREADY done in saving them, and His works should have led them to see the full and complete salvation that God had planned for them. But they didn't. Instead, the vast majority of them died in the desert and they never went on to experience the ultimate "rest" of God. How foolish of them if they had thought, "We don't have to do anything because we can't possibly earn God's salvation. All works or talk of works are legalism." When works are the product of the Holy Spirit in the life and faith in God, they are not legalistic. Rather, they are the product of a heart remade after the image of Jesus Christ, a heart on which the law of God is being inscribed.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

... Satan says that in order to be fair and to fulfill His justice, God cannot show mercy and allow sinners to be saved. An examination of the works demonstrates that God is right to save sinners.

EGW: "Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Ellen states that Satan is right!

You have just stated a half-truth, Robert. She says, "He [satan] has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these before God in the most exaggerated light..." (GC 618).

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He's right in stating that the best of us are still self-centered, selfish sinners. The best of us!

Where does Ellen White state that all Christians are still self-centered, selfish sinners at the time that she is describing, just before Christ returns, and after human probation has closed?

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Since Satan is right, what is the reason for the investigative judgment? Try again!

Indeed, Robert! Let us study what both the Bible and Ellen White say about this subject, the purpose of the Investigative Judgment.

Now, read the full context of the thought you have quoted above, and see if it makes any difference in the meaning, as far as the truthfulness of Satan is concerned. You are mistaken, I believe, to say that Ellen White taught that Satan was "right." Satan was only right in saying the saints were great sinners. But Satan, as always, was lying about many important things related to this question. Satan conveniently neglects to mention the fact that the saints are changed by the grace of God, have repented of their sins and become commandment-keepers and not intentional, willful commandment-breakers. (We're not talking about absolute sinlessness and the necessity of earning salvation by perfection. Rather, as said before, we are talking about lives demonstrating love and faith toward God and loyalty toward God's government.)

Please read carefully, especially those portions I've highlighted or underlined:

GC 618-626:

Satan had accused Jacob before the angels of God, claiming the right to destroy him because of his sin; he had moved upon Esau to march against him; and during the patriarch's long night of wrestling, Satan endeavored to force upon him a sense of his guilt in order to discourage him and break his hold upon God. Jacob was driven almost to despair; but he knew that without help from heaven he must perish. He had [color:#CC0000]sincerely repented of his great sin, and he appealed to the mercy of God. He would not be turned from his purpose, but held fast the Angel and urged his petition with earnest, agonizing cries until he prevailed.

As Satan influenced Esau to march against Jacob, so he will stir up the wicked to destroy God's people in the time of trouble. And as he accused Jacob, he will urge his accusations against the people of God. He numbers the world as his subjects; but the little company who keep the commandments of God are resisting his supremacy. If he could blot them from the earth, his triumph would be complete. He sees that holy angels are guarding them, and he infers that their sins have been pardoned; but he does not know that their cases have been decided in the sanctuary above. He has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these before God in the most exaggerated light, representing this people to be just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. He declares that the Lord cannot in justice forgive their sins and yet destroy him and his angels. He claims them as his prey and demands that they be given into his hands to destroy.

As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God.

Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached.

On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them.

They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me."

Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.

Satan leads many to believe that God will overlook their unfaithfulness in the minor affairs of life; but the Lord shows in His dealings with Jacob that He will in no wise sanction or tolerate evil. All who endeavor to excuse or conceal their sins, and permit them to remain upon the books of heaven, unconfessed and unforgiven, will be overcome by Satan. The more exalted their profession and the more honorable the position which they hold, the more grievous is their course in the sight of God and the more sure the triumph of their great adversary. Those who delay a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble or at any subsequent time. The case of all such is hopeless.

Those professed Christians who come up to that last fearful conflict unprepared will, in their despair, confess their sins in words of burning anguish, while the wicked exult over their distress. These confessions are of the same character as was that of Esau or of Judas. Those who make them, lament the result of transgression, but not its guilt. They feel no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They acknowledge their sin, through fear of punishment; but, like Pharaoh of old, they would return to their defiance of Heaven should the judgments be removed.

Jacob's history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.

The season of distress and anguish before us will require a faith that can endure weariness, delay, and hunger--a faith that will not faint though severely tried. The period of probation is granted to all to prepare for that time. Jacob prevailed because he was persevering and determined. His victory is an evidence of the power of importunate prayer. All who will lay hold of God's promises, as he did, and be as earnest and persevering as he was, will succeed as he succeeded. Those who are unwilling to deny self, to agonize before God, to pray long and earnestly for His blessing, will not obtain it. Wrestling with God--how few know what it is! How few have ever had their souls drawn out after God with intensity of desire until every power is on the stretch. When waves of despair which no language can express sweep over the suppliant, how few cling with unyielding faith to the promises of God.

Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement.

We should now acquaint ourselves with God by proving His promises. Angels record every prayer that is earnest and sincere. We should rather dispense with selfish gratifications than neglect communion with God. The deepest poverty, the greatest self-denial, with His approval, is better than riches, honors, ease, and friendship without it. We must take time to pray. If we allow our minds to be absorbed by worldly interests, the Lord may give us time by removing from us our idols of gold, of houses, or of fertile lands.

The young would not be seduced into sin if they would refuse to enter any path save that upon which they could ask God's blessing. If the messengers who bear the last solemn warning to the world would pray for the blessing of God, not in a cold, listless, lazy manner, but fervently and in faith, as did Jacob, they would find many places where they could say: "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. They would be accounted of heaven as princes, having power to prevail with God and with men.

The "time of trouble, such as never was," is soon to open upon us; and we shall need an experience which we do not now possess and which many are too indolent to obtain. It is often the case that trouble is greater in anticipation than in reality; but this is not true of the crisis before us. The most vivid presentation cannot reach the magnitude of the ordeal. In that time of trial, every soul must stand for himself before God. "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job" were in the land, "as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." Ezekiel 14:20.

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls.

The apostle John in vision heard a loud voice in heaven exclaiming: "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12. Fearful are the scenes which call forth this exclamation from the heavenly voice. The wrath of Satan increases as his time grows short, and his work of deceit and destruction will reach its culmination in the time of trouble.

Fearful sights of a supernatural character will soon be revealed in the heavens, in token of the power of miracle-working demons. The spirits of devils will go forth to the kings of the earth and to the whole world, to fasten them in deception, and urge them on to unite with Satan in his last struggle against the government of heaven. By these agencies, rulers and subjects will be alike deceived. Persons will arise pretending to be Christ Himself, and claiming the title and worship which belong to the world's Redeemer. They will perform wonderful miracles of healing and will profess to have revelations from heaven contradicting the testimony of the Scriptures.

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: "Christ has come! Christ has come!" The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed. He declares that those who persist in keeping holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name by refusing to listen to his angels sent to them with light and truth. This is the strong, almost overmastering delusion. Like the Samaritans who were deceived by Simon Magus, the multitudes, from the least to the greatest, give heed to these sorceries, saying: This is "the great power of God." Acts 8:10.

But the people of God will not be misled. The teachings of this false christ are not in accordance with the Scriptures. His blessing is pronounced upon the worshipers of the beast and his image, the very class upon whom the Bible declares that God's unmingled wrath shall be poured out.

And, furthermore, Satan is not permitted to counterfeit the manner of Christ's advent. The Saviour has warned His people against deception upon this point, and has clearly foretold the manner of His second coming. "There shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. . . . Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth; behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:24-27, 31; 25:31; Revelation 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. This coming there is no possibility of counterfeiting. It will be universally known--witnessed by the whole world.

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? Satan will, if possible, prevent them from obtaining a preparation to stand in that day. He will so arrange affairs as to hedge up their way, entangle them with earthly treasures, cause them to carry a heavy, wearisome burden, that

their hearts may be overcharged with the cares of this life and the day of trial may come upon them as a thief.

[Robert]

Where do you think the new direction and new heart and new mind come from, if not from the Holy Spirit?

The man of Romans 7 had the law written on his heart, yet he was failing!

"For in my inner being I delight in God’s law [that's the law written on the heart]; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind [where the law is written] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members."

King David had the law written on his mind, but one day he was overlooking the city from his palace and he saw a woman bathing. What happened? He sinned!

He had the law written in his heart, but in and of itself a knowledge of God's love didn't help. He didn't surrender his will ("the law of my mind") to the Holy Spirit and he sinned.....

[Robert]

Satan leaves out the fact that through God's grace and their own efforts empowered by the Spirit, they are overcomers.

[Robert]

What purpose or role does the law of God have in the investigative judgment? Is the law, in your view, completely irrelevant as far as the lives of the saints are concerned?

The law does two things:

1] It demands perfect, unblemished obedience.

2] But to the sinner it demands eternal death.

In the I.J. God will use the fruit of the gospel we have accepted to prove not our righteousness, but our faith.

Those who have the assurance of salvation and have accepted the gospel (the truth as it is "in Christ") will produce genuine fruit, i.e., the fruit produced through such a relationship will be free of "self". These believers will bear fruit from a motive that is free of hope of a reward or fear of punishment.

So it's not the amount of good works that God examines, but rather the origin of those works. Do they come from one standing on the platform of righteousness by faith alone, or do they come from a "fair show of the flesh?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

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-CT- Joshua and the Angel

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But just because I agree here doesn't mean I agree elsewhere....So don't go there!

Don't go where' date=' Robert? Not sure what you mean. Do you mean you do not want me to quote other things in Ellen White's writings on this subject? [/quote']

It means I don't buy into everything she states....So don't hold me to all of EGW.

Rob

[Robert]

You have just stated a half-truth, Robert. She says, "He [satan] has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these before God in the most exaggerated light..." (GC 618).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Satan leaves out the fact that through God's grace and their own efforts empowered by the Spirit, they are overcomers.

Sorry, in the end it can't count because God's own law demands perfection...not near perfection ...not falling short, but fully measuring up.

We're not talking about earning one's salvation by works of the law here. Remember we're talking about justified believers in Christ. The Holy Spirit applies to our actual life the righteousness of Christ that God gives to us as a gift in justification. That is what Romans 8: 4 is referring to.

Quote:

"He who overcomes and obeys my commands [NIV--"does my will"] to the end, I will give him authority over the nations" Rev. 2:26.

Quote:

You've added "obeys my commands"! That's salvation by law.

See the Amplified translation.

It is talking about doing God's will. Are you saying that God's will has nothing to do with God's or Christ's commandments? Do you deny that if we are doing God's will, we will be obeying His and Christ's commandments?

It is referring here to the deeds that God desires or the deeds that go with faith. So it is talking about works of faith, not works of the law. How did Christ live his life-- by works of faith or works of the law? Christ said we are to do the same works he did. Rev. 2: 26 is talking about those works of faith. Remember Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

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You mean the second I branch into what you interpret to be "legalistic nonsense."

Quote:

May I remind you of what both Paul and Jesus stated concerning your law performance?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Matt 5:48 "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Who is trying to earn their salvation by obedience, Robert? I thought we already agreed a long time ago that no one can earn God's favor or justification by law-obedience.

In your thinking, is the only reason anyone would want to obey God's commandments that they are trying to earn God's favor?

Isn't that just a bit legalistic, to think that any obedience to God or Christ is due to a desire to manipulate God into giving us Christ's righteousness?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What purpose or role does the law of God have in the investigative judgment? Is the law, in your view, completely irrelevant as far as the lives of the saints are concerned?

The law does two things:

1] It demands perfect, unblemished obedience.

2] But to the sinner it demands eternal death.

In the I.J. God will use the fruit of the gospel we have accepted to prove not our righteousness, but our faith.

Those who have the assurance of salvation and have accepted the gospel (the truth as it is "in Christ") will produce genuine fruit, i.e., the fruit produced through such a relationship will be free of "self". These believers will bear fruit from a motive that is free of hope of a reward or fear of punishment.

So it's not the amount of good works that God examines, but rather the origin of those works. Do they come from one standing on the platform of righteousness by faith alone, or do they come from a "fair show of the flesh?

Hey, I can agree wholeheartedly with you on this, Robert. It's exactly what I believe and am saying. But there is more to the purposes or results of the Investigative Judgment than this. But you are right insofar as the works being tested to see the reasons for them and to show whether they are works of faith or works of self.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Is it in Prophets and Kings or in GC or in both?

-BC- PK

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But just because I agree here doesn't mean I agree elsewhere....So don't go there!

If she is wrong where you don't agree with her, how do you know that you are not wrong also where you do agree with her?

Gerry

[Robert]

We're not talking about earning one's salvation by works of the law here.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

But just because I agree here doesn't mean I agree elsewhere....So don't go there!

If she is wrong where you don't agree with her' date=' how do you know that you are not wrong also where you do agree with her?

Gerry [/quote']

Gerry...again...I use EGW in talking to Adventist. She isn't my pope.

[Robert]

"Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ."

What's wrong with the phrase, "making the atonement for us"?

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his [agape] love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Paul tells us that we have already "received the atonement". But it seems that EGW states that God is still "making the atonement for us"....Complete? or uncomplete? The latter would require salvation by works to make it complete. Hence legalism abounds !

[Planey]

Apparently when Satan accused God, saying nobody could obey His Law, he was correct then?

Graeme

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If she is wrong where you don't agree with her' date=' how do you know that you are not wrong also where you do agree with her?

Gerry [/quote']

Quote:

Gerry...again...I use EGW in talking to Adventist. She isn't my pope.

In other words, it seems to me, you are saying you just use her whenever you find it convenient to prove your point. For instance, you like the fact that she says there will be people in heaven who have never heard the gospel, even though there is nothing in the Bible about that. So if she agrees with you, you apparently have no trouble using her, but if she does not agree with you, then you refer to her as "legalistic," "pope," etc. Is this true or am I totally wrong?

[praise Him]

Quote:

When men venture to criticize the Word of God they venture on sacred, holy ground and had better fear and tremble and hide their wisdom as foolishness. God sets no man to pronounce judgment on His Word, selecting some things as inspired and discrediting others as uninspired. The testimonies have been treated in the same way; but God is not in this. {5MR 55.2}

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

"Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ."

What's wrong with the phrase, "making the atonement for us"?

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his [agape] love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Paul tells us that we have already "received the atonement". But it seems that EGW states that God is still "making the atonement for us"....Complete? or uncomplete? The latter would require salvation by works to make it complete. Hence legalism abounds !

Would you like to discuss the subject of the atonement in depth? It's an important one.

The sacrifice of Christ-- that is, the shedding of His precious blood, the dying-- was a once-for-all, unrepeatable event. That was full and complete. But that is only part of the atonement. It is illustrated in the sanctuary service. The killing of the lamb-- which was a type of the shedding of Christ's blood on calvary's cross-- was only a part of the atonement. The blood had to be applied in the holy places, didn't they? That was also an essential aspect of the atonement. What Christ is doing now in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as was his death.

[Stan]

Someone should invite Tom Hughes here

[Robert]

Apparently when Satan accused God, saying nobody could obey His Law, he was correct then?

Graeme

I didn't know that he actually said this. Would you be so kind to give me that Bible quote?

Robert

[Robert]

you like the fact that she says there will be people in heaven who have never heard the gospel, even though there is nothing in the Bible about that.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What's wrong with the phrase, "making the atonement for us"?

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his [agape'] love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Paul tells us that we have already "received the atonement". But it seems that EGW states that God is still "making the atonement for us"....Complete? or uncomplete? The latter would require salvation by works to make it complete. Hence legalism abounds !

Would you like to discuss the subject of the atonement in depth? It's an important one.

No, it's not important to me. I have assurance because by faith I stand complete "in Christ"! I have received the atonement. I have been reconciled to the Father by Christ's doing and dying. By faith I have accepted the truth as it is "in Christ". At the 2nd coming I will fully experience and receive what is true of me "in Christ".

Right now I am both a sinner, but "in Christ" 100% righteous. At the resurrection I will actually be righteous. One is by faith the other is by reality. I am waiting for the reality. In the meantime as long as my faith remains in the Beloved I am saved. But I am also being saved because ultimately, until I actually receive my glorified life, I have yet to fully receive the benefits of Christ's complete atonement. Therefore I was saved "in Christ" some 2000 years ago. I received that truth and as long as I have Christ I am saved. But I must keep my faith in Him and therefore I am being saved, while saved, until I receive what is true of me "in Christ."

[Robert]

Quote:

When men venture to criticize the Word of God they venture on sacred, holy ground and had better fear and tremble and hide their wisdom as foolishness. God sets no man to pronounce judgment on His Word, selecting some things as inspired and discrediting others as uninspired. The testimonies have been treated in the same way; but God is not in this. {5MR 55.2}

You are placing the Testimonies on equal billing with the Bible. This is the mark of a cult!

[Robert]

What Christ is doing now in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as was his death.

And what is He doing?

Col 1:21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, [Eph says the same: "we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath...."]verse 22 "but He has now reconciled us [where?] in his body of flesh by his death, [why?] in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before Him [God], 23 provided that you continue [to keep the whole law...No?]

23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Notice that "in Christ" you are "holy and blameless"! By faith Christ presents you perfect in Himself.

[praise Him]

Could you please precisely define what a cult is? It is very easy to throw stigmatized names around but we need to define exactly what is meant. It was earlier posted that we cannot understand God's agape love. I find the Bible says different.

Quote:

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Agreeing that you can use sister White's writings when they agree with your position and reject them when you don't like what they say completely destroys any credibility. If she was not inspired then she has no credibility at all! From your position you then are using a non credible source as verification of your position!

[Robert]

Could you please precisely define what a cult is?