"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

But being saved from our sins and not in our sins does not mean we never sin.

How can I make you understand? Let me see....

Well, Romans 3:23! To fall short doesn't mean to sin/fall now and then, but to never reach the loftiest demands of God's law. In other words although a believer grows (if he/she has the assurance of salvation) that believer is failing to fully live Christ's unselfish life.

So, what's your point that we are not fully living Christ's unselfish life?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

How can I make you understand? Let me see....

Well' date=' Romans 3:23! To fall short doesn't mean to sin/fall now and then, but to never reach the loftiest demands of God's law. In other words although a believer grows (if he/she has the assurance of salvation) that believer is failing to fully live Christ's unselfish life. [/quote']

So, what's your point that we are not fully living Christ's unselfish life?

Gerry

“It will be seen that the glory [of God] shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" [i.e., is not self-seeking] has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.” DA 20

"The law of self-renouncing love" = "the love which 'seeketh not her own'". To renounce self-interests and self-seeking is the fulfillment of the law - i.e., the spirit of the law. Anything less than this is falling short of the glory of God. Clearly God will save sinners in their sin, unless you plan on becoming perfect before you hit your dusty bed!

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

Clearly God will save sinners in their sin, unless you plan on becoming perfect before you hit your dusty bed!

Exactly. Case Closed.

Thanks Robert. Good job.

It really is so clear.

The Good News of the Gospel is ...

Jesus SAVES us IN our Sins.

[phkrause]

Rob I'm not sure what your reading? But my bible, for Romans 3:23, reads: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Pretty much what John317 is saying.

pkrause

[Robert]

Jesus SAVES us IN our Sins.

This, however, does not deny growth. While I am not walking fully as Christ walked I do experience agape in my life.

For example, I have been convinced by God's Spirit that adultery, murder, theft...basically the last six commandments point out sin. So to practice these sins as a legitimate lifestyle would, for me, show that I am either harding my heart against God's Spirit or that I am lost and outside God's grace.

We need to follow that which we have been convicted of....If I know looking at (for example) Playboy is wrong I need to follow my conscience. If I am saved and have accepted the gospel I won't be able to continually condone such activity. Sure, my nature...my flesh could get the better of me, but when convicted of my sin will I repent and will I say, "God, you are right...I need you...I repent of this sin". Why? Because in my converted mind I hate the principle of self and sin.

Again, a willful sin isn't one we willful do, but a willful sin is a known sin that we refuse to acknowledge and repent of day after day, week after week.

That's my take,

Robert

[Robert]

Rob I'm not sure what your reading? But my bible, for Romans 3:23, reads: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Pretty much what John317 is saying.

pkrause

"All have sinned" doesn't point to our past sins, but our fall "in Adam"! We are, because of Adam, sinful by birth (selfish by birth) not because we are guilty of his sin, but because we share his fallen, sinful life.

"And fall short of the glory of God" refers to the fact that the best of us are failing to fully live Christ's life. Again, it doesn't deny growth. If you have accepted Christ there will be growth. Follow your conscience.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But being saved from our sins and not in our sins does not mean we never sin.

How can I make you understand? Let me see....

Well, Romans 3:23! To fall short doesn't mean to sin/fall now and then, but to never reach the loftiest demands of God's law. In other words although a believer grows (if he/she has the assurance of salvation) that believer is failing to fully live Christ's unselfish life.

But doesn't the Bible itself see a difference between "falling short of God's glory," or "ideal," and "practicing sin"? That is, if the faithful Christian's "falling short of God's glory" is the same as willful, deliberate, practicing of sin, then why does 1 John 3: 1-10 talk about sin the way it does?

Notice that it doesn't say we will stop falling short of God's glory. It says we won't continue to commit sin. By that it means we won't keep committing the same sins but that we will repent of them, confess, and overcome them.

Therefore, it is a mistake to say that all falling short of God's glory is the same as sinning deliberately and willfully. The Bible clearly distinguishes those two things.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Jesus SAVES us IN our Sins.

This, however, does not deny growth. While I am not walking fully as Christ walked I do experience agape in my life.

For example, I have been convinced by God's Spirit that adultery, murder, theft...basically the last six commandments point out sin. So to practice these sins as a legitimate lifestyle would, for me, show that I am either harding my heart against God's Spirit or that I am lost and outside God's grace.

We need to follow that which we have been convicted of....If I know looking at (for example) Playboy is wrong I need to follow my conscience. If I am saved and have accepted the gospel I won't be able to continually condone such activity. Sure, my nature...my flesh could get the better of me, but when convicted of my sin will I repent and will I say, "God, you are right...I need you...I repent of this sin". Why? Because in my converted mind I hate the principle of self and sin.

Again, a willful sin isn't one we willful do, but a willful sin is a known sin that we refuse to acknowledge and repent of day after day, week after week.

That's my take,

Robert

That's Cool. Sin is there as a warning sign in my book. It says to us ... you are going down a dangerous path. The path of sin leads to Satan and rejecting God. We are His. We are saved. But if we continue in sin ... we could come to the place where we no longer accept or want that saved status.

Danger Will Robinson ... Danger.

[Robert]

But doesn't the Bible itself see a difference between "falling short of God's glory," or "ideal," and "practicing sin"?

Let's go back to an example for clarification. I have been convicted that any type of sexuality outside marriage is sin - it is self-seeking...it's an ego trip.

So, let's say I fall and have sex outside my marriage. What next? The Spirit is going to convict me of sin. Sin is more than just breaking a rule...it's putting a knife into Christ! My sins put Christ on the cross. So I must hate known sin because of what it did to Christ (and of course how it can wreck my life and the lives of others).

Now what happens if I refuse to repent and forsake that sin at a mental level? I begin to harden my heart against God's Spirit. Eventually this has potential to take me out of Christ and back under the curse. Why?

You see if I know that adultery is sin and yet refuse to repent of it I am practicing sin. I am refusing forgiveness. I am refusing Christ to present me in Himself without sin. I am a legalist of the finest sort.

Rob

[Robert]

Here's a warning for those who think that they can condone known sin:

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible [did you get that, "impossible"] for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away [not fall into sin, but fall from grace], to be brought back to repentance, [why?] because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

How do you fall away? By refusing to acknowledge known sin!

If I persistently refuse to repent of known sin eventually my heart will be hardened and the Spirit can no longer convicted me of sin. Once you have persistently and ultimately hardened your heart the Spirit can longer reach you. You have the unpardonable sin - the rejection of the Holy Spirit who is Christ's representative on earth. You are personally, knowingly nailing Christ to the cross. From this there's no coming back. Therefore (here's the warning) if you persistently refuse to repent of known sin eventually you will fall from grace and be once lost forever lost. There's no coming back.

[Woody]

If any of you would like to see Tom Hughes web site ... here it is ... http://prophecywatch.biz/wst_page8.html

[Woody]

Here's a warning for those who think that they can condone known sin:

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible [did you get that, "impossible"] for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away [not fall into sin, but fall from grace], to be brought back to repentance, [why?] because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

How do you fall away? By refusing to acknowledge known sin!

If I persistently refuse to repent of known sin eventually my heart will be hardened and the Spirit can no longer convicted me of sin. Once you have persistently and ultimately hardened your heart the Spirit can longer reach you. You have the unpardonable sin - the rejection of the Holy Spirit who is Christ's representative on earth. You are personally, knowingly nailing Christ to the cross. From this there's no coming back. Therefore (here's the warning) if you persistently refuse to repent of known sin eventually you will fall from grace and be once lost forever lost. There's no coming back.

This is good. But since we are sinners ... we will continue to have sins that we have to repent of over and over .... the same ones. This is where the phrase "Saved IN our sins" comes into play. However ,... you are right that if we dabble with sin we can get to the point where we are so hardened that we reject God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But doesn't the Bible itself see a difference between "falling short of God's glory," or "ideal," and "practicing sin"?

Let's go back to an example for clarification. I have been convicted that any type of sexuality outside marriage is sin - it is self-seeking...it's an ego trip.

So, let's say I fall and have sex outside my marriage. What next? The Spirit is going to convict me of sin. Sin is more than just breaking a rule...it's putting a knife into Christ! My sins put Christ on the cross. So I must hate known sin because of what it did to Christ (and of course how it can wreck my life and the lives of others).

Now what happens if I refuse to repent and forsake that sin at a mental level? I begin to harden my heart against God's Spirit. Eventually this has potential to take me out of Christ and back under the curse. Why?

You see if I know that adultery is sin and yet refuse to repent of it I am practicing sin. I am refusing forgiveness. I am refusing Christ to present me in Himself without sin. I am a legalist of the finest sort.

Rob

Yes, I agree. That is what practicing sin is. It is insisting on doing what we know is wrong. It is saying to God and the Holy Spirit that we don't care what His will is or what the Holy Spirit is telling us.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

“It will be seen that the glory [of God] shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" [i.e., is not self-seeking] has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.” DA 20

"The law of self-renouncing love" = "the love which 'seeketh not her own'". To renounce self-interests and self-seeking is the fulfillment of the law - i.e., the spirit of the law. Anything less than this is falling short of the glory of God. Clearly God will save sinners in their sin, unless you plan on becoming perfect before you hit your dusty bed!

Rob

Yep!!! Just as I thought!!! In spite of the Spirit working in the believer, you paint the believer in such a wretched condition that God would have no choice but to let him in with his fornications, idols, etc. etc!!!

It is interesting that you paint EGW as a legalist, yet you quote her to back up your notion that God would admit into His kingdom believers with all their sins!!!

"Toward those who fall into sin, the church has a duty, to warn, to instruct, and if possible to restore. "Reprove, rebuke, exhort," the Lord says, "with all long-suffering and doctrine." 2 Tim 4:2. Deal faithfully with wrongdoing. Warn every soul that is in danger. Leave none to deceive themselves. Call sin by its right name. Declare what God has said in regard to lying, Sabbathbreaking, stealing, idolatry, and every other evil. "They which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21. If they persist in sin, the judgment you have declared from God's word is pronounced upon them in heaven. In choosing to sin, they disown Christ; the church must show that she does not sanction their deeds, or she herself dishonors her Lord. She must say about sin what God says about it." DA 805, 806.

Gerry

[John317]

....Yep!!! Just as I thought!!! In spite of the Spirit working in the believer, you paint the believer in such a wretched condition that God would have no choice but to let him in with his fornications, idols, etc. etc!!!

It is interesting that you paint EGW as a legalist, yet you quote her to back up your notion that God would admit into His kingdom believers with all their sins!!!

"Toward those who fall into sin, the church has a duty, to warn, to instruct, and if possible to restore. "Reprove, rebuke, exhort," the Lord says, "with all long-suffering and doctrine." 2 Tim 4:2. Deal faithfully with wrongdoing. Warn every soul that is in danger. Leave none to deceive themselves. Call sin by its right name. Declare what God has said in regard to lying, Sabbathbreaking, stealing, idolatry, and every other evil. "They which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21. If they persist in sin, the judgment you have declared from God's word is pronounced upon them in heaven. In choosing to sin, they disown Christ; the church must show that she does not sanction their deeds, or she herself dishonors her Lord. She must say about sin what God says about it." DA 805, 806.

Gerry

I have had this same concern about Robert's theology for a long time. I am very interested in seeing his response to this.

I don't believe we will be saved if we have not confessed and repented of sins that we are aware of and been convicted of. To do otherwise would be to perpetuate sin in God's kingdom, it seems to me.

I know there are those who will say that this means "confession" and "repentance" is the basis of salvation, but that is not true. It is simply that there are conditions of salvation. God's love is unconditional, but salvation has conditions. One of those conditions is true faith and true obedience. If there is true faith, it will lead to obedience, so I don't see these two things as different. That was the apostle James' point.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

...that Jesus might have permission to do for another that which He is prohibited from doing while there are none to give that right.

I'm sorry that this is off topic, but where in the Bible do you get justification for this idea? I've heard it mentioned before, about us "giving permission" to Jesus or the Holy Spirit when we pray an intercessory prayer.

So is this scriptural or not?

Graeme

The conclusion is arrived at through the right of free will. The prohibition is one God places upon Himself and is largely a prohibition resulting from His unwillingness to infringe upon our right, given by Him, to make up our own mind free of divine authoritative duress. It's a basic reason why the ten commandments are looked at by some, not as demandments, but as instructional counsels by Divine Wisdom that will, if heeded, bring rewards that place in clear view the reasonableness of the principles of harmonious and eternal lifestyles.

"Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5 NASB

In reference to the prayers for someone who has been so seduced by the prince of darkness that the seduced no longer desires our Lord's presence in their life, the prayers of another on their behalf allows God, in answering the prayers of one who trusts Him, the ability to reveal His power

without infringeing upon the liberty of the erring, caused by ignorance.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. " Luke 23:34 KJV

OTOH, for the one who has deliberately and painstakingly sought out ways to circumvent the principles of God's Divine will, such as Lucifer, God will not take away their Divine right to walk in the ways of darkness if that is their final wish.

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that." 1 John 5:16 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Clearly God will save sinners in their sin, unless you plan on becoming perfect before you hit your dusty bed!

Exactly. Case Closed.

Thanks Robert. Good job.

It really is so clear.

The Good News of the Gospel is ...

Jesus SAVES us IN our Sins.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Matthew 1:21 KJV

That, of course, is a promise only given to His people.

"...let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:20 NASB

"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, it is much more [certain], now that we are reconciled, that we shall be saved (daily delivered from sin's dominion) through His [ resurrection] life." Romans 5:10 AMP

Regards!

[Planey]

Thank you Gerry, John317, LifeHisCost (and on occasions Neil, Olger, Tom Wetmore and others) for your contributions to the topic of the plan of salvation. At the moment I am fairly fragile and am clinging to a number of promises in the Bible.

I have read much of Robert's material (well he's only made one or two different posts, he just keeps recycling them ad infinitum, ad nauseam) and if I read too much of this I would just give up.

Why does the general tone of his posts seem so different to the tone of the words recorded in the Gospels as having been spoken by Jesus?

Graeme

[olger]

Psalm 16:11 for you this morning..

blessings,

oG

[fccool]

A general response to the post.

The Bible is pretty clear on this subject and the answer is not found in way too right view (aka After salvation we cease to sin, and it is possible for us not to sin), and way left view ( aka After the salvation you can do no wrong in eyes of God).

It's very convenient to show just one side of the story and base dogmas on it. There is also another side... the one that is closer to reality of everyday Christian. And that dirty side is that we sin every day... without knowing (sins of commission). And at times we sin knowingly ... sin of commission. If you say something that you don't mean, that's a lie. You can't wiggle yourself out of it. The old nature is still there. That's why it is always internal struggle of being a Christian, and let's not oversimplify this struggle.

The reason that people are leaving churches is because of this oversimplified view of salvation experience - aka. the real Christians do not sin. We know that it's simply not true... and people just give up thinking that it's an impossible standard, instead of taking it for what it is... a struggle where you may fail many times.

Sin is transgression of the law, but righteousness does NOT happen by keeping the law. Bible is very clear on that. Some people get it backward. But because Christ saves sinners, does not mean that He promotes and encourages sin sin.

Quote:

If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Here, rebuilding what was destroyed is talking about going back to the life that you lived before you were a Christian. IT DOES NOT REFER TO EVERY DAY STRUGGLE!!!!.

Paul himself expressed frustration of every day struggles and failures: "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do" I know that churches today are filled with saints that are far stronger and less selfish than Paul. Especially those who know the "shoulds", but hardly practice these. Does it mean that they are not saved? Let's not minimize the grace of God as this view leads some to stone people, maybe not physically... but psychologically and verbally. Instead of encouragement and support, people who need these the most get criticism and rejection. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

I think that humility is best way to approach this subject... like Paul said it: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells". , even though in the beginning it was... everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good

I know that I can speak only for myself, but I surely do know that I at times have uncontrolled spurs of lust (sin), pride (sin), selfish anger (sin), prejudice (lying which is sin). Does it mean that I have no place in kingdom of Heaven. But if take the verses such as these:

6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

.....

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

... then it means the Heaven will be pretty empty, except for very few monks who confine themselves to solitude and even those practice self-righteousness.

Therefore, if we are not saved IN our sins... WE ARE DOOMED!!! I know that the Bible is clear on the standard, BUT I also know that the best of us CAN NOT live up to that standard of completely shaking off sin here on earth.

Here's how many extreme fundamentalists view salvation. Jesus makes a down payment, and we keep on making monthly installments of absolute obedience, and if we miss a couple of payments then Jesus declares foreclosure. This is NOT the salvation of the Bible. Here's the Biblical view of salvation:

Jesus paid for the Salvation and all we have to do is to come inside and live it. It's a beautiful house... clean and full of joy. It's ours, but we may choose to come out and go back to the slums. But that does not mean that the house doors are closed. They remain open. If we truly appreciate the gift, then we would keep the house clean and will not trash it. But we do not come in with absolutely clean tendencies and just become cleaning freaks. We have to be taught how to be clean... slowly. We may spill some milk on the floor, and forget to take out trash once in a while, but it does not mean that we would lose the house because of these. But that's what some people would make you believe.

I hardly think that other evangelicals that preach "once saved always saved" promote life of sin. I disagree with that doctrine that I once believed, BUT THEY DO NOT TEACH THAT YOU CAN JUST GO OUT AND DO WHATEVER!!!! Let's not misrepresent other people's views here. They hold that if you do go out and do whatever you want, then you have not experienced salvation to begin with. This is far from the portrayal of this view that is painted in our churches.

Jesus did say to the woman "Go and sin no more", while those who condemned her were stoning her left realizing that they are no better. In the similar way, we are no better than those who are not saved because of what we do. From then on we can not claim credit for what we do.

The Bible, and Jesus himself are pretty clear on the issue of sin foreign to the believer. BUT it does allow room for mistakes without the need for constant re-baptism, and constant re-sacrificing of Christ (like Catholics do). Bible is very clear THAT WE SHOULD NOT SIN. If our lives do not reflect change, then we are not really changed. If we do what we always did... we'll get what we always got. John deals with this subject extensively in 1st John 1,2..

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

If John realistically expected people to cease all sinning, the verse in bold would be left out. But this is the assurance of salvation... it allows for some failures. Sometimes minor, and sometimes major. It does not diminish Biblical view of sin being abhorrent to God, but it gives us opportunity to live our lives without fear of making mistakes.

[Robert]

I have read much of Robert's material (well he's only made one or two different posts, he just keeps recycling them ad infinitum, ad nauseam) and if I read too much of this I would just give up.

If you are looking at your performance for your standing with God you will give up anyway! Wait until trouble really comes your way (like the time of trouble) and if you are looking to your experience instead of who you are "in Christ" in the heavenly places you will abandon Christ.

Rob

[Robert]

... then it means the Heaven will be pretty empty

All good points....

[Gerr]

Quote:

The reason that people are leaving churches is because of this oversimplified view of salvation experience - aka. the real Christians do not sin. We know that it's simply not true...

It is the Apostle John who claims that when we are abiding in Him, we will not willfully/deliberately commit a sin. (See 1 Jn 3 in the Amplified). As long as we are in this fallen body, I agree that sin will remain but it does not reign. The believer, of course, will always be free to exercise his/her free will and choose to do wrong. Forgiveness is and will always be available to the repentant sinner. I don't believe that the believer is culpable/accountable for inadvertent sins.

Quote:

and people just give up thinking that it's an impossible standard, instead of taking it for what it is... a struggle where you may fail many times.

Until the distinction is made between willful/deliberate from unintentional/inadvertent sins, yes, it would be extremely discouraging. I don't think it is an impossible standard to ask believers to stop deliberately consorting with the enemy. No man can serve 2 masters.

Quote:

Sin is transgression of the law, but righteousness does NOT happen by keeping the law. Bible is very clear on that. Some people get it backward. But because Christ saves sinners, does not mean that He promotes and encourages sin sin.

Agree 100%.

Quote:

Quote:

If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Here, rebuilding what was destroyed is talking about going back to the life that you lived before you were a Christian. IT DOES NOT REFER TO EVERY DAY STRUGGLE!!!!.

Paul himself expressed frustration of every day struggles and failures: "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do" I know that churches today are filled with saints that are far stronger and less selfish than Paul. Especially those who know the "shoulds", but hardly practice these. Does it mean that they are not saved? Let's not minimize the grace of God as this view leads some to stone people, maybe not physically... but psychologically and verbally. Instead of encouragement and support, people who need these the most get criticism and rejection. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

This is where I disagree with you. I have studied Rom 7 sporadically over the years, and I have come to the conclusion that the man of Rom 7 knows about the law/will of God but is not yet a born-again person. We have dealt with at length in some of the other threads. If you look at the 2 above scriptures you quoted, you will find them to be incompatible. Re-read Rom 7 and you will find that the man described there is still a slave to sin. One can't be a slave to sin and be a slave to God at the same time. Can't serve 2 masters.

Quote:

I think that humility is best way to approach this subject... like Paul said it: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells". , even though in the beginning it was... everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good

I know that I can speak only for myself, but I surely do know that I at times have uncontrolled spurs of lust (sin), pride (sin), selfish anger (sin), prejudice (lying which is sin). Does it mean that I have no place in kingdom of Heaven. But if take the verses such as these:

Yes, we all have internal struggles. But Paul also said that when we, "Walk in the Spirit, ...you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16, cf Rom 8.

Quote:

6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

.....

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

... then it means the Heaven will be pretty empty, except for very few monks who confine themselves to solitude and even those practice self-righteousness.

Then either the Apostle John is telling the truth or he is telling a lie. How can a believer "practice" - present, ongoing, willful violation of the principles of God's gov't?

Quote:

Therefore, if we are not saved IN our sins... WE ARE DOOMED!!! I know that the Bible is clear on the standard, BUT I also know that the best of us CAN NOT live up to that standard of completely shaking off sin here on earth.

If we are saved in our idolatrous, adulterous, covetous living, then God has no right to exclude anyone out of heaven. The Bible is very clear that: "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, idolatry... etc. etc. ...those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21.

Quote:

Here's how many extreme fundamentalists view salvation. Jesus makes a down payment, and we keep on making monthly installments of absolute obedience, and if we miss a couple of payments then Jesus declares foreclosure.

I don't know whether I am a fundamentalist or not, but what you are portraying is absolutely wrong!!! Gotta go for now. I'll look at the rest later.

Gerry

[John317]

Paul himself expressed frustration of every day struggles and failures: "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do" I know that churches today are filled with saints that are far stronger and less selfish than Paul. Especially those who know the "shoulds", but hardly practice these. Does it mean that they are not saved? Let's not minimize the grace of God as this view leads some to stone people, maybe not physically... but psychologically and verbally. Instead of encouragement and support, people who need these the most get criticism and rejection. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Romans 7 is not the "norm" for Christians. The man of Romans 7 is not living by the Spirit. Notice that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit in the description of this man's life. That is because Paul is describing the struggle of the man who is trying to do it all on his own, apart from a personal relationship with Christ and apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. Compare the experience of this man and what Paul says in Romans 6 and 8, as well as John 3: 1-10.

[Woody]

Quote:

How can a believer "practice" - present, ongoing, willful violation of the principles of God's gov't?

How? He manages to do this because he is a sinner and it just comes natural. It's not hard to do at all. But while we find it easy to sin ... Jesus finds it easy to save those who love Him.