Baptized for the dead?

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Of course, the Adventist teach they are "completely lost" anyway by being annihilated at the death of the body. Where as Christianity properly teaches that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul. We know that Christ comforted his soon to be martryed disciples by promising them, that when THEY "kill the body" THE SAME PEOPLE CANNOT KILL THE SOUL". Because the soul is spirit and is not composed of material things of this earth...

This is not the Seventh-day Adventist position.

In Matt. 10: 28, what is destroyed in hell? It says plainly that people are not merely souls or spirits in hell, but that both body and soul will be destroyed in hell. This proves that people are not taken to hell as disembodied spirits but they will have bodies at that time. Jesus is talking about real, literal, physical fire, and real people with real bodies.

Isaiah 1: 28 tells what will happen to them. They will be annihilated, which is the meaning of the Hebrew word there. (See Modern Language Bible, or New Berkeley Version.) They will be consumed.

Let me ask you something here. When the disciples were martyred, what happened to them. Where do you believe they are at this time?

[/quote']

Quote:

This proves that people are not taken to hell as disembodied spirits but they will have bodies at that time.

So what? Adventism teaches that any mean human being to do what Christ can do! In Fact, Adventism teach that humans should be much more feared the Christ. Because, Christ will only punish you for a few seconds, while the mean person on earth will torment you for hours, days, weeks, months and even years.

[John317]

If you apply Adventist teaching on the soul, Mt.10:28 would read something like this: "FEAR (the wicked) HIM, WHO CAN KILL BOTH BODY AND SOUL, and not Christ who will only torment you for few seconds. For the wicked can torment you for an hour, days, months, years, while Christ will simply give you sleep".

Would you like it if I started putting words in your mouth? That is what you are doing here, because Adventists believe no such things as you are saying here. Maybe this is the conclusion you draw, but it is not at all representative of Adventist thinking.

I thought you wanted to exchange serious dialogue and attempt to gain a true understanding of what Adventists believe. Isn't that of importance? I know when I study with people, I am not interested in misunderstanding what they believe. It is best to know and have a correct understanding of the Adventist position. What good will it do you to go off misunderstanding what we believe?

I'd suggest getting a few of our books and studying what we teach. It sounds like you are reading some badly argued books opposed to SDA beliefs. That is not a good idea. When I study the believes of some group, I want to get all my knowledge of what they believe by studying their own books and literature. Otherwise you are liable to draw wrong conclusions.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- This proves that people are not taken to hell as disembodied spirits but they will have bodies at that time.

So what? Adventism teaches that any mean human being to do what Christ can do! In Fact, Adventism teach that humans should be much more feared the Christ. Because, Christ will only punish you for a few seconds, while the mean person on earth will torment you for hours, days, weeks, months and even years.

No, we do not teach this. But if you want to believe something false, you are welcome to it. I just thought you wanted to know what Adventist actually believe, not what you or other people might think we believe.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

If you apply Adventist teaching on the soul, Mt.10:28 would read something like this: "FEAR (the wicked) HIM, WHO CAN KILL BOTH BODY AND SOUL, and not Christ who will only torment you for few seconds. For the wicked can torment you for an hour, days, months, years, while Christ will simply give you sleep".

Would you like it if I started putting words in your mouth? That is what you are doing here, because Adventists believe no such things as you are saying here. Maybe this is the conclusion you draw, but it is not at all representative of Adventist thinking.

I thought you wanted to exchange serious dialogue and attempt to gain a true understanding of what Adventists believe. Isn't that of importance? I know when I study with people, I am not interested in misunderstanding what they believe. It is best to know and have a correct understanding of the Adventist position. What good will it do you to go off misunderstanding what we believe?

I'd suggest getting a few of our books and studying what we teach. It sounds like you are reading some badly argued books opposed to SDA beliefs. That is not a good idea. When I study the believes of some group, I want to get all my knowledge of what they believe by studying their own books and literature. Otherwise you are liable to draw wrong conclusions.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I said, "if you apply Adventist teaching...". Okay, here a chance to set me straight.

1. Is it or is it not true...That Adventism teaches that Christ will NOT torment the wicked for NOT EVEN AN HOUR, A DAY, A MONTH, OR A YEAR?

2. Is it or is it not true that... any mean spirited man can according to Adventist beliefs, "destroy both body and soul" in a fire, even a self made fire???

Is that correct?

[John317]

Yes, the Adventist teach that the wicked can:

1. Kill the body

2. Kill the Soul too.

...

No, we do not believe that the wicked can destroy the soul.

What does it mean to destroy the soul?

Let's discuss the soul.

Where does the Bible first describe it?

Turn to Genesis 1: 28 and 2: 7. What does it say? What constitutes a living soul?

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Yes, the Adventist teach that the wicked can:

1. Kill the body

2. Kill the Soul too.

...

No, we do not believe that the wicked can destroy the soul.

What does it mean to destroy the soul?

Let's discuss the soul.

Where does the Bible first describe it?

Turn to Genesis 1: 28 and 2: 7. What does it say? What constitutes a living soul?

Answer: So then, you believe the soul is immortal and cannot be destroyed when someone you lose your life.. Is that true?

[John317]

I'd suggest getting a few of our books and studying what we teach. It sounds like you are reading some badly argued books opposed to SDA beliefs. That is not a good idea. When I study the believes of some group, I want to get all my knowledge of what they believe by studying their own books and literature. Otherwise you are liable to draw wrong conclusions.

Quote:

HUMBLE-- I didn't put words in your mouth. I said, "if you apply Adventist teaching...". Okay, here a chance to set me straight.

1. Is it or is it not true...That Adventism teaches that Christ will NOT torment the wicked for NOT EVEN AN HOUR, A DAY, A MONTH, OR A YEAR?

2. Is it or is it not true that... any mean spirited man can according to Adventist beliefs, "destroy both body and soul" in a fire, even a self made fire???

Is that correct?

I shouldn't even be talking to you about this because it is obvious you haven't the faintest notion of what Adventists believe about death of the wicked.

Seriously, why don't you study first? When I talk to Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon's or whoever, I like to know what they believe form their own books, and not make a fool of myself by talking as if I know a lot when I obviously don't.

The answer to your questions above is NO to both of them.

Go study. Start with the info below. There are also lots of books by SDAs on the subject.

I will be glad to talk to you about these things after you stop telling me what I believe. I don't do this to you. I want to really understand what you say and I don't tell you what you believe. I wait for you to tell me. That is the only way to understand people and know what they actually believe. Here's a link to what we believe on this subject if you want to learn:

http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/brfthc/chapter_103.htm

In what condition was man created?

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that Thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels." Heb. 2:6, 7.

What is the nature of angels?

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:35, 36.

What are angels called?

"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire." Heb. 1:7.

What is the difference between the two Adams?

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." 1 Cor. 15:45.

Adam was made a living soul; but was he not a spiritual man?

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." 1 Cor. 15:46.

When does man become a spiritual being?

"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body, There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:44.

To what does the sowing refer?

"That which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die." 1 Cor. 15:36.

NOTE. - Man does not have the undying, spiritual nature of the angels until the resurrection. Then, if righteous, he cannot die anymore ( Luke 20:36), because he is "equal unto the angels."

How is man's nature defined?

"Shall mortal man be more just than God?" Job 4:17. NOTE. - Mortal. "Subject to death." Webster.

What is God's nature?

"Now unto the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." 1 Tim. 1:17.

NOTE. - Immortal. "Exempt from liability to die." Webster.

Of what was man formed in the beginning?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground." Gen. 2:7.

What act made him a living soul?

"And [God] breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7.

Are others besides man called "living souls" in the Bible?

"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3. (See Gen. 1:30, margin.)

Do other creatures besides man have the "breath of life?"

"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of foul, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man; all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." Gen. 7:21, 22.

Is theirs the same breath as man's?

"As the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast; for all is vanity." Ecc. 3:19.

The breath of life from God was breathed into man's nostrils in the beginning. What does Job call that which is in the nostrils?

"All the while my breath is in me. and the spirit of God is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.

When man gives up the spirit, what becomes of it?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl. 12:7.

NOTE. - That is, the spirit of life by which man lived, and which was only loaned to him of God, goes back to the great Author of life. It is His, and man can have it eternally, only as a gift from God, through Jesus Christ. (Rom. 6:23.)When the spirit goes back to God, the dust, which was in the beginning made a "living soul," goes back as it was, to the earth.

Can one have the spirit of life with him eternally. unless he has Christ?

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.

Why were the first guilty pair driven from the tree of life?

"And now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." Gen. 3:22.

What was done to keep man away from the tree of life?

"So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen. 3:24.

How are all men in the natural state regarded?

"We all... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph. 2:3.

If the wrath of God abides on a person, of what does it deprive him?

"He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36.

Through whom is the sinner saved from wrath?

"Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom. 5:9.

When the sinner has been converted, what then is his prospect for life?

"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory." Col. 3:3, 4.

The word immortal occurs but once in the English Bible (1 Tim. 1:17) , and is there applied to God; is any other said to have immortality?

"Who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords: who only hath immortality." 1 Tim. 6:15, 16.

How is this desirable boon brought to light?

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Tim 1:10.

NOTE. - Then without the gospel one cannot have immortality, but the death penalty must abide on him.

How does man obtain immortality?

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life." Rom. 2:7.

NOTE. - One does not need to seek for a thing which he already possesses.

When will the faithful receive immortality?

"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor. 15:51, 52.

What is then to be swallowed up?

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor. 15:54.

How is this victory gained?

"But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 15:51.

SUMMARY. - We have found that man was made of the dust of the ground, and caused to live by the breath, or spirit, of life from God. The clay thus animated, not the breath of life, is called a "living soul:" or creature, according to the original text. Other creatures live by the same process, and some of them, at least, are plainly called living souls. When man dies, he knows nothing until he lives again, simply because the vitalizing element that caused him to live and move and think has been taken from him, and gone back to its original Possessor. Unless that were brought back to man, he would be forever unconscious in death. But Christ, who is the believer's life, is to appear, and bring back to those who seek for it, that life which they forfeited through sin. It is thus that man obtains immortality.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

No, we do not believe that the wicked can destroy the soul.

What does it mean to destroy the soul?

Let's discuss the soul.

Where does the Bible first describe it?

Turn to Genesis 1: 28 and 2: 7. What does it say? What constitutes a living soul? [/quote']

Answer: So then, you believe the soul is immortal and cannot be destroyed when someone you lose your life.. Is that true?

Does the Bible say anywhere that the soul is immortal? If you believe it does, tell me the verse.

[John317]

If the righteous dead are already aware of being in the presence of God's grace, how can it be said that they will be completely lost or perished if they are not resurrected?

Where do you believe the righteous dead are at this moment?

[B Humble]

Okay, I understand now, you all have borrowed the old Herbert and GT Armstrong stance that the spirit goes on in some manner but isn't conscience. Nonetheless, you have it, though I think won't admit it, that the soul is immortal, if it can't be killed. Because you can't have it both ways.

I see a great deal of proof-texting in your reply that is simply scripture applied totally out of context. For example:

Quote:

"Who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords: who only hath immortality." 1 Tim. 6:15, 16.

A student of the scriptures would know better than claim this verse teaches that ONLY Christ has immortality. We all know that the angels have immortality as well, they don't have it in the same way that Christ has it, which is self-sustaining immortality as Paul meant. The Apostle Paul certainly didn't mean that angels were mortal and could die. On and On and On..

There is all kinds of that sort of thing in your above reply. I don't have time to address all the errors, but they are numerous. Maybe tomorrow, I'll get to them.

[Nan]

Okay, I understand now, you all have borrowed the old Herbert and GT Armstrong stance that the spirit goes on in some manner but isn't conscience. Nonetheless, you have it, though I think won't admit it, that the soul is immortal, if it can't be killed. Because you can't have it both ways.

I see a great deal of proof-texting in your reply that is simply scripture applied totally out of context. For example:

Quote:

"Who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords: who only hath immortality." 1 Tim. 6:15, 16.

A student of the scriptures would know better than claim this verse teaches that ONLY Christ has immortality. We all know that the angels have immortality as well, they don't have it in the same way that Christ has it, which is self-sustaining immortality as Paul meant. The Apostle Paul certainly didn't mean that angels were mortal and could die. On and On and On..

There is all kinds of that sort of thing in your above reply. I don't have time to address all the errors, but they are numerous. Maybe tomorrow, I'll get to them.

I do not know the Greek root of "hath" in that context - does it imply intrinsic ownership, not imparted from outside?

That is the kind of immortality God has.

The angels on the other hand would appear to have conditional immortality - assuming you believe Lucifer had immortality at one stage and is later prophesied to come to a complete end. While I do not believe it happens, I would see it as possible that an angel who sins would lose immortality even in these times.

Hence I find your dismissal of that text not very convincing to your argument.

You may find my explanation the same....in which case we would just agree to not agree.

[John317]

Okay, I understand now, you all have borrowed the old Herbert and GT Armstrong stance that the spirit goes on in some manner but isn't conscience....

No, friend, wrong on both counts. Armstrong came long after Adventists.

Wish you would explain about what your understanding is of our belief about the spirit. Not sure where you got the impression that we believe the spirit goes on in some manner.

The spirit is essentially the breath. It is not a conscious entity that survives the death of the body. The spirit is the breath of life that God breathed into us so that we became living souls, or living nephish, or living creatures or beings.

OK we can study these things again later.

By the way, Martin Luther believed essentially what I am telling you, as have hundreds of great Christians throughout the centuries. If you go on to any Christian university where the Bible is taught, you find professors of theology who agree with what I am saying. It is not quite as unusual as you might think.

Why don't you give me the verses that you believe make the strongest case for the immortality of the soul?

Here is the issue for me, after studying this question for many years, and reading lots of books that take the view of the immortality of the soul:

I do not believe that the Bible teaches both the immortality of the soul and the non-immortality of the soul. It does not teach two different, contradictory views of the nature of man and of what happens when a man dies. I believe the Bible is clear about it. I don't think God is playing mind games with us.

The problem is this: that there are lots of clear verses on the topic, but there are some verses that are not so clear, and then there are a few verses that seem to teach that the dead are conscious. For instance, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, and the promise of Christ to the dying thief, as well as two or three others.

However, it is always a rule of Bible interpretation that we should let the clear verses explain the unclear ones, and not the other way around.

By the way, have you studied the Hebrew view of the nature of man? They had a holistic view of man. In other words, they did not believe that man is made up of a spirit or soul that inhabited the body and survived the death of the individual.

The Hebrews were different in this way from the Greek, who saw the soul as immortal and inhabiting the body. The Greeks got their views on this from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. Herodotus (c. 400 BC), the "father of history," writes about this in his Histories in Book 2, paragraph 123. It's also well known that the Greeks had a great influence on the Hebrews during the intertestamental period. This influence come through very clearly in the books of the Maccabees, where at one point, there are prayers said for the dead. This never occurs in the books of the Hebrew Canon, and for good reason.

[John317]

I do not know the Greek root of "hath" in that context - does it imply intrinsic ownership, not imparted from outside?

That is the kind of immortality God has.

The angels on the other hand would appear to have conditional immortality - assuming you believe Lucifer had immortality at one stage and is later prophesied to come to a complete end. While I do not believe it happens, I would see it as possible that an angel who sins would lose immortality even in these times.

You're right.

1 Tim. 6: 16 says that God "alone HAS immortality." It uses the word ECHO, which means to have, to hold, to possess. It's a present participle and is sometimes (NIV) translated as "is immortal." But the idea is that God alone intrinsically and continuously possesses immortality. The others are immortal as a conditional gift from God. Adam and Eve were made conditionally immortal. That is, they would have been given permanent immortality once they passed the test of faithfulness to God.

I'd like to know what Humble believes about this.

[John317]

1) What did God tell Adam and Eve would be the result if they transgressed by partaking of the forbidden fruit?

"Thou shalt surely die." Gen. 2:17.

2) What did Satan say to Eve concerning this?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die." Gen. 3:4.

NOTE.-This, as far as the record shows, was the first lie,- a direct denial of the word of God. By persuading Eve to accept and believe it, Satan led our first parents to commit sin; and, as "the wages of sin is death," by it, also, he caused their death, and so became, in reality, the first murderer. A lie, therefore, is a twin brother to murder, and one of the most hateful things to God, the "God of truth." See Prov. 6:16-19. "The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment." Prov. 12:19. "All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Rev. 21:8. See also Rev. 21:27; 22:15.

3) What has been the result of sin's entrance into the world?

"By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin." Rom. 5:12. "By one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Verse 19. "The whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 John 5:19. "In Adam all die." 1 Cor. 15:22.

4) What evidence does the Holy Scripture provide that the soul can die?

"The soul that sins shall die." Ezekiel 18: 4, 20. (Notice the soul is the individual.)

5) After a person dies, what does the Bible call him?

A dead nephish, i.e., a dead soul. See Hebrew of Numbers 6: 6.

6) Before a person dies, what does the Bible call him?

A living nephish, i.e., a living soul, or being, or creature. Gen. 2: 7;

7) Are animals also called "living nephish," or living souls? Yes.

Genesis 1: 21-- "And God created... every living nephish that moves...", i.e., creature.

[B Humble]

John, here's the problem for you. The fact is: Adventism teaches that the soul is dormant or unconscious and has no self awareness and unable to be aware of anything, which is THE VERY SAME THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY ARE "DESTROYED" or annihilated. There is not one whit of difference between the two. So for all your discussion of Greek words, it doesn't make a hill of beans. There is not one whit of difference between being annihilated and being so "soul sleeped" that you have no awareness. Accordingly, any mean spirited man can do exactly what Christ can do to you...send you to a place where you have no self awareness.

And, I am absolutely correct in saying that Adventism teaches that it is FAR WORSE THING to fall into the hands of a mere man that would torment him for hours, days, months even years THAN CHRIST'S HANDS!

[John317]

... I am absolutely correct in saying that Adventism teaches that it is FAR WORSE THING to fall into the hands of a mere man that would torment him for hours, days, months even years THAN CHRIST'S HANDS!

I have never heard such a thing said by any Adventist, nor have I ever read it in any book by a Seventh-day Adventist. I certainly don't think that way.

It seems to me you are going by what you think we might think on the basis of what you think we believe.

Perhaps that is how you think someone must think if they reject the immortality of the soul, but believe me, people who believe in the non-immorality of the soul don't think that way at all.

There were quite a few Adventists and also "Jehovah's Witnesses" (who believe similarly to us on this issue) in the Nazi concentration camps. Do you think they were more fearful of the Nazis than they were of God? That is really preposterous. If you talked to them or saw them in the camps, you would know how foolish it is to think they were more fearful of the Nazis than of God.

For one thing, your idea assumes that people serve God out of fear of what God can do to you. That is not based on love, and love casts out fear. People who really love God don't choose to obey Him because of His ability to torture them.

So in whatever way you look at it, it is simply wrong-headed thinking to assume that those who do not believe in the immortality of soul are more afraid of men than of God.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

... I am absolutely correct in saying that Adventism teaches that it is FAR WORSE THING to fall into the hands of a mere man that would torment him for hours, days, months even years THAN CHRIST'S HANDS!

I have never heard such a thing said by any Adventist, nor have I ever read it in any book by a Seventh-day Adventist. I certainly don't think that way.

It seems to me you are going by what you think we might think on the basis of what you think we believe.

Perhaps that is how you think someone must think if they reject the immortality of the soul, but believe me, people who believe in the non-immorality of the soul don't think that way at all.

There were quite a few Adventists and also "Jehovah's Witnesses" (who believe similarly to us on this issue) in the Nazi concentration camps. Do you think they were more fearful of the Nazis than they were of God? That is really preposterous. If you talked to them or saw them in the camps, you would know how foolish it is to think they were more fearful of the Nazis than of God.

For one thing, your idea assumes that people serve God out of fear of what God can do to you. That is not based on love, and love casts out fear. People who really love God don't choose to obey Him because of His ability to torture them.

So in whatever way you look at it, it is simply wrong-headed thinking to assume that those who do not believe in the immortality of soul are more afraid of men than of God.

[John317]

John, here's the problem for you. The fact is: Adventism teaches that the soul is dormant or unconscious and has no self awareness and unable to be aware of anything, which is THE VERY SAME THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY ARE "DESTROYED" or annihilated. There is not one whit of difference between the two. So for all your discussion of Greek words, it doesn't make a hill of beans. There is not one whit of difference between being annihilated and being so "soul sleeped" that you have no awareness. Accordingly, any mean spirited man can do exactly what Christ can do to you...send you to a place where you have no self awareness.

It is certainly true of the dead that once they are dead they know absolutely nothing.

It is also true that after a person is annihilated, he will not be aware of what has happened.

The difference between what a mean spirited man can do and what Christ can do is very significant. The mean spirited man can put you to sleep, from which there is an awakening. Christ raises the person out of sleep-- for that is all it is-- after which, as the Bible says, He is able to destroy both body and soul. That is to say, an individual is utterly destroyed, and will never see consciousness or life again. He comes to an utter end.

In fact this is what the Bible says will happen to the wicked dead. The Bible says that the wicked will be "as if they had not been," and "they will be no more."

I believe that the Bible teaches this very thing-- that, as it says plainly, the dead do not know anything.

Please give all the verses that you know of which teach that after they are dead, people are conscious.

When the righteous die, where do you believe they go or what do you believe happens to them?

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

John, here's the problem for you. The fact is: Adventism teaches that the soul is dormant or unconscious and has no self awareness and unable to be aware of anything, which is THE VERY SAME THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY ARE "DESTROYED" or annihilated. There is not one whit of difference between the two. So for all your discussion of Greek words, it doesn't make a hill of beans. There is not one whit of difference between being annihilated and being so "soul sleeped" that you have no awareness. Accordingly, any mean spirited man can do exactly what Christ can do to you...send you to a place where you have no self awareness.

It is certainly true of the dead that once they are dead they know absolutely nothing.

It is also true that after a person is annihilated, he will not be aware of what has happened.

The difference between what a mean spirited man can do and what Christ can do is very significant. The mean spirited man can put you to sleep, from which there is an awakening. Christ raises the person out of sleep-- for that is all it is-- after which, as the Bible says, He is able to destroy both body and soul. That is to say, an individual is utterly destroyed, and will never see consciousness or life again. He comes to an utter end.

In fact this is what the Bible says will happen to the wicked dead. The Bible says that the wicked will be "as if they had not been," and "they will be no more."

I believe that the Bible teaches this very thing-- that, as it says plainly, the dead do not know anything.

Please give all the verses that you know of which teach that after they are dead, people are conscious.

When the righteous die, where do you believe they go or what do you believe happens to them?

[John317]

John, I suggest you re-read Mt.10:28. BECAUSE, IT SAYS YOU SHOULD "FEAR" CHRIST MORE THAN MAN Fear of God, my friend, is the beginning of wisdom. Mt.10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather FEAR HIM who can destroy both soul and body in hell. "

What is the "fear of God" spoken of in the Bible? Is it being fearful of Him?

Does God take pleasure out of scaring them? Does He want us to serve Him out of fear?

Is the angel flying in midheaven in Rev. 14: 7 telling the people of the world to be utterly petrified of God? No, that is not the message of the first of the three angels.

A call to fear God means respect God's authority, stand in awe of His majesty, and trust in Him.

It means that God alone determines the final destiny of men and women. It means that people cannot do this. They may hurt you for a limited time but God alone has the power and ability to take away ALL of your life.

PLEASE NOTICE THAT THE BIBLE SAYS HERE THAT GOD DESTROYS BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN HELL.

That's a lot different from believing people go to hell as a spirit as soon as they die. This says people will have bodies in hell. Both their body and their true selves-- their very lives-- will be utterly destroyed in the fires of hell. They will be made into ashes and be as if they had never been.

See Isaiah 1: 28. Look closely at the Hebrew word here. It is often translated as "perish." Some translate it correctly as "annihilated." (See Modern Language Bible or the New Berkeley Vesion.)

Analyze closely Rev. 20: 11-15. Notice it says death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. What is the lake of fire? It is the second death. So when it says the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, what happens to them? It says they die the second death-- which is eternal and from which there is no awakening.

What is the very next thing that is said in Revelation?

It is that God remakes the earth.

Where were the wicked destroyed? Rev. 20: 9 tells us. They are destroyed on the surface of the earth. But now Rev. 21: 1 says God remakes the earth. Not only that, but 21: 14 says there will be no more death or mourning or crying, for all those kinds of things have passed away. God wipes away every tear.

If that is true, how could there be billions of people still being tormented?

Does God have a torture chamber somewhere in his universe that will never end? Will billions of God's intelligent creatures continue to feel excruciating pain and suffering with out end?

But doesn't the Bible say the fire they suffer is eternal fire? That is the same fire which destroyed Sodom and which the wicked were made to suffer in order to teach us a lesson about the death of the lost. See Jude 7. Evidently the fires that destroyed Sodom and the surrounding cities are considered eternal fire. Why? Because the effects of the fire are forever-- they last without end.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

John, I suggest you re-read Mt.10:28. BECAUSE, IT SAYS YOU SHOULD "FEAR" CHRIST MORE THAN MAN Fear of God, my friend, is the beginning of wisdom. Mt.10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather FEAR HIM who can destroy both soul and body in hell. "

What is the "fear of God" spoken of in the Bible? Is it being afraid of Him?

Does God take pleasure out of scaring them? Does He want us to serve Him out of fear?

Answer: YES! Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

It means respect God's authority, stand in awe of His majesty, and trust in Him.

Answer: It means a lot more than that, my friend!

It means that God alone determines the final destiny of men and women. It means that people cannot do this. They may hurt you for a limited time but God alone has the power and ability to take away ALL of your life.

PLEASE NOTICE THAT THE BIBLE SAYS HERE THAT GOD DESTROYS BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN HELL.

Answer: your problem is that you don't understand the word "destroy"

That's a lot different from believing people go to hell as a spirit as soon as they die. This says people will have bodies in hell. Both their body and their true selves-- their very lives-- will be utterly destroyed in the fires of hell. They will be made into ashes and be as if they had never been.

See Isaiah 1: 28. Look closely at the Hebrew word here. It is often translated as "perish." Some translate it correctly as "annihilated." (See Modern Language Bible or the New Berkeley Vesion.)

Analyze closely Rev. 20: 11-15. Notice it says death and Hades The word translated destroy (apollumi), as used in Mt. 10:28, doesn't mean annihilate.

Beside Rev. 20:10 as proof for this, we also can easily deduce this by examining two other verses where this same Greek word is used but rendered destoryed and lost respectively:

Christ said, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish [apollumi]: but they put new wine into new The word translated destroy (apollumi), as used in Mt. 10:28, doesn't mean annihilate.

Beside Rev. 20:10 as proof for this, we also can easily deduce this by examining two other verses where this same Greek word is used but rendered destoryed and lost respectively:

Christ said, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish [apollumi]: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved "(Mt. 9:17, KJV).

"For this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost [apollumi] and is found." And they began to be merry (Lk. 15:24, NKJV).

Again, this Greek word can't be equated with annihilate. We know this because the wine bottles that perished would still be in existence, but ruined for the purpose for which they were intended. Moreover, the prodigal was not annihilated when he was lost, but was fully conscious in that spiritual state.

To be destroyed [apollumi] as opposed to the Eternal life, means to suffer ruin, to lose the purpose for which you were created and to suffer punishment ultimately by torment. To have eternal life means NOT to have mere cheap existence but to enjoy abundant glorious qualitative life with God, his angels and the saints in heaven. , and both are preserved "(Mt. 9:17, KJV).

"For this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost [apollumi] and is found." And they began to be merry (Lk. 15:24, NKJV).

Again, this Greek word can't be equated with annihilate. We know this because the wine bottles that perished would still be in existence, but ruined for the purpose for which they were intended. Moreover, the prodigal was not annihilated when he was lost, but was fully conscious in that spiritual state.

To be destroyed [apollumi] as opposed to the Eternal life, means to suffer ruin, to lose the purpose for which you were created and to suffer punishment ultimately by torment. To have eternal life means NOT to have mere cheap existence but to enjoy abundant glorious qualitative life with God, his angels and the saints in heaven. thrown into the lake of fire.

What is the lake of fire? It is the second death. So when it says the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, what happens to them? It says they die the second death-- which is eternal and from which there is no awakening.

Answer: Wrong again, it is not some second existence just so God can burn you up and send you into non-existence. What purpose is there in that????? The first death is the first judgment and separation of the soul from God. The second death is the 2nd judgment when the body and soul are punished perpetually forever.

What is the very next thing that is said in Revelation?

It is that God remakes the earth.

Where were the wicked destroyed? Rev. 20: 9 tells us. They are destroyed on the surface of the earth. But now Rev. 21: 1 says God remakes the earth. Not only that, but 21: 14 says there will be no more death or mourning or crying, for all those kinds of things have passed away. God wipes away every tear.

If that is true, how could there be billions of people still being tormented?

Does God have a torture chamber somewhere?

Answer: yes there are in hell, the torment of fire and the pending judgment of both the body and soul in everlasting fire.

But doesn't the Bible say the fire they suffer is eternal fire? That is the same fire which destroyed Sodom and which the wicked were made to suffer in order to teach us a lesson about the death of the lost. See Jude 7. Evidently the fires that destroyed Sodom and the surrounding cities are considered eternal fire. Why? Because the effects of the fire are forever.

You err not knowing the lesson learned from Sodom! The people's lives were cut short were all destroyed and judged immediately and sent to hell to be tormented! That's the lesson!

[John317]

But doesn't the Bible say the fire they suffer is eternal fire? That is the same fire which destroyed Sodom and which the wicked were made to suffer in order to teach us a lesson about the death of the lost. See Jude 7. Evidently the fires that destroyed Sodom and the surrounding cities are considered eternal fire. Why? Because the effects of the fire are forever.

Quote:

You err not knowing the lesson learned from Sodom! The people's lives were cut short were all destroyed and judged immediately and sent to hell to be tormented! That's the lesson!

Read again: the cities were destroyed, or punished, with eternal fire.

The following translations make it clear that Sodom and Gomorrah are said to have been destroyed by eternal fire, and this punishment is similar to the punishment of the wicked at the end of time. God made an example of them and punished them with eternal fire.

English Standard Bible--

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

21st Century KJV--

7 even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Robert Young's Literal--

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

Contemporary English Version--

We should also be warned by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah [a] and the nearby towns. Their people became immoral and did all sorts of sexual sins. Then God made an example of them and punished them with eternal fire.

Darby's--

7as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire.

NASB--

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

CSB--

7 In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

[John317]

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- What is the lake of fire? It is the second death. So when it says the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, what happens to them? It says they die the second death-- which is eternal and from which there is no awakening.

Answer: Wrong again, it is not some second existence just so God can burn you up and send you into non-existence. What purpose is there in that?????

You don't know what the purpose is of the resurrection of the wicked? Why does God do this?

Quote:

The first death is the first judgment and separation of the soul from God. The second death is the 2nd judgment when the body and soul are punished perpetually forever.

Show all of the Bible texts that you believe teach these things:

1) First death is the first judgment.

2) At first death the soul is separated from God.

3) The Second Death is when the body and soul are punished perpetually forever.

.

[John317]