"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[John317]

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How can a believer "practice" - present, ongoing, willful violation of the principles of God's gov't?

How? He manages to do this because he is a sinner and it just comes natural. It's not hard to do at all. But while we find it easy to sin ... Jesus finds it easy to save those who love Him.

Here's what practicing sin is, again:

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You see if I know that adultery is sin and yet refuse to repent of it I am practicing sin. I am refusing forgiveness. I am refusing Christ to present me in Himself without sin. I am a legalist of the finest sort.

Rob

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Yes, I agree. That is what practicing sin is. It is insisting on doing what we know is wrong. It is saying to God and the Holy Spirit that we don't care what His will is or what the Holy Spirit is telling us.

Remember not all sin is willful, deliberate, and intentional. Not all sin is done in conscious rebellion against God.

The kind of sin described in 1 John 3: 1-10 is willful, deliberate, intentional, and continual. This is the kind of sin that the Apostle John says Christians who are born from above will not and indeed cannot keep doing.

[Woody]

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Remember not all sin is willful, deliberate, and intentional.

I can appreciate John that you have that view. My personal view as I have stated before ... is that all sin is willful in the fact that we have the choice to get to know God as He is. And if we do that ... we would not sin. But we make the selfish decision to not know Him as we ought. All that we need is available to us to really know God and not sin. And like Ellen White says ... there is no excuse for sin. So, if we sin .... it is because we have chosen to not know God as we could. That is willful.

[John317]

Check these good quotes out:

"What can be done for you? Do you design to wait until Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven? Will He make you all over new when He comes? Oh, no. This will not be done then. The fitting up must be done here; all the hewing and squaring must take place here upon earth, in the hours of probation. You must be fitted up here; the last blow must be given here." Letter 3, 1863, cited in Bio., vol. 2, p. 95.

See also Testimonies, vol. 2, p. 355: “When He comes, He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. . . . No work will then be done for them to remove their defects, and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process, and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us.

“We embrace the truth of God with our different faculties, and as we come under the influence of that truth, it will accomplish the work for us which is necessary to give us a moral fitness for the kingdom of glory and for the society of the heavenly angels. We are now in God’s workshop. Many of us are rough stones from the quarry. But as we lay hold upon the truth of God, its influence affects us. It elevates us and removes from us every imperfection and sin, of whatever nature. Thus we are prepared to see the King in His beauty, and finally to unite with the pure and heavenly angels in the kingdom of glory.”

"Sin not only shuts away from God, but destroys in the human soul both the desire and the capacity for knowing Him. Through sin, the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted; the faculties of the soul are degraded. There is an absence of pure religion, of heart holiness. The converting power of God has not wrought in transforming the character. The soul is weak, and for want of moral force to overcome, is polluted and debased.

"To the heart that has become purified, all is changed. Transformation of character is the testimony to the world of an indwelling Christ. The Spirit of God produces a new life in the soul, bringing the thoughts and desires into obedience to the will of Christ; and the inward man is renewed in the image of God. Weak and erring men and women show to the world that the redeeming power of grace can cause the faulty character to develop into symmetry and abundant fruitfulness." PK 273

[Woody]

Those are all fine and well if taken in context. But you need to get a more rounded view of what she actually believes. Read more about the subject and you will get what she is really saying. I would quote them here again ... but I hate to repeat it over and over. I would just encourage a more comprehensive search of what Ellen has to say.

[praise Him]

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1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ALL sin is transgression of God's Law. True God' gives us the benefit of the doubt if we are in ignorance.

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Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

This does not excuse us to commit those "little" sins our human nature wants to cling to.

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Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Can ALL sin be overcome? Absolutely! THROUGH CHRIST!

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Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Psa 121:3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

Psa 121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from ALL evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Deciding we want to submit our will to Christ. And asking Him to keep us from sin is our way of escape.

Sin separates us from God. Is. 59:2, Prov. 28:9.

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Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is absolutely nothing that has the power to force us to commit sin and separate us from God. Except our choice.

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Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

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Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Here Paul tells us that we are to consider ourselves DEAD to sin! He even gives the example that if we consider ourselves married to Christ and still are married to sin we are committing spiritual adultery. Of course sanctification is a growing process, this however doesn't excuse hanging onto sin. If we are truly converted our lives will swiftly and immediately change drastically.

I would like to bring up the quote used previously from Steps to Christ, in the context that sister White is saying there is no way we can obey God's Law. Let's read what is said IN CONTEXT!

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] It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us.

She is stating, correctly, that through our own power we cannot be obedient. She is in NO way excusing sin and stating that it cannot be overcome! She states that Christ made a way of escape. Praise the Lord!

Let's read th paragraph which immediately precedes the above paragraph.

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The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

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Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. . . . {Mar 225.1}

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {Mar 225.2}

Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong. {Mar 225.3}

The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel any one to sin. The will must consent, the heart must yield, or passion cannot overbear reason, nor iniquity triumph over righteousness. {Mar 225.4}

If you will stand under the bloodstained banner of Prince Emmanuel, faithfully doing His service, you need never yield to temptation; for One stands by your side who is able to keep you from falling. {Mar 225.5}

We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . [Eph. 2:1-6 quoted.] . . . {Mar 225.6}

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. {Mar 225.7}

In short, holding a stance that through Christ we cannot overcome sin we deny Christ's power over sin and uphold satan's claim that God's Law cannot be kept. We by default ascribe more power to satan and temptation than we ascribe to God's Power to save us FROM sin. My Bible tells me that Christ has power over all sin!

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Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Romans 6-8 can be very difficult to understand but it is the heart of the Gospel. We desperately need to study and understand these chapters! It is our job to CHOOSE who we are going to serve day by day, moment by moment, Then Christ can

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Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

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Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

I praise God that He provided a way of escape! Who would WANT to continue in sin? Sin cost our dear Saviour excruciating pain, agony and death!

[Woody]

Thanks praise Him .

I would like to comment on what you said below ...

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Can ALL sin be overcome? Absolutely! THROUGH CHRIST!

Amen. This brings us to Ellen's statement that there is NO excuse for sin.

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"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

And with this I fully agree. But it is a shame that we willfully decide not to get close to God and by this deliberate choice ... we sin.

Thank you for pointing this out to us. And Welcome.

[Woody]

And what do you think of this statement ....

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"Here are revealed the conditions of success. To make God's grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing." MYP 147

[John317]

Lives of John and Judas Contrasted

The world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the

will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:17

John and his fellow disciples were in a school in which Christ was

teacher. . . . John treasured every lesson and constantly sought to

bring his life into harmony with the Divine Pattern. The lessons of

Jesus, setting forth meekness, humility, and love as essential to growth

in grace and a fitness for his work, were of the highest value to John.

. . .

An instructive lesson may be drawn from the striking contrast

between the character of John and that of Judas. John was a living

illustration of sanctification. On the other hand, Judas possessed a

form of godliness, while his character was more satanic than divine. He

professed to be a disciple of Christ, but in words and in works denied

Him.

Judas had the same precious opportunities as had John to study and

to imitate the Pattern. He listened to the lessons of Christ, and his

character might have been transformed by divine grace. But while John

was earnestly warring against his own faults and seeking to assimilate

to Christ, Judas was violating his conscience, yielding to temptation,

and fastening upon himself habits of dishonesty that would transform him

into the image of Satan.

These two disciples represent the Christian world. All profess to

be Christ's followers; but while one class walk in humility and

meekness, learning of Jesus, the other show that they are not doers of

the Word, but hearers only. One class are sanctified through the truth;

the other know nothing of the transforming power of divine grace. The

former are daily dying to self, and are overcoming sin. The latter are

indulging their own lusts, and becoming the servants of Satan.

>From My Life Today - Page 258

[John317]

Both [John the Beloved and Judas] were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan.

Such transformation of character as is seen in the life of John is ever the result of communion with Christ. There may be marked defects in the character of an individual, yet when he becomes a true disciple of Christ, the power of divine grace transforms and sanctifies him. Beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, he is changed from glory to glory, until he is like Him whom he adores.

John was a teacher of holiness, and in his letters to the church he laid down unerring rules for the conduct of Christians. "Every man that hath this hope in him," he wrote, "purifieth himself, even as He is pure." "He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." 1 John 3:3; 2:6. He taught that the Christian must be pure in heart and life. Never should he be satisfied with an empty profession. As God is holy in His sphere, so fallen man, through faith in Christ, is to be holy in his sphere.

"This is the will of God," the apostle Paul wrote, "even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. The sanctification of the church is God's object in all His dealings with His people. He has chosen them from eternity, that they might be holy. He gave His Son to die for them, that they might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, divested of all the littleness of self. From them Her requires a personal work, a personal surrender. God can be honored by those who profess to believe in Him, only as they are conformed to His image and controlled by His Spirit. Then, as witnesses for the Saviour, they may make known what divine grace has done for them. AA 558, 559

[John317]

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. "If we," says John, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8, 10, 9.

There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord's, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments," John wrote, "is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him." 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24.

John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

There are many who, though striving to obey God's commandments, have little peace or joy. This lack in their experience is the result of a failure to exercise faith. They walk as it were in a salt land, a parched wilderness. They claim little, when they might claim much; for there is no limit to the promises of God. Such ones do not correctly represent the sanctification that comes through obedience to the truth. The Lord would have all His sons and daughters happy, peaceful, and obedient. Through the exercise of faith the believer comes into possession of these blessings. Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed.

Prayer is heaven's ordained means of success in the conflict with sin and the development of Christian character. The divine influences that come in answer to the prayer of faith will accomplish in the soul of the suppliant all for which he pleads. For the pardon of sin, for the Holy Spirit, for a Christlike temper, for wisdom and strength to do His work, for any gift He has promised, we may ask; and the promise is, "Ye shall receive."

It was in the mount with God that Moses beheld the pattern of that wonderful building that was to be the abiding place of His glory. It is in the mount with God--in the secret place of communion--that we are to contemplate His glorious ideal for humanity. In all ages, through the medium of communion with heaven, God has worked out His purpose for His children, by unfolding gradually to their minds the doctrines of grace. His manner of imparting truth is illustrated in the words, "His going forth is prepared as the morning." Hosea 6:3. He who places himself where God can enlighten him, advances, as it were, from the partial obscurity of dawn to the full radiance of noonday.

True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection. Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all.

The reason many in this age of the world make no greater advancement in the divine life is because they interpret the will of God to be just what they will to do. While following their own desires, they flatter themselves that they are conforming to God's will. These have no conflicts with self. There are others who for a time are successful in the struggle against their selfish desire for pleasure and ease. They are sincere and earnest, but grow weary of protracted effort, of daily death, of ceaseless turmoil. Indolence seems inviting, death to self repulsive; and they close their drowsy eyes and fall under the power of temptation instead of resisting it. AA 562-565

[John317]

1) The emphasis is on Paul's victories and triumphs over sin and self in his steadfast tread heavenward.

2) Paul did not claim to be sinless or nor did he boast of his attainments.

3) We can obey the commandments of God, and many do obey, and many hearts are in harmony with the precepts of God's law;

It is NOT true, then, that no one can obey the commandments of God.

Neither is it true that no one's heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT OBEY GOD AND THAT OUR HEARTS CANNOT BE IN HARMONY WITH GOD'S LAW?

a) "True love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments";

Again, it is obvious from this statement that there are Christians who do obey all of God's commandments. Otherwise the above statement would mean that no one has true love for God.

Obedience is the fruit of faith and love;

It is clear then that there are those who do obey out of faith and love.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE REALLY OBEYS?

c) If we abide in Christ... our actions and thoughts, etc., will be in harmony with the will of God;

Obviously there are those whose actions and thoughts are in harmony with the will of God. Otherwise the statement means that no one abides in Christ.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE CAN HAVE THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS IN HARMONY WITH THE WILL OF GOD?

d) The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law;

It is obvious from this statement that there are those whose hearts are in harmony with God's law. Otherwise it is saying no one's heart is sanctified.

e) Sanctification comes through obedience to the truth;

Can anyone obey the truth? Obviously so, or it would be saying there is no such thing as sanctification.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE REALLY KNOWS THE TRUTH, MUCH LESS OBEYS IT?

Sure and certain promises for those who believe them and put them into practice:

f) "Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed;"

g) "The divine influences that come in answer to the prayer of faith will accomplish in the soul of the suppliant all for which he pleads;"

h) "Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed."

[Robert]

Can ALL sin be overcome? Absolutely!

Yes...if! The problem is threefold -i.e., you must be perfect in these three areas:

1] Perfect assurance of salvation.

2] Perfect knowledge of God's agape love.

3] Perfect surrender of the "flesh" to God's Spirit.

If you perfectly understand God's agape love and are perfectly walking in the Spirit, then yes, Christ could defeat all sin in your life. But in order to do this you must have the full assurance of salvation or your motive for your good works will be egocentric and sinful, i.e., your motive will be either for a reward or fear of punishment.

The Apostle John states that, "If we say we have no sin" we stand deceived (see 1 John 1:8). BTW, EGW doesn't teach that we can be sinless in performance. Here's her view:

-BC- AA

-TI- The Acts of the Apostles

-CN- 55

-CT- Transformed by Grace

-PR- 03

-PG- 560

Sanctification [spiritual growth] is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. [i.e., your growth is over a lifetime] It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin ["walking in the Spirit"], and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. [i.e., overcome the flesh] We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns [and he's still alive], we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome [i.e., sins of repetition]; so long as life shall last [and sanctification is the work of a lifetime], there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [i.e., I have fully overcome the flesh and all sin]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Paul himself expressed frustration of every day struggles and failures: "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do" I know that churches today are filled with saints that are far stronger and less selfish than Paul. Especially those who know the "shoulds", but hardly practice these. Does it mean that they are not saved? Let's not minimize the grace of God as this view leads some to stone people, maybe not physically... but psychologically and verbally. Instead of encouragement and support, people who need these the most get criticism and rejection. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Romans 7 is not the "norm" for Christians. The man of Romans 7 is not living by the Spirit. Notice that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit in the description of this man's life.

John's partially right and partially wrong. He's right that there's no mention of the Spirit, but he is wrong that the man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit.

For example since I am a born again Christian I have God's Spirit living in me. Then why do I sin? Because I try to use my will power (my converted mind) against my sin nature instead of letting the Spirit have the fight. The Spirit is there, but I don't always surrender - i.e., give Him permission to take control of my nature. The man of Romans 7 is doing the same thing, but there's no condemnation for his or my failure. Why? By faith I stand perfect "in Christ" and the law can't touch me.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Romans 7 is not the "norm" for Christians. The man of Romans 7 is not living by the Spirit. Notice that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit in the description of this man's life.

[/quote']

John's partially right and partially wrong. He's right that there's no mention of the Spirit, but he is wrong that the man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit.

For example since I am a born again Christian I have God's Spirit living in me. Then why do I sin? Because I try to use my will power (my converted mind) against my sin nature instead of letting the Spirit have the fight. The Spirit is there, but I don't always surrender - i.e., give Him permission to take control of my nature. The man of Romans 7 is doing the same thing, but there's no condemnation for his or my failure. Why? By faith I stand perfect "in Christ" and the law can't touch me.

The man of Romans 7 has been convicted of his sin, certainly. However, the Holy Spirit's working on our hearts does not necessarily result in justification or in having faith in Christ. Many people are convicted but reject that conviction and go on in their Christ-less lives. The Holy Spirit's conviction is not the same as salvation or having the Holy Spirit.

Please show from Romans 7 itself that the man described there has the Holy Spirit in the experience referred to in verses 13- 25.

The reason he can't be said to "have the Holy Spirit" is that his experience doesn't dovetail with what the rest of Paul's letters, as well as John's, say about what it means to "have the Spirit." For instance, compare Romans 6 and 8, and 1 John 3 with the man of Romans 7. The Holy Spirit brings freedom and liberty and does not result in a person being continually unable to do what the Holy Spirit wants him to do. The man of Romans 7 says he cannot do right. Where in the Bible does it say that a man who "has the Holy Spirit" cannot do right but MUST always do wrong? Yet, according to Romans 7: 19, this is precisely the experience of the man of Romans 7.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: praise Him

Can ALL sin be overcome? Absolutely!

Yes...if! The problem is threefold -i.e., you must be perfect in these three areas:

1] Perfect assurance of salvation.

2] Perfect knowledge of God's agape love.

3] Perfect surrender of the "flesh" to God's Spirit.

If you perfectly understand God's agape love and are perfectly walking in the Spirit, then yes, Christ could defeat all sin in your life. But in order to do this you must have the full assurance of salvation or your motive for your good works will be egocentric and sinful, i.e., your motive will be either for a reward or fear of punishment.

The Apostle John states that, "If we say we have no sin" we stand deceived (see 1 John 1:8). BTW, EGW doesn't teach that we can be sinless in performance. Here's her view:

-BC- AA

-TI- The Acts of the Apostles

-CN- 55

-CT- Transformed by Grace

-PR- 03

-PG- 560

Sanctification [spiritual growth] is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. [i.e., your growth is over a lifetime] It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin ["walking in the Spirit"], and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. [i.e., overcome the flesh] We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns [and he's still alive], we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome [i.e., sins of repetition]; so long as life shall last [and sanctification is the work of a lifetime], there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [i.e., I have fully overcome the flesh and all sin]

The quotes are good ones, Robert. None of the above contradicts, when correctly understood, the rest of the things Ellen White says on the subject. For one thing, no one is saying that "we have no sin." No one is saying "we have attained," so why do you keep going back to that same old hobby horse? It only shows that you can't get beyond that point. You have to think beyond that box.

Please look at these quotes based on post #166305 and then answer a few questions about each one:

1) We can obey the commandments of God, and many do obey, and many hearts are in harmony with the precepts of God's law;

It is NOT true, then, that no one can obey the commandments of God.

Neither is it true that no one's heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT OBEY GOD AND THAT OUR HEARTS CANNOT BE IN HARMONY WITH GOD'S LAW?

2) "True love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments";

Again, it is obvious from this statement that there are Christians who do obey all of God's commandments. Otherwise the above statement would mean that no one has true love for God.

" Obedience is the fruit of faith and love;"

It is clear then that there are those who do obey out of faith and love.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE REALLY OBEYS?

3) "If we abide in Christ... our actions and thoughts, etc., will be in harmony with the will of God;"

Obviously there are those whose actions and thoughts are in harmony with the will of God. Otherwise the statement means that no one abides in Christ.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE CAN HAVE THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS IN HARMONY WITH THE WILL OF GOD?

[John317]

I agree with all of your post. Thank you!!!!

[fccool]

I don't think that there was anything that I really need to add to the posts above to clarify what I believe is the Biblical position of sin and it's relation to salvation. We should not sin! Bible makes it very clear. We should walk in the spirit, and not in flesh. Bible makes it very clear too. Yet it is very clear that genuine believers fall, and make mistakes. It does not diminish the salvation experience, but strengthens it! All of us learn from our mistakes unfortunately. My view is by no means deliberate sin to make grace abound, and all of what was posted above I agree. BUT let's not forget the world that we live in and that WE WILL FALL AT TIMES.

If you can say that over past day/week/month/year you have not committed a deliberate sin that you regret I'd like to know that. Does that one deliberate sin canceled out your salvation, and you have to be re-saved? Of course not! One of the indicators that you are saved is the awareness of sin and it is a burden when you commit it. It is not something that saved person can go through without some burdened heart. If you do something you know is wrong and you don't care, then it might be the first indicator that something is wrong with your salvation experience.

And yes! I believe that it is possible to stop sinning deliberately. But nowhere in the Bible does God separate and excuse sins of omission (or I "I was not aware of it" sins). There are no explicit statements or additions of the words "deliberate" and "unintentional". There are none. Something to think about here, when you separate between these two.

[Woody]

Some very good points and insights. Thanks.

[John317]

I don't think that there was anything that I really need to add to the posts above to clarify what I believe is the Biblical position of sin and it's relation to salvation. We should not sin! Bible makes it very clear. We should walk in the spirit, and not in flesh. Bible makes it very clear too. Yet it is very clear that genuine believers fall, and make mistakes. It does not diminish the salvation experience, but strengthens it! All of us learn from our mistakes unfortunately. My view is by no means deliberate sin to make grace abound, and all of what was posted above I agree. BUT let's not forget the world that we live in and that WE WILL FALL AT TIMES.

If you can say that over past day/week/month/year you have not committed a deliberate sin that you regret I'd like to know that. Does that one deliberate sin canceled out your salvation, and you have to be re-saved? Of course not! One of the indicators that you are saved is the awareness of sin and it is a burden when you commit it. It is not something that saved person can go through without some burdened heart. If you do something you know is wrong and you don't care, then it might be the first indicator that something is wrong with your salvation experience.

And yes! I believe that it is possible to stop sinning deliberately. But nowhere in the Bible does God separate and excuse sins of omission (or I "I was not aware of it" sins). There are no explicit statements or additions of the words "deliberate" and "unintentional". There are none. Something to think about here, when you separate between these two.

1 John 3: 1-10 is not saying Christians who are truly born from above will not commit sin. It says that people who have the nature, or seed, of God in them (v. 9) "cannot practice sinning because he is born of God." It's a willful, deliberate PRACTICE of sin.

The apostle John says that those who are born of the Spirit "practice righteousness," whereas those who do not have the Spirit deliberately, knowingly, and habitually practice sin.

Therefore, again, neither the Bible nor Ellen White say that Christians do not fall short of God's glory or that Christians never fall into sin. What they both teach is that "no one who abides in Him deliberately, knowingly, and habitually commits and practices sin" (1 John 3: 6, Amplified Version).

The problem here is that there are those who deny that anyone obeys God's commandments, even though both the Bible and Ellen White teach otherwise.

1 John 3: 1-10 teaches that those who are born from above do not practice sin, but there are those who say the Bible is wrong and that all Christians practice willful sin.

Ellen White certainly separates deliberate and intentional, rebellious sins from those that arise out of ignorance. God doesn't look upon all sins as exactly alike. If a person commits a sin out of ignorance or without intending to, God does not see that sin the same as He sees a deliberate and planned murder. That is obvious from scripture. God only sent a prophet to David about the murder of Bathsheba's husband, not about the many other sins David committed.

1 John 3: 1-10 is not saying a Christian who has the Spirit in his life will never commit sin. It says he will not practice willful sinning. There's a big difference. If there is no difference, John could not have said what he does. Compare 1 John 1: 8-10 with 1 John 3: 1-10. There in the first chapter, it is plain that Christians cannot rightly claim to be without sin or never to have committed sin. "If anyone should sin, we have an advocate...." (2: 1). So it is plain that he is not saying that Christians cannot sin. He is talking about the continued practice and willfulness of the sin.

[LifeHiscost]

He manages to do this because he is a sinner and it just comes natural. It's not hard to do at all.

"HOWEVER, BRETHREN, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [ unable to talk yet!]" 1 Corinthians 3:1 AMP

"...be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],

And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness." Ephesians 4:23-25 AMP

Regards!

[John317]

Quote:

How can a believer "practice" - present, ongoing, willful violation of the principles of God's gov't?

How? He manages to do this because he is a sinner and it just comes natural. It's not hard to do at all. But while we find it easy to sin ... Jesus finds it easy to save those who love Him.

Would you so easily practice sin if you knew that when you commit a deliberate sin, it was going to cost the life of your son?

The reason so many people commit sin so nonchalantly is that they don't hate the sin like God hates it.

We will hate sin more and more as we fall deeper in love with Jesus Christ and see what it did and still does to Him.

So the secret of stopping our sinning is to see it from God's perspective and to hate it because we see more clearly what it has done and what it is continuing to do. Only the Holy Spirit can make us see.

It is one reason John says those who have God's seed, or nature, do not continue to practice sin. We must pray that God will give us His nature. Otherwise we'll be blind and go right on sinning willfully and deliberately.

[LifeHiscost]

Wait until trouble really comes your way (like the time of trouble) and if you are looking to your experience instead of who you are "in Christ" in the heavenly places you will abandon Christ.

Rob

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" 2 Peter 2:9 KJV

"But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NKJV

Regards!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Wait until trouble really comes your way (like the time of trouble) and if you are looking to your experience instead of who you are "in Christ" in the heavenly places you will abandon Christ.

Rob

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" 2 Peter 2:9 KJV

"But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NKJV

Regards!

What do these quotes have to do with "if you are looking to your experience"?

[Robert]

Where in the Bible does it say that a man who "has the Holy Spirit" cannot do right but MUST always do wrong? Yet, according to Romans 7: 19, this is precisely the experience of the man of Romans 7.

[John317]