"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Where in the Bible does it say that a man who "has the Holy Spirit" cannot do right but MUST always do wrong? Yet, according to Romans 7: 19, this is precisely the experience of the man of Romans 7.

In Romans 7:22 he makes this statement:

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.

There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22.

First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable.

I will study this aspect of it again. It is not something new to me, but I need time to study this thoroughly in connection with the spiritual condition of the man Paul is describing.

[Woody]

Quote:

all Christians practice willful sin.

This I agree with. And so does Ellen White ...

Quote:

"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." Steps to Christ p. 62

[praise Him]

In Romans 7 Paul is describing the struggle of a new believer.

Quote:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Here we see that as babes in Christ we are still carnal. Until we consider ourselves dead to sin... making a decided choice to follow God completely, known as crucifying the flesh Rom 6:6-7. We are still carnal in nature. Once we realize how utterly vile and loathsome our characters are and how hopelessly trapped in sin we are, can we in true humble contrition realize our only hope is through the Power of Christ. Rom. 7:22-25.

Quote:

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Only after we repent or turn from our sins, making that decided choice (that every human at some point in life will make) to follow God with our whole heart can we be truly converted and the Holy Spirit work through us with true power. This is why the struggle in Romans chapter 7. This is the "birthing pains" if you will of our rebirth and conversion.

Quote:

The exhortation of the apostle is, "Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." It is by engaging in this work, and by exercising living faith in God, that we are to perfect a Christian character. The work of cleansing the soul-temple and preparing for Christ's appearing must be done while we are in this world of temptation. Just as Christ finds us in character when he comes, so we shall remain. {ST, September 29, 1887 par. 8}

We should make daily advancement in the work of character-building. When we try to separate from us our sinful habits, it may at times seem that we are tearing ourselves all to pieces; but this is the very work that we must do if we would grow up unto the full stature of men and women in Christ Jesus, if we would become fit temples for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not the will of God that we should remain in feebleness and darkness. He would have us put on the whole armor, and fight valiantly the battle against sin and self. And after we have truly repented of our sins, and done all that we can to overcome them, he would have us manifest a calm, unyielding trust in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. {ST, September 29, 1887 par. 9}

If we make an entire surrender to him, leave our life of sin and passion and pride, and cling to Christ and his merits, he will fulfill to us all that he has promised. He says that he will give liberally to all who ask him. Cannot we believe it? I have tested him on this point, and know that he is faithful to fulfill all his promises. {ST, September 29, 1887 par. 10}

God calls upon those who know His will to be doers of His word. Weakness, halfheartedness, and indecision provoke the assaults of Satan; and those who permit these traits to grow will be borne helplessly down by the surging waves of temptation. Everyone who professes the name of Christ is required to grow up to the full stature of Christ, the Christian's living head. {Mar 44.1}

[John317]

Quote:

all Christians practice willful sin.

This I agree with. And so does Ellen White ...

Quote:

"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." Steps to Christ p. 62

I thought you said Ellen White taught that all Christians practice willful sin. She does not say this here. "The willful practicing of sin" is not simply being unable on our own to "perfectly obey the holy law." Willful practice of sin means wanting and deliberately planning to continue sinning. It is not simply sinning despite what you want to do. It is STUBBORNLY WANTING AND PLANNING TO LIVE IN SIN. It is not falling short of God's glory. It is desiring to keep committing sin.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE ALL CHRISTIANS STUBBORNLY WANT AND PLAN TO GO ON SINNING AND LIVING IN SIN EVEN WHEN THEY ARE FREE NOT TO DO THIS? DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT ELLEN WHITE TAUGHT?

I've already quoted clear statements from her pen that show she does not say Christian's willfully practice sin. The apostles John and Paul talk about how the person who has the Spirit abiding in him practices righteousness, not unrighteousness. John says, "IF ANYONE SINS...," NOT "SINCE YOU ARE ALWAYS SINNING AND CANNOT STOP SINNING..."

Practicing righteousness does not mean never committing a sin or never making mistakes, nor does it mean Christians don't fall short of God's glory. There is a difference between the person who is falling short of God's glory while he is in a sincere relationship with Christ, and the person who is planning on continuing in sin without having any intention of repenting and overcoming through the power of God's Spirit.

If Ellen White says people born from above and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them practice willful sin, she would be contradicting the apostle John, and that would prove that she is a false prophet.

Please read again:

"Had Moses and Aaron been cherishing self-esteem or indulging a passionate spirit in the face of divine warning and reproof, their guilt would have been far greater. But they were not chargeable with willful or deliberate sin; they had been overcome by a sudden temptation, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment." PP 419

NOTICE THAT HERE ELLEN WHITE CONTRASTS "WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE SIN" WITH BEING "OVERCOME BY A SUDDEN TEMPTATION."

"Those who are teaching this doctrine today [the doctrine that "by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word"] have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity."--Signs of the Times, February 25, 1897.

Please reread and study the whole chapter "The Test of Discipleship" in the wonderful book, Steps To Christ.

[Woody]

I appreciate and agree with the quotes you provided John. But if we put them in context we can see that sin is sin.

Quote:

"Now he has another work to do, as God's minister, to vindicate His honor before the people, and let them see that sin is sin, and righteousness is righteousness." 3T 301

If our sins are not 'willful' ... then who is forcing your will to do them. NO one is holding a gun to my head when I sin. I sin willfully. I have the choice to know God as I am privileged to know Him. And if I make the choice to know Him ... I will not sin. There is 'NO excuse for sin' as Ellen White puts it. So ... when we sin ... it is willful ... for all the provisions to not sin are available to each of us. You can't serve both God and Satan at the same time. You can have only ONE master. When you sin ... you are serving Satan. Again ... no one is holding a gun to your head.

[praise Him]

Quote:

Some who claim to believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour have said, "No one can keep the law." On this point the words of Christ are decisive. He states, "I have kept my Father's commandments." And He is our example in all things. . . . {TMK 292.2}...

Christ came to the world to counteract Satan's falsehood that God had made a law which men could not keep. Taking humanity upon Himself, He came to this earth, and by a life of obedience showed that God has not made a law that man cannot keep. He showed that it is possible for man perfectly to obey the law. Those who accept Christ as their Saviour, becoming partakers of His divine nature, are enabled to follow His example, living in obedience to every precept of the law. Through the merits of Christ, man is to show by his obedience that he could be trusted in heaven, that he would not rebel. {TMK 292.5}

Christ possessed the same nature that man possesses. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted. The same power by which He obeyed is at man's command. {TMK 292.6}

Christ came to give moral power to man; to elevate, ennoble, and strengthen him. He came to prove the falsity of Satan's charge that God had made a law which man could not keep. While possessing man's nature, Christ kept the Ten Commandments. Thus He proved to the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds and to human beings that it is possible for man perfectly to obey the law. He vindicated God's justice in demanding obedience to His law. Those who accept Christ as their Saviour, becoming partakers of the divine nature, are enabled to follow His example of obedience to every divine precept. {ST, May 14, 1902 par. 7}

In Christ I am as if I had obeyed, and rendered perfect obedience to the law, which we can not perfectly obey without Christ imparts to us His merits and His righteousness. O, the plan of salvation is a wonderful matter, and we have enough to think of, and talk of, and to be thankful for every day of our lives. {PUR, September 4, 1913 par. 3}

This is what sister White is referring to in the quote from Steps to Christ. We of ourselves cannot be perfectly obedient. Through Christ's Power and example we CAN be perfectly obedient. Praise the Lord!

I tend to disagree that ALL sin is willful. There are numerous verses in the Bible talking about taking heed not to be deceived. Paul even asks the Galatians who had bewitched or deceived them. Indeed the Bible says in the end even the very elect would be deceived if it were possible. Why is that not possible? Because the Holy Spirit will be directly guiding them in the true path.

[Woody]

Thanks praise Him. Yes, there is no excuse for sin. For if GOd works IN us ... we will not sin. And we do have the opportunity to know God as is our privilege to know Him. And if we do that ... we will not have sin of ANY kind.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes, of course. I agree with everything here, except the apparent assumption that the man of Romans 7 is simply not giving the Holy Spirit permission. But the thing is there is nothing in Romans 7 that indicates that this man is conscious of the Holy Spirit. [/quote']

Jesus states that, "without Me you can do nothing". He's talking about bearing fruit. Yes, you can produce outward acts that seem good, but without Christ it impossible to do genuine works.

Take the Jews for example, they not only kept the 10 commandments, but they also kept many other rules in the book of the law. The question is were they really keeping the law in the light of what Jesus said above? The answer is no!

Now go back to 1 Cor 13:3 "If I give away all I have, ... but have not love [agape], I gain nothing."

In other words agape is the ingredient by which the law can be kept. The motive must be right...it must be free of self-seeking. That comes only from the Holy Spirit as one surrenders. So without the Spirit you can keep the letter of the law, but with the Holy Spirit you can experience the spirit of the law.

With this in mind go back to Romans 7:14

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

What's the context? The spirituality of the law. That's where he is failing. So the evil he is experiencing isn't murder and/or sexual immorality, etc. No the evil works he is experiencing are works based in iniquity, i.e., good works produced by the flesh. It's the flesh trying to do the impossible.

Rob

[Robert]

In Romans 7 Paul is describing the struggle of a new believer.

Yes, "a believer". I'm glad that you see this. I'm not so sure it's about a "new" believer. Here's why:

Not counting willful sin, every time a believer is confronted by temptation and fails is because he is trying in his own power and therefore he is experiencing the man of Romans 7 experience.

[Robert]

Through Christ's Power and example we CAN be perfectly obedient. Praise the Lord!

That would require a perfect knowledge of God's will, especially His agape love. It would also require perfect surrender. The best of Christians have self-seeking and self-love in their lives. BTW, read Ecclesiastes 7:20

"There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

[Robert]

If our sins are not 'willful' ... then who is forcing your will to do them. NO one is holding a gun to my head when I sin. I sin willfully.

Just thinking out loud....What do you do with the following?

Romans 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out....20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

If our sins are not 'willful' ... then who is forcing your will to do them. NO one is holding a gun to my head when I sin. I sin willfully.

Just thinking out loud....What do you do with the following?

Romans 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out....20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Here's the way I see it. My mind is in harmony with God's agape love (as much as I understand it). So in my mind I delight in God's law according to my converted mind. Now comes temptation. What is temptation...better yet, what's behind temptation? Self-seeking...lust. So my nature (which is based on the love of self...me, me, me) places in my mind a forceful desire.

Let's go with an example. I'll use the guy thing...the guy temptation - sexual temptation:

A "babe" winks at me, but I'm married....Do you think the nature cares? It doesn't care who it hurts as long as it gets what it wants.

Now here's the problem: The moment that thought .... that desire comes to my mind, I have two choices:

1] I can immediately give it over to the Holy Spirit or

2] I can try and say "no" to the desires of my nature.

EGW states that Christ didn't sin even by a thought. As soon as temptation entered His mind He instantly gave it over to the Holy Spirit. If you hesitate, even a moment, your flesh will overpower your mind and you will do what it desires.

So let's say you are tempted. You don't immediately surrender and you end up doing what your nature desires. Did you willfully sin?

I'm not so sure. Why? Because Paul says, "it is no longer I [that is my mind] who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

You see your nature doesn't give you a choice. It says, "I want it...give it to me now." If you fail to immediately yield...to surrender, your nature will capture your mind until its got what it wants.

On the other hand the Holy Spirit doesn't force Himself on you. That's why He must have permission from your mind, but the flesh doesn't ask...it dominates.

The question is when you fail to immediately surrender, and therefore sin, is it your mind or your sin nature that makes you sin?

If it's your mind, then yes, to me that's willful, but if it is your nature is that willful?

Does that make sense or am I off in la la land?

[John317]

I'm in fundamental agreement with your post here, Robert.

Originally Posted By: Robert

Just thinking out loud....What do you do with the following?

Romans 7:17 As it is' date=' it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out....20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Here's the way I see it. My mind is in harmony with God's agape love (as much as I understand it). So in my mind I delight in God's law according to my converted mind. Now comes temptation. What is temptation...better yet, what's behind temptation? Self-seeking...lust. So my nature (which is based on the love of self...me, me, me) places in my mind a forceful desire.

Let's go with an example. I'll use the guy thing...the guy temptation - sexual temptation:

A "babe" winks at me, but I'm married....Do you think the nature cares? It doesn't care who it hurts as long as it gets what it wants.

Now here's the problem: The moment that thought .... that desire comes to my mind, I have two choices:

1'] I can immediately give it over to the Holy Spirit or

2] I can try and say "no" to the desires of my nature.

Why do you say "try"? Do you believe that, by the Holy Spirit, Christians can successfully say "no" to their sinful natures and desires?

We could give all of the temptations over to the Holy Spirit. There is no reason we don't except that we choose not to. There are some sins that we may not want to give up yet. Those are different for different people.

Quote:

EGW states that Christ didn't sin even by a thought. As soon as temptation entered His mind He instantly gave it over to the Holy Spirit. If you hesitate, even a moment, your flesh will overpower your mind and you will do what it desires.

There are many times when people hesitate for a moment, yet don't end up doing what the flesh desires. However, when we consciously hold onto the thought before letting it go, it is sinful, and needs to be confessed and repented of.

Quote:

So let's say you are tempted. You don't immediately surrender and you end up doing what your nature desires. Did you willfully sin?

Here is what "willful" is---

willful | (also wilful)

adjective

(of an immoral or illegal act or omission) intentional; deliberate : willful acts of damage.

• having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects : the pettish, willful side of him.

willful

adjective

1 willful destruction deliberate, intentional, done on purpose, premeditated, planned, conscious. antonym accidental, unintentional.

2 a willful child headstrong, strong-willed, obstinate, stubborn, pigheaded, recalcitrant, uncooperative, obstreperous, ungovernable, unmanageable; balky; formal refractory, contumacious. antonym biddable, amenable.

Quote:

I'm not so sure. Why? Because Paul says, "it is no longer I [that is my mind] who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

You see your nature doesn't give you a choice.

But we do have a choice. Your body can't do any sin without your mind deciding to do it. No one, not even Satan, can force us to commit a sin. Your nature can't take away your choice and your freedom, which is restored to us by the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

It says, "I want it...give it to me now." If you fail to immediately yield...to surrender, your nature will capture your mind until its got what it wants.

On the other hand the Holy Spirit doesn't force Himself on you. That's why He must have permission from your mind, but the flesh doesn't ask...it dominates.

The question is when you fail to immediately surrender, and therefore sin, is it your mind or your sin nature that makes you sin?

If it's your mind, then yes, to me that's willful, but if it is your nature is that willful?

Does that make sense or am I off in la la land?

Let's go back to what "willful" is. Doing sin willfully means that you do sin because it is what you want to do, even though you know it is wrong. Look again:

intentional; deliberate : willful acts of damage.

• having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects

headstrong, strong-willed, obstinate, stubborn, pigheaded

Remember that 1 John 3: 1-10 is talking about the PRACTICE OF WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE SIN. What is "practice"?

• the customary, habitual, or expected procedure of something : current nursing practice | modern child-rearing practices.

2 repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire or maintain proficiency in it : it must have taken a lot of practice to become so fluent.

2 carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly : we still practice some of these rituals today.

• actively pursue or be engaged in (a particular profession or occupation) : he began to practice law | [ intrans. ] he practiced as an attorney | [as adj. ] ( practicing) a practicing architect.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations' date=' and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" 2 Peter 2:9 KJV

"But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NKJV

Regards! [/quote']

What do these quotes have to do with "if you are looking to your experience"?

If you've had the experience/s of these promises already having been fulfilled to a greater or lessor degree in your own past, your faith will be increased during future unexpected crisis as you draw to mind the ongoing mercy of the Lord.

The best evidence of future behavior is past performance and if God performed in mercy to you when you didn't deserve it in the past any more than you deserve it now, your confidence lays hold of the gift of faith in your heart already given by the Holy Spirit, to accept new blessings from Him.

"For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.

Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. " Heb 10:34-36 NASB

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Rom 12:3 NASB

"So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. Romans 10:17 NLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

We will hate sin more and more as we fall deeper in love with Jesus Christ and see what it did and still does to Him.

So the secret of stopping our sinning is to see it from God's perspective and to hate it because we see more clearly what it has done and what it is continuing to do. (("...seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:6 KJV)) Only the Holy Spirit can make us see.

It is one reason John says those who have God's seed, or nature, do not continue to practice sin. We must pray that God will give us His nature. Otherwise we'll be blind and go right on sinning willfully and deliberately.

:Jesusfish:

"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation. For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers, as you still do. Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts, in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true. Then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance." Heb 6:4-12 NLT

Regards!

[John317]

I really appreciate your thoughtful, Bible-based posts, Life.

[Robert]

Why do you say "try"? Do you believe that, by the Holy Spirit, Christians can successfully say "no" to their sinful natures and desires?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

Your body can't do any sin without your mind deciding to do it. No one, not even Satan, can force us to commit a sin.

This is incorrect! I can't believe you said this.

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being [refers to the converted man] I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law [force or power] at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind [my will power] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin [the power of human nature] at work within my members.

Clearly even converted human will power [i.e., "the law of my mind

"] is no match for the sin nature [i.e., "the law of sin"]. Very clear...very clear.

Only as the converted man gives up trying to defeat the sin nature and allows God to have control of his will can he experience victory over "the law of sin."

Rob

[John317]

We're in 100% agreement, Robert. We ourselves, on our own, cannot possibly defeat Satan or our sinful nature. Only by having Christ abiding in us through the Holy Spirit and by maintaining our relationship Christ can the sinful nature and our temptations be defeated and overcome.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...Only as the converted man gives up trying to defeat the sin nature and allows God to have control of his will can he experience victory over "the law of sin."

Rob

Only by having Christ abiding in us through the Holy Spirit and by maintaining our relationship Christ can the sinful nature and our temptations be defeated and overcome.

You are missing the point. You can have the Holy Spirit (be converted), but that doesn't mean you'll defeat the sin nature. You must allow - surrender - the will to the Holy Spirit when your flesh tempts you. IF you, using your converted will power, try to defeat the flesh you'll lose! That's my point.

That's why the man of Romans 7, who is converted, meets with defeat. The good news, however, is just because you fail to allow the Spirit to tackle the flesh, and therefore meet with defeat, there is no condemnation! Why? You have accepted your position "in Christ"!

[LifeHiscost]

If our sins are not 'willful' ... then who is forcing your will to do them.

"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity." Acts 8:23 NASB

" For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin." Romans 7:14 NASB

Bondage: servitude or subjugation to a controlling person or force.

WEBSTER'S NINTH NEW COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" Gal 4:9 KJV

"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." 2 Peter 2:19 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

I appreciate and agree with the quotes you provided John. But if we put them in context we can see that sin is sin.

Quote:

"Now he has another work to do, as God's minister, to vindicate His honor before the people, and let them see that sin is sin, and righteousness is righteousness." 3T 301

If our sins are not 'willful' ... then who is forcing your will to do them. NO one is holding a gun to my head when I sin. I sin willfully. I have the choice to know God as I am privileged to know Him. And if I make the choice to know Him ... I will not sin. There is 'NO excuse for sin' as Ellen White puts it. So ... when we sin ... it is willful ... for all the provisions to not sin are available to each of us. You can't serve both God and Satan at the same time. You can have only ONE master. When you sin ... you are serving Satan. Again ... no one is holding a gun to your head.

OK, I think I know the reason we are having this difference about the meaning of "willful."

"Willful sin" is not called "willful" because our will is involved. It is called "willful sin" because when we do "willful sin," we are doing it stubbornly, deliberately, persistently. Those are the sins we do when we say, "I am determined to commit this sin, even though I know it is against God's will and against His commandments. I realize I am free to do otherwise, but I am just going to do it anyway." It is "willful" because it is deliberate, intentional, done on purpose, premeditated, planned, conscious, as by a willful child headstrong, strong-willed, obstinate, stubborn, pigheaded.

It is not called "willful" simply because we have a choice.

Look at this carefully one more time:

Quote:

"Had Moses and Aaron been cherishing self-esteem or indulging a passionate spirit in the face of divine warning and reproof, their guilt would have been far greater. But they were not chargeable with willful or deliberate sin; they had been overcome by a sudden temptation, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment." PP 419

NOTICE THAT HERE ELLEN WHITE CONTRASTS "WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE SIN" WITH BEING "OVERCOME BY A SUDDEN TEMPTATION."

When we are overcome by sudden temptation, we have a choice. The choice is not taken from us. We make a decision. The will is involved. So, if the will is involved, why isn't sudden temptation also called "willful sin"? Because the temptation overcomes us suddenly at a weak point. Under those circumstances, the sin is not done "on purpose, premeditated, planned."

Human law makes the same distinction, such as between premeditated murder and murder that is done without any planning or premeditation. Murder that is done in the heat of passion or when the person has not had time to thoroughly think it through is not the same as murder that is done by someone lying in wait, having plenty of time to plan and deliberate. We call that a willful act of murder.

I hope this may help clarify the difference between willful sin and sin that is not willful.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Only by having Christ abiding in us through the Holy Spirit and by maintaining our relationship Christ can the sinful nature and our temptations be defeated and overcome.

You are missing the point. You can have the Holy Spirit (be converted)' date=' but that doesn't mean you'll defeat the sin nature. [/quote']

No, having the Spirit doesn't guarantee that we will defeat the sin nature or overcome the temptation. Of course not. That requires us to make a decision to keep our hand in Christ's. The Holy Spirit's power is available to resist and overcome temptation if we want to use it. But it does not mean automatically that we will do so.

Quote:

You must allow - surrender - the will to the Holy Spirit when your flesh tempts you. IF you, using your converted will power, try to defeat the flesh you'll lose! That's my point.

Yes, I agree. It is not our will power, it is our will when united with the will of God. Our will, or decision, is involved, certainly. For instance, if I feel tempted to do wrong, I have to decide to give my will over to God, to surrender to Him. I pray to God and tell him that I am being tempted and I ask Him for greater strength. I may open my Bible and read some promises. I may call someone and ask them to pray with me. I may sing a favorite hymn that I have found helpful and encouraging.

Quote:

That's why the man of Romans 7, who is converted, meets with defeat.

I am not convinced yet that the man of Romans 7 is converted. I see him as being under conviction of the Spirit, but that is different from being converted to Jesus Christ.

Besides, Robert, I don't believe that every Christian who is converted is abiding in the vine or has the Spirit abiding or living in him. Some are living outside of the vine and are not walking in the Spirit.

As for the man of Romans 7, apart from what you mentioned before, I see no evidence he is a converted man. As I said, I'll study that point in depth in relation to the point you brought up.

Quote:

The good news, however, is just because you fail to allow the Spirit to tackle the flesh, and therefore meet with defeat, there is no condemnation! Why? You have accepted your position "in Christ"!

Yes, I do agree with this, provided we are both assuming there is sincere confession of the sin and repentance.

But that is not my main concern. My main concern is that when we commit sin, it actually hurts Jesus and it also has a scarring effect on us, even when we are repentant and forgiven. Sin has consequences despite God's forgiveness. For instance, a man may be unfaithful to his wife and God may forgive him, and maybe his wife forgives also him, yet it will cost him in his relationships. God doesn't remove the consequences of even forgiven sin. God forgave Adam and Eve for their sin, yet they still had to leave the garden and it still cost the death of all of their progeny. And so on and so forth.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Why do you say "try"? Do you believe that, by the Holy Spirit, Christians can successfully say "no" to their sinful natures and desires?

IF you surrender....The Holy Spirit just doesn't automatically take over.

OK, sure.

Quote:

JOHN3:17--Your body can't do any sin without your mind deciding to do it. No one, not even Satan, can force us to commit a sin.

Quote:

This is incorrect! I can't believe you said this.

Give me an example of sin your body commits apart from the mind. Or do you think that Satan can force us to commit sin?

[Robert]

Yes, I do agree with this, provided we are both assuming there is sincere confession of the sin and repentance.

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 16

-CT- Accepted in Christ

-PR- 04

-PG- 107

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient , his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.