"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[Robert]

Give me an example of sin your body commits apart from the mind. Or do you think that Satan can force us to commit sin?

Romans chapter 7 last part....

[praise Him]

The body can never commit sin apart from the mind... the mind MUST consent before the body can act. It is called yielding to temptation. What Rom. 7 is talking about is the war between the flesh and the mind. The carnal flesh controls the mind, life in the Spirit is lived with control of the flesh by the mind, through the Power of the Holy Spirit. There can be no "separate" acts of the mind and body, You are controlled by one or the other.

Quote:

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

More later, gotta run!

[LifeHiscost]

I hope this may help clarify the difference between willful sin and sin that is not willful.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us..."

Deliberate, unintentional, or by osmosis, the sin that is not washed away by the blood of Jesus, is enough to keep us out of the Kingdom of heaven.

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ" Ephesians 2:13 KJV

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

1 Peter 1:2 KJV

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, I do agree with this, provided we are both assuming there is sincere confession of the sin and repentance.

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 16

-CT- Accepted in Christ

-PR- 04

-PG- 107

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient , his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

Yes, I agree with this, but you keep speaking of these things as if someone were saying that faith or repentance and confession is meritorious. No one is saying that. We're not talking about earning salvation. It goes back to the discussion we had before: that while we don't earn salvation by works of faith and obedience, yet nevertheless no one will be saved without obedience and works of faith. Our faith and repentance don't earn anything but they are the channel through which we receive God's forgiveness and love. Someone has rightly compared faith to the hand that reaches out to accept God's gifts. Your hand doesn't earn anything but if you don't put out your hand, God can't give you the gifts He has for you.

What are TI, CN, PR, and PG? They're not listed among the publications that I have. Could you give their full titles?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Give me an example of sin your body commits apart from the mind. Or do you think that Satan can force us to commit sin?

Romans chapter 7 last part....

OK, I thought you might point to that, but give me an actual example in life where you have seen that the body commits sin apart from the mind.

I don't think Paul is saying that our bodies themselves commit sin apart from any choice or decision by the brain. He is talking about the law of sin, not that the body itself does sinful things without mind. It is talking about the desires and appetites of the body, not the actions of the body. The body can only act when the mind orders it to. However, when we do not have the Spirit and are not letting the Spirit lead us, it is very easy to let our body's desire determine what we do. But it takes the mind to make that choice to surrender to the body. I believe that is what Saint Paul is describing in the last part of Romans 7.

[Robert]

don't think Paul is saying that our bodies themselves commit sin apart from any choice or decision by the brain. He is talking about the law of sin, not that the body itself does sinful things without mind. It is talking about the desires and appetites of the body, not the actions of the body. The body can only act when the mind orders it to.

Paul didn't say that his body took over his mind! He said "the law of sin" (the principle of self) drives the mind! It gets its way, unless one surrenders his mind to the HS.

Rob

[Robert]

while we don't earn salvation by works of faith and obedience, yet nevertheless no one will be saved without obedience and works of faith.

That's a contradiction!

Answer me this: What is the purpose of God examining our works in the judgment? I bet you really don't know!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

don't think Paul is saying that our bodies themselves commit sin apart from any choice or decision by the brain. He is talking about the law of sin, not that the body itself does sinful things without mind. It is talking about the desires and appetites of the body, not the actions of the body. The body can only act when the mind orders it to.

Paul didn't say that his body took over his mind! He said "the law of sin" (the principle of self) drives the mind! It gets its way, unless one surrenders his mind to the HS.

Rob

I don't disagree with you there. But, then, what is the answer to the question, where do we have an example either in the Bible or in your personal experience that the body itself, alone, commits sin, that is, apart from the mind?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

while we don't earn salvation by works of faith and obedience, yet nevertheless no one will be saved without obedience and works of faith.

That's a contradiction!

Answer me this: What is the purpose of God examining our works in the judgment? I bet you really don't know!

It's the works of Jesus that are judged. The only works of ours that are judged is to determine if we have accepted HIS works in our place. That is our work.

Oh where oh where has John gone? Where in the world is John 317?

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- While we don't earn salvation by works of faith and obedience, yet nevertheless no one will be saved without obedience and works of faith.

Quote:

ROBERT-- That's a contradiction!

Such things are ordinarily referred to as a paradox. Yes, it does appear to be a contradiction, yet both the Bible and Ellen White teach this. Ellen White, in fact, uses that very language. I am sure you remember it. She makes a similar statement in Steps To Christ as well as in a number of other places. Do you believe that it is impossible for paradoxes to be true? See: http://brainden.com/paradoxes.htm

Quote:

ROBERT-- Answer me this: What is the purpose of God examining our works in the judgment? I bet you really don't know!

It's done for a number of reasons.

Naturally, God Himself does not need a judgment or investigation of our lives and works in order to know who will be saved ad who will be saved. The lives of people are examined in the Investigative Judgement for the benefit of the onlooking universe, including the angels and other intelligent beings, in order to lay open the heart and lives of the saved. Concomitantly, God allows us to undergo suffering and various tests in life to reveal our motives for doing right, all for the purpose of showing whether we serve God merely for reward or from a self-centered motive, or whether we serve and trust God out of love for the His truth and righteousness.

(The Old Testament saints served God without knowing as clearly as we do about the rewards of the righteous. They did not have all the promises about eternal life that we do. They simply knew that God has proved that he can be trusted to do the right thing.)

An additional reason is that other intelligent beings have a real interest in how God is dealing with the sin problem, and of course they are interested in seeing what their future neighbors are like. Is God going to ask them to trust us based merely on His say-so? No, God will allow them to see the evidence that the people He saves have been changed and can be trusted in heaven.

There is also the reason that the judgment, and the close examination of people's lives, demonstrates that Satan is wrong when he accuses God of being unfair in not destroying everyone. Satan says that in order to be fair and to fulfill His justice, God cannot show mercy and allow sinners to be saved. An examination of the works demonstrates that God is right to save sinners. It shows God to be righteous and worthy of our love, trust, admiration and worship, and why Satan and his followers are wrong and deserve to be destroyed.

The last generations prove that God's laws can be obeyed by humans motivated by love and faith and empowered by the Holy Spirit. This disproves Satan's claim and accusation that God is unjust to require humans to obey a law that no one can possibly keep.

Finally the judgement clarifies the reasons that those who are lost are not among the saved. It answers all the questions why some are lost and why others are saved.

In sum, the judgment resolves all the issues related to God's reputation (which includes the reputation of His people, who have often committed sin), and demonstrates without question that agape-love is the foundation of God's government.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's a contradiction!

Answer me this: What is the purpose of God examining our works in the judgment? I bet you really don't know! [/quote']

It's the works of Jesus that are judged. The only works of ours that are judged is to determine if we have accepted HIS works in our place. That is our work.

Oh where oh where has John gone? Where in the world is John 317?

Redwood, there is a lot more involved than showing we accept His works in our place. See my post # 166988, which is the one just before this post. See also GC, "What Is the Sanctuary?" , "In the Holy of Holies," "Facing Life's Record," and "The Origin of Evil." Also study the subject of the judgment in the book, Bible Readings For the Home. The Silencing of Satan the Gospel in the Investigative Judgment by Bradley R. Williams, a book you can order at the ABC, presents the Bible evidence and reasons.

I was asleep until about an hour ago. I can't stay on CA 24 hours a day, much as I might prefer to. I have a life outside of CA, believe it or not. For instance, in a few hours I am going into Palm Springs to meet a friend for dinner. A friend who made this site: http://homepage.mac.com/ronaldrobertgrantham/PhotoAlbum1.html/ Great photographs from all around the world, including Poland, China, and India.

[Robert]

where do we have an example either in the Bible or in your personal experience that the body itself, alone, commits sin, that is, apart from the mind?

The mind controls the body....The "law of sin" (like the law of gravity) controls the mind, which in turn controls the body, unless the mind is surrender to the HS.

[Robert]

... Satan says that in order to be fair and to fulfill His justice, God cannot show mercy and allow sinners to be saved. An examination of the works demonstrates that God is right to save sinners.

EGW: "Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Ellen states that Satan is right! He's right in stating that the best of us are still self-centered, selfish sinners. The best of us!

Since Satan is right, what is the reason for the investigative judgment? Try again!

[Robert]

.... what is the reason for the investigative judgment? Try again!

Clearly it is not to show who has been naughty and nice. In other words it is not about who is keeping the law. Even worse, it is not about those who did their best and Christ makes up the difference.

Then what's the reason?

Answer: There is an accuser and his accusation is right on the money:

"Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit"....

And in agreement with God's law, Satan states that, "Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

In both points he is right! So the question is, "how can God maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns us and yet take believing sinners to heaven?"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

where do we have an example either in the Bible or in your personal experience that the body itself, alone, commits sin, that is, apart from the mind?

The mind controls the body....The "law of sin" (like the law of gravity) controls the mind, which in turn controls the body, unless the mind is surrender to the HS.

Yes, the mind controls the body, so that when an individual sins, it is not the body sinning without the mind; it is the whole person sinning. But never do you have the body sinning apart from the mind. It's true that many people let their body's appetites lead them around by the nose, but their body is not committing the sin-- the mind commits it by surrendering to the body. God is in the business of changing the mind, giving us new motives and new desires that are in harmony with Him, and it happens as we continuously commit ourselves to Him.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

... Satan says that in order to be fair and to fulfill His justice, God cannot show mercy and allow sinners to be saved. An examination of the works demonstrates that God is right to save sinners.

EGW: "Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Ellen states that Satan is right! He's right in stating that the best of us are still self-centered, selfish sinners. The best of us!

Since Satan is right, what is the reason for the investigative judgment? Try again!

Satan tells half-truths, Robert. He always has and he always will, right up to the moment he is utterly destroyed.

Let's discuss this issue thoroughly. It is very important to understand what is going on here and what the Bible and Ellen White have to say about it. First off, please cite the source of the above quote.

Is it in Prophets and Kings or in GC or in both?

[Robert]

New direction...new heart...new converted mind, in and of itself, can't defeat the flesh. Only surrender to the HS. You still don't get it. Maybe that's why you insist that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted?

[Robert]

"Satan tells half-truths, Robert."

[Robert]

Is it in Prophets and Kings or in GC or in both?

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

But just because I agree here doesn't mean I agree elsewhere....So don't go there!

[Robert]

Let's discuss this issue thoroughly.

Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

On the surface these two statements seem diametrically opposed. However, a close look reveals that Paul & James are dealing with two different issues.

Paul is writing of justification by "works of the law" while James is writing of "works".

Paul denies that anyone will ever get to heaven by keeping the law, for ALL believers are falling short of God's goodness. Remember that the law is more than just ten brief rules, it is spiritual.

On the other hand, James is stating that genuine justification by faith produces a change in the believer so that fruit is seen in the life. No, it does not fulfill ALL the requirements of the law to love totally selflessly, but it does witness to our relationship to Christ.

The question is does God use our works in the investigative judgment? Let's see:

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” 1 John 5:28,29

Yes, God does use our works - but it’s not what you might be thinking. He does not compare our bad works to our good ones and the pile that’s the greatest decides our destiny. God is not interested if we measure up to the law’s demands (for none of us do). He is interested in the fruit that comes from a relationship with Him, i.e., is it genuine or is it self-righteous?

Bad fruit, i.e., self-righteous fruit, comes a legalistic relationship – one where the believer sees heaven through a set on rules. He sees God as demanding – a tyrant. He sees a bloodthirsty God (although he will not admit it) – an Old Covenant god who is more than willing to crush the life out of you. The fruits produced from such a hellish religion produces “evil fruit” that will condemn the believer in the judgment. This group is seen in the following verses:

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (sin – i.e., the sin of self-righteousness).

On the other hand you have another group that experiencing the natural fruit of a loving relationship with a selfless God. They have fruit that is genuine because they are fully resting in "Christ our righteousness”.

[John317]

New direction...new heart...new converted mind, in and of itself, can't defeat the flesh. Only surrender to the HS. You still don't get it. Maybe that's why you insist that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted?

Where do you think the new direction and new heart and new mind come from, if not from the Holy Spirit? Those things don't come on their own, out of us-- but rather from the Holy Spirit. We must cooperate with the Holy Spirit. So, of course, we can't defeat the flesh, but are enabled and empowered by the Spirit to overcome all temptations.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN317--"Satan tells half-truths, Robert."

Quote:

ROBERT-- When he says you are a sinner and according to the law you must die he is 100% right. What he leaves out is the same the legalists leave out: "In Christ" my humanity has actually fulfilled the law. That part he leaves out....The legalists help him here...

He leaves out a lot more than that, Robert. For instance, Satan conveniently leaves out the fact that they are changed people through the grace of God and the Holy Spirit. Jesus called it being "born from above" or "born again." It is being born from God, receiving a new nature or seed. Satan leaves out the fact that through God's grace and their own efforts empowered by the Spirit, they are overcomers. Reread 1 John 3 to 5. Especially 1 John 5: 3-5, 18 and Rev. 2: 7, 17, 26; 3: 5, 12, 21. "He who overcomes and obeys my commands [NIV--"does my will"] to the end, I will give him authority over the nations" Rev. 2: 26. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Those things are the result of faith and they demonstrate a changed life, but this, the father of lies does not mention.

Quote:

JOHN317--Let's discuss this issue thoroughly.

Quote:

ROBERT---The second you branch into any self-righteous, legalistic nonsense that moment our discussion is over.

You mean the second I branch into what you interpret to be "legalistic nonsense." That is your opinion, and you are certainly welcome to have one, of course. But let's keep our eyes focussed on the issues and not on labeling each other's ideas or line of argument. If you can show by evidence or by rightly dividing the word of God that I am wrong or that my ideas are indeed legalistic, well and good.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Let's discuss this issue thoroughly.

Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

On the surface these two statements seem diametrically opposed. However, a close look reveals that Paul & James are dealing with two different issues.

Paul is writing of justification by "works of the law" while James is writing of "works".

Paul denies that anyone will ever get to heaven by keeping the law, for ALL believers are falling short of God's goodness. Remember that the law is more than just ten brief rules, it is spiritual.

On the other hand, James is stating that genuine justification by faith produces a change in the believer so that fruit is seen in the life. No, it does not fulfill ALL the requirements of the law to love totally selflessly, but it does witness to our relationship to Christ.

The question is does God use our works in the investigative judgment? Let's see:

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” 1 John 5:28,29

Yes, God does use our works - but it’s not what you might be thinking. He does not compare our bad works to our good ones and the pile that’s the greatest decides our destiny. God is not interested if we measure up to the law’s demands (for none of us do). He is interested in the fruit that comes from a relationship with Him, i.e., is it genuine or is it self-righteous?

Bad fruit, i.e., self-righteous fruit, comes a legalistic relationship – one where the believer sees heaven through a set on rules. He sees God as demanding – a tyrant. He sees a bloodthirsty God (although he will not admit it) – an Old Covenant god who is more than willing to crush the life out of you. The fruits produced from such a hellish religion produces “evil fruit” that will condemn the believer in the judgment. This group is seen in the following verses:

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (sin – i.e., the sin of self-righteousness).

On the other hand you have another group that experiencing the natural fruit of a loving relationship with a selfless God. They have fruit that is genuine because they are fully resting in "Christ our righteousness”.

I agree with most of this post, Robert. I agree with all of it except for one line.

That line is, "God is not interested if we measure up to the law’s demands (for none of us do)." ( I agree that none of us measures up to the law's demands as far as concerns our earning salvation or meriting justification. But determining whether we have earned salvation is not the role of the law in the Investigative Judgment.)

Ellen White says, "As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. (GC 483)

Beyond your statement that God is not interested to see if we measure up to the law's demands, I don't believe that your post contradicts anything I said in my previous post about the reasons for the judgment. If you believe I do contradict what you have said here, please copy and paste it so I can see what it is. Maybe it does, but on the other hand maybe you either don't understand what I am saying or maybe I need to explain better what I understand the truth to be.

What purpose or role does the law of God have in the investigative judgment? Is the law, in your view, completely irrelevant as far as the lives of the saints are concerned?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

EGW: "Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Ellen states that Satan is right! He's right in stating that the best of us are still self-centered, selfish sinners. The best of us!

Since Satan is right, what is the reason for the investigative judgment? Try again![/quote']

Let us look carefully at the rest of the above paragraph, which you truncated for some reason. Let's see if reading the rest of the page, and a few other pages after your quote, adds anything to the meaning of what she says about this issue:

PK 589-592:

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them."

The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are subtle; but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness will be removed, that through them the image of Christ may be perfectly revealed. At times the Lord may seem to have forgotten the perils of His church and the injury done her by her enemies. But God has not forgotten. Nothing in this world is so dear to the heart of God as His church. It is not His will that worldly policy shall corrupt her record. He does not leave His people to be overcome by Satan's temptations. He will punish those who misrepresent Him, but He will be gracious to all who sincerely repent. To those who call upon Him for strength for the development of Christian character, He will give all needed help.

In the time of the end the people of God will sigh and cry for the abominations done in the land. With tears they will warn the wicked of their danger in trampling upon the divine law, and with unutterable sorrow they will humble themselves before the Lord in penitence. The wicked will mock their sorrow and ridicule their solemn appeals. But the anguish and humiliation of God's people is unmistakable evidence that they are regaining the strength and nobility of character lost in consequence of sin. It is because they are drawing nearer to Christ, because their eyes are fixed on His perfect purity, that they discern so clearly the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Meekness and lowliness are the conditions of success and victory. A crown of glory awaits those who bow at the foot of the cross.

God's faithful, praying ones are, as it were, shut in with Him. They themselves know not how securely they are shielded. Urged on by Satan, the rulers of this world are seeking to destroy them; but could the eyes of God's children be opened as were the eyes of Elisha's servant at Dothan, they would see angels of God encamped about them, holding in check the hosts of darkness.

As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, "Take away the filthy garments," and the encouraging words are spoken, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." Zechariah 3:4. The spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world. Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages. They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon's roar. Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin. A "fair miter" is set upon their heads.

While Satan has been urging his accusations, holy angels, unseen, have been passing to and fro, placing upon the faithful ones the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in their foreheads. They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand which were redeemed from the earth. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14:4, 5. Now is reached the complete fulfillment of the words of the Angel: "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My Servant the Branch." Zechariah 3:8. Christ is revealed as the Redeemer and Deliverer of His people. Now indeed are the remnant "men wondered at," as the tears and humiliation of their pilgrimage give place to joy and honor in the presence of God and the Lamb. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." Isaiah 4:2, 3.

When we take into account the rest of what Ellen White said about the topic, it changes things dramatically, doesn't it? No longer are we left with the view that Satan is telling the FULL truth. He is indeed leaving out quite a bit, and that bit makes all the difference.

Satan does not mention that the saints have repented and are overcomers through Christ and the power of the Spirit. There are many other things Satan leaves out, such as the fact that he has constantly tempted and accused them. Yes, Satan ALWAYS tells half truths, and this case is no exception.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Is it in Prophets and Kings or in GC or in both?

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

But just because I agree here doesn't mean I agree elsewhere....So don't go there!

Don't go where, Robert? Not sure what you mean. Do you mean you do not want me to quote other things in Ellen White's writings on this subject?