Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Answer: Nan, I'm well aware that the carnal mind would much rather have soul sleep than eternal punishment. .. The carnal mind would rather believe tradition and the false teachings of paganism than be established in Holy Scripture. The word of God does not teach that man is immortal and that the wicked continue to live endlessly. The word of God teaches that sin results in death, not endless burning. In all due respect, my good friend, Humble, you have accepted the false doctrines of the Egyptians, Babylonians, and Greeks which entered into the church through the doctrines of demons, the very doctrines which Paul through the Spirit predicted would come into the church. See 1 Tim. 4: 1. Jesus said he would come for his followers. He did not say they would die and go to Him. See John 14: 3. Please answer the following: Did Jesus ever tell us that when we die we will come and see Him and be with Him? Yes____________ If yes, show verse _______________ No__________________ Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble Thayer stated that aionios means “without end, never to cease, everlasting” (1958, p. 112). It does carry this meaning when it is used with regard to God and to those who are immortal, such as the righteous who are given immortality when Christ returns. See 1 Cor. 15: 53, 54. Romans 2: 7 shows plainly that humans "seek immortality" and will be given "eternal life." This proves conclusively that humans aren't born with any part inherently immortal or capable of living eternally. Therefore it is not possible for anionios to mean "without end" when applied to people as we are presently constituted. People are subject to death. Life ends when we die. That is what death is: an end to life and consciousness. God will raise us up in two resurrections, but without the resurrection, the Bible says all humans would be "completely lost," or "perished." In other words, we would have no opportunity for life or consciousness apart from the gift of life from God at the resurrection. Please respond directly to this and do not simply post a monologue on your beliefs. Post the Bible texts which show that mankind is naturally immortal so that sinners never cease to live and continue endlessly to have consciousness. I answered all your questions in my post. The bible says the man's flesh is mortal, even you all agree that man's soul cannot be killed with the flesh is killed. Christ himself said, that a man's soul cannot be killed when his flesh is killed (Mt.10:28). Again, Christ himself clearly shows in Luke 16:19-31 that the rich man went to hades after his death and suffered "in this flame" and was "tormented in this flame". I answered the whole entire aionos argument and BELIEVE ME YOU ARE NO THAYER. HE WAS THE GREATEST GREEK SCHOLAR THAT EVER LIVED. You didn't read or study my reply. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 JOHN3: 17-- Post the Bible texts which show that mankind is naturally immortal so that sinners never cease to live and continue endlessly to have consciousness. Quote: HUMBLE-- I answered all your questions in my post. ... I answered the whole entire aionos argument and BELIEVE ME YOU ARE NO THAYER. HE WAS THE GREATEST GREEK SCHOLAR THAT EVER LIVED. You didn't read or study my reply. I know Thayer well. Did you know he was a Unitarian? You did not post the Bible texts which show mankind is immortal or has an immortal soul or spirit. Please post those here. Also: Please answer the following: Did Jesus tell us that when we die, we will go immediately to see Him and be with Him? Yes____________ If yes, show verse _______________ Or did Jesus say that He will return for His followers and take them to be where He is? No__________________ Yes________________ What is the blessed hope of the believer-- Death? _________________ Resurrection? _______________ Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Nan Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 When man was created, the union of physical body and the breath of life made him 'a living soul'. It seems rather obvious that if the life departs from the body, the soul is no longer living. And that it will not live again until God restores its life. I am sure there are sophisticated explanations why that is not so.....but I would rather believe the Bible, especially when that concept is reiterated by later authors. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 The bible says the man's flesh is mortal, even you all agree that man's soul cannot be killed with the flesh is killed. Christ himself said, that a man's soul cannot be killed when his flesh is killed (Mt.10:28). Again, Christ himself clearly shows in Luke 16:19-31 that the rich man went to hades after his death and suffered "in this flame" and was "tormented in this flame". Are you saying that Luke 16: 19-31 is not a parable but a description of what happens when a man dies? Shall we analyze Luke 16: 19-21 and see what it says when looked at from that perspective? The parable has Lazarus and the rich man being carried bodily into the afterlife. They are not disembodied souls or spirits. They have bodies. And they can communicate with and see each other. Is this all literally true? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 ... In the text of Luke 16:19-31, Christ gave a story, whether parable or not, it makes no difference.... Of course it makes a difference. If it's a parable, it was intended to teach a particular lesson and was not intended to have all of its details taken in a literal sense. Try to make all of the details teach a literal truth. For one thing, are the dead taken bodily to the bosom of Abraham? Is Abraham's bosom literally the place where all the righteous dead go? Do the dead literally have eyes, tongues, fingers, etc.? If not, then you are in trouble if you try to make it a literal truth of what occurs after death. Is this your strongest case for what happens after death? If not, then post all the strongest points you have from Scripture that teach man is alive and conscious after he dies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 I would not expect a darkened mind with teachings of soul sleep originated in atheism to find "truth" in what I teach. Darkness does not like the light and seeks to shut it out. Humble, do you know who William Tyndale was? He was the first one who translated the Greek NT into English, and the KJV is mostly based on his translation. He believed and taught what you call "soul-sleep." (He was burned at the stake for his faith in Christ.) Martin Luther, the leader of the Reformation, also taught and believe that the dead are not immortal and conscious. So did John Milton ...... I could list hundreds of such great leaders in the Christian church who believed in what you call "soul-sleep." Do you know who these Christians were? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Mr/Ms Humble You have been given many reasons why most people on this board believe as we do. You do not listen. We share a Bible based belief that is not SDA alone. If you do not see things that way, that is your choice and right. You are not being issued with spiritual threats and veiled accusations of deliberately avoiding the truth by others on this forum. I have given you permission to stop warning me, so you will not be held accountable if I am wrong. I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM CONVINCED THAT HE IS ABLE TO GUARD WHAT I HAVE ENTRUSTED TO HIM FOR THAT DAY. [b At your own risk. No problem. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: Nan Mr/Ms Humble You have been given many reasons why most people on this board believe as we do. You do not listen. We share a Bible based belief that is not SDA alone. If you do not see things that way, that is your choice and right. You are not being issued with spiritual threats and veiled accusations of deliberately avoiding the truth by others on this forum. I have given you permission to stop warning me, so you will not be held accountable if I am wrong. I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM CONVINCED THAT HE IS ABLE TO GUARD WHAT I HAVE ENTRUSTED TO HIM FOR THAT DAY. At your own risk. No problem. It's not a risk. It's what the Bible teaches. The Bible calls it building on solid Rock, not on the sand of paganism and church tradition. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble I would not expect a darkened mind with teachings of soul sleep originated in atheism to find "truth" in what I teach. Darkness does not like the light and seeks to shut it out. Humble, Do you know who William Tyndale? He was the first one who translated the Greek NT into English, and the KJV is mostly based on his translation. He believed and taught what you call "soul-sleep." So did Martin Luther, the leader of the German Reformation. So did John Milton ...... I could list hundreds of such great leaders in the Christian church who believed in what you call "soul-sleep." Do you know who these Christians were? I'm aware that Herbert Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, James Russell and thousands of heretics bought into the atheistic rooted belief in soul sleep. Martin Luther, William Tyndale are not anywhere close to the Greek Scholarship of Thayer. I wouldn't trust Martin Luther with my child after what he had to say about himself. Quote
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble At your own risk. No problem. [/quote'] It's not a risk. It's what the Bible teaches. The Bible calls it building on solid Rock, not on the sand of paganism and church tradition. Annihilationism is a tradition of man brought on by the influence of atheism. You hooked into it. The Apostles had no such belief and neither did Christ. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Martin Luther, William Tyndale are not anywhere close to the Greek Scholarship of Thayer. I wouldn't trust Martin Luther with my child after what he had to say about himself. Did you know that Thayer was a Unitarian? Do you know what that is? Thayer was a very good Greek Scholar, of course. I have his Greek Lexicon. What did Martin Luther say about himself? Have you studied the history of Reformation and specifically the life and work of Martin Luther? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble ... In the text of Luke 16:19-31, Christ gave a story, whether parable or not, it makes no difference.... Of course it makes a difference. If it's a parable, it was intended to teach a particular lesson and was not intended to have all of its details taken in a literal sense. Try to make all of the details teach a literal truth. For one thing, are the dead taken bodily to the bosom of Abraham? Is Abraham's bosom literally the place where all the righteous dead go? Do the dead literally have eyes, tongues, fingers, etc.? If not, then you are in trouble if you try to make it a literal truth of what occurs after death. Is this your strongest case for what happens after death? If not, then post all the strongest points you have from Scripture that teach man is alive and conscious after he dies. As noted by Christ and Josephus, these things were real teachings and beliefs of the Jews and Christ and the Apostles. The soul is an image of the body, that is why the Apostles said, they thought they had seen "a ghost" when they saw the image of a man. As such, the soul is able to suffer the pains of the flesh because the pains of the flesh are indelibly imprinted on the soul by the sufferings in this life. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Annihilationism is a tradition of man brought on by the influence of atheism. You hooked into it. The Apostles had no such belief and neither did Christ. Where is your evidence of the truth of this claim? You need to begin responding to the questions and not simply make statements without any kind of Bible evidence. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble Martin Luther, William Tyndale are not anywhere close to the Greek Scholarship of Thayer. I wouldn't trust Martin Luther with my child after what he had to say about himself. Did you know that Thayer was a Unitarian? Do you know what that is? Thayer was a very good Greek Scholar, of course. I have his Greek Lexicon. What did Martin Luther say about himself? Have you studied the history of Reformation and specifically the life and work of Martin Luther? Read his works and see what he had to say about his uncontrollable lusts of the flesh. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Did you know that Thayer was a Unitarian? Do you know what that is? Thayer was a very good Greek Scholar, of course. I have his Greek Lexicon. What did Martin Luther say about himself? Have you studied the history of Reformation and specifically the life and work of Martin Luther? Read his works and see what he had to say about his uncontrollable lusts of the flesh. It's pretty hard to discuss a general statement like that. He wrote about 50 volumes. I'm well acquainted with his writings and his life. It would be too bad to throw out the leader of the Reformation because he made statements about his sins and his weakness. This is not about Martin Luther's sins, however. This is about what the Bible teaches with regards to what happens when we die. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Did you know that Thayer was a Unitarian? Do you know what that is? Thayer was a very good Greek Scholar, of course. I have his Greek Lexicon. What did Martin Luther say about himself? Have you studied the history of Reformation and specifically the life and work of Martin Luther? Read his works and see what he had to say about his uncontrollable lusts of the flesh. Please stay on the topic of what happens when a man dies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Of course it makes a difference. If it's a parable, it was intended to teach a particular lesson and was not intended to have all of its details taken in a literal sense. Try to make all of the details teach a literal truth. For one thing, are the dead taken bodily to the bosom of Abraham? Is Abraham's bosom literally the place where all the righteous dead go? Do the dead literally have eyes, tongues, fingers, etc.? If not, then you are in trouble if you try to make it a literal truth of what occurs after death. Is this your strongest case for what happens after death? If not, then post all the strongest points you have from Scripture that teach man is alive and conscious after he dies. [/quote'] As noted by Christ and Josephus, these things were real teachings and beliefs of the Jews and Christ and the Apostles. The soul is an image of the body, that is why the Apostles said, they thought they had seen "a ghost" when they saw the image of a man. As such, the soul is able to suffer the pains of the flesh because the pains of the flesh are indelibly imprinted on the soul by the sufferings in this life. There is no evidence that Jesus understood the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to be a literal description of what happens when we die. That is an assumption on your part. Did Jesus believe that a person is bodily taken to hell or to the bosom of Abraham? Your response is not even close to answering the questions above. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble This is not even close to responding to the questions above. John, you have a habit of not reading or studying my replies. If you had truly read my previous replies you would keep asking me to answer the same old things over and over. And my reply above would have answered your question. Try actually reading and studying my reply instead of scanning over and guessing at things. I think it's a habit carried over froom your bible study. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 ... Martin Luther, William Tyndale are not anywhere close to the Greek Scholarship of Thayer. William Tyndale was the one who translated most of what you read in the English Bible, especially in the KJV, NKJV, and RSV. Martin Luther taught Greek and Hebrew at the University and he translated the entire Bible into German, a translation that had the greatest influence on the German language of any translation since. I ask again, did you know that Thayer was a Unitarian? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 The Scriptures speak with clarity and precision on the topic of hell as a place of punishment appointed for the disobedient wicked. The psalmist wrote by inspiration: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God” (9:17)... The Hebrew for "hell" in Ps. 9: 17 is Sheol, depth, the abyss, the grave, the realm of the dead. Strongs #7585. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble ... Martin Luther, William Tyndale are not anywhere close to the Greek Scholarship of Thayer. William Tyndale was the one who translated most of what you read in the English Bible, especially in the KJV, NKJV, and RSV. Martin Luther taught Greek and Hebrew at the University and he translated the entire Bible into German, a translation that had the greatest influence on the German language of any translation since. I ask again, did you know that Thayer was a Unitarian? Yes, I was well aware of that. Nonetheless, he did not change one whit on the meaning of the word "Hades" . Goodness, I bet you still don't know the Greek word for the grave in the New Testament do you? About Tyndale, Thomas More, himself a martyr said, "searching for errors in the Tyndale Bible was similar to searching for water in the sea", and charged Tyndale's translation of Obedience of a Christian Man with having about a thousand falsely translated errors. Even at that, I would say that Tyndale himself, would pass out and die over the errors in the Clear Word bible. The Clear Word bible is only outmatched by the JW's version. Well, maybe not outmatched, it's too close to call which is the most abominable. Quote
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble The Scriptures speak with clarity and precision on the topic of hell as a place of punishment appointed for the disobedient wicked. The psalmist wrote by inspiration: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God” (9:17)... The Hebrew for "hell" in Ps. 9: 17 is Sheol, depth, the abyss, the grave, the realm of the dead. Strongs #7585. Strong??? You are depending upon Strong???? How laughable! Are you serious? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 HADES hades(86), "the region of departed spirits of the lost" Give Bible verses to substantiate this. Where does the Bible call it the place where departed spirits of the lost go? Please list the verses where this is stated. No more long monologues, please, Humble. Just give the verses. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The Hebrew for "hell" in Ps. 9: 17 is Sheol, depth, the abyss, the grave, the realm of the dead. Strongs #7585. [/quote'] Strong??? You are depending upon Strong???? How laughable! Are you serious? AFTER 160 + YEARS YOU ALL STILL DON'T KNOW THE GREEK WORD FOR GRAVE...DO YOU?? Quote
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