Baptized for the dead?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

HUMBLE-- Why then does scripture speak of offering ourselves as a living sacrifice?

It's not telling us to offer ourselves as a sacrifice for the dead, is it? That verse, Romans 12:1 has nothing to do with the topic. It's talking about our practical life before God, that Jesus is to be Lord of every area of life.

Quote:

HUMBLE-- Would you offer prayers or make a sacrifice for those who were spiritually dead and do not know Christ? [/quote']

Of course we should pray for those who are spiritually dead. But we should not offer sacrifices for people.

You say, "make a sacrifice," which can be understood in different ways. I'm talking about making animal sacrifices for the physically dead, not working hard for those who are spiritually dead.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you pray for the dead and offer sacrifices for them?

If Christ died for us while we were yet dead in our sins, do think it is sinful to pray for others that are dead in their sins?

We've been talking about the people who are dead in their graves, haven't we?

Isn't this thread about what happens when you die? Why are you now talking about a different topic?

My question doesn't have anything to do with whether we should pray for those who are spiritually dead. We're talking about prayers for those who have died, whose hearts are stopped and aren't breathing and who are buried.

That is the question. Do you pray for the dead and offer sacrifices for the dead?

[John317]

Okay, when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, how does he say HE (God said, "I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM ISSAC AND JACOB" when Abraham, Issac and Jacob were all dead in the flesh, Abraham for more than 500 years had long been buried. YET, CHRIST SAYS, "HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND NOT OF THE DEAD".

Thus, though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all LONG dead in the flesh, "THEY ALL LIVE TO GOD", AS CHRIST SAID.

What is the subject of the conversation? It says, "As for the resurrection of the dead...."

Or does it say, "As for the immortality of the soul.."?

Does the Bible specifically state that the topic was (a) resurrection of the dead?__________

or ( the immortality of the soul?_________________

If the topic is the resurrection, don't try to make it about the immortality of the soul or spirit.

[John317]

I'm curious, as I watch Obama say he has a "righteous wind at his back" , when you all hear about abortion of an embryos, you think their just putting the embryo to sleep, like a dog or any other animal?

The belief in the non-immortality of the soul does not lead people to view humans as no more than a dog.

So the answer to your question is no.

The fact that you would ask this question, and in the way you asked it, shows that you have some really serious misunderstandings.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Okay, when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, how does he say HE (God said, "I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM ISSAC AND JACOB" when Abraham, Issac and Jacob were all dead in the flesh, Abraham for more than 500 years had long been buried. YET, CHRIST SAYS, "HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND NOT OF THE DEAD".

Thus, though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all LONG dead in the flesh, "THEY ALL LIVE TO GOD", AS CHRIST SAID.

What is the subject of the conversation? It says, "As for the resurrection of the dead...."

Or does it say, "As for the immortality of the soul.."?

Does the Bible specifically state that the topic was (a) resurrection of the dead?__________

or ( the immortality of the soul?_________________

If the topic is the resurrection, don't try to make it about the immortality of the soul or spirit.

The resurrection of the dead and the immortality of the soul are inseparable. Remember, we've learned from Josephus that the Sadducees didn't believe in either the resurrection or the immortality of the soul. We also learned from Josephus that the Pharisees believed in both and so does Christ. The immortality of the soul explicitly taught in by Christ, Himself in Luke 16:19-31.

[John317]

I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve. That kind of thing doesn't bother me. ...

It doesn't bother me personally either.

I've tried to explain this to you before. The rules about name calling are not here because I am personally bothered by it. The rules are here for the protection of everyone. We have many visitors who just drop in and read the posts. It isn't a good thing for the Forum if visitors see participants attacking each other personally or calling names. We're a Christian forum. We don't want people feeling that if they post something, they will be personally attacked or called names.

Anyway, that's one of the main reasons for the rules regarding behavior on the public threads.

Make sense?

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

I'm curious, as I watch Obama say he has a "righteous wind at his back" , when you all hear about abortion of an embryos, you think their just putting the embryo to sleep, like a dog or any other animal?

The belief in the non-immortality of the soul does not lead people to view humans as no more than a dog.

So the answer to your question is no.

The fact that you would ask this question, and in the way you asked it, shows that you have some really serious misunderstandings.

In SDA theology, When a baby is murdered in the womb, they are just putting it to sleep aren't they?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What is the subject of the conversation? It says, "As for the resurrection of the dead...."

Or does it say, "As for the immortality of the soul.."?

Does the Bible specifically state that the topic was (a) resurrection of the dead?__________

or ( the immortality of the soul?_________________

If the topic is the resurrection, don't try to make it about the immortality of the soul or spirit.

[/quote']

The resurrection of the dead and the immortality of the soul are inseparable. Remember, we've learned from Josephus that the Sadducees didn't believe in either the resurrection or the immortality of the soul. We also learned from Josephus that the Pharisees believed in both and so does Christ. The immortality of the soul explicitly taught in by Christ, Himself in Luke 16:19-31.

1) Show from Scripture that the immortality of the soul and the resurrection are inseparable.

2) Whether the Sadducees did or did not believe in the immortality of the soul is irrelevant. We don't determine our doctrines on the basis of the Sadducees.

3) Again, what the Pharisees believed or did not believe regarding the soul is not relevant. We do not determine our beliefs on the basis of the doctrines of the Pharisees.

4) You have to show Bible evidence for what Christ taught. Bible evidence alone.

5) Would you like to carefully review Luke 16: 19-31 to determine what those verses teach us? Shall we go over in detail? Do you believe those verses teach us what happens when a man dies? An angel carries a man bodily to the bosom of Abraham? The people physically are in Hades? People have eyes, a tongue, a finger both in Hades and in the bosom of Abraham? The lost and the saved can both see and talk with each other?

Do you believe this is all literal? Remember that the parable says nothing whatsoever about a soul or spirit or any such thing.

[John317]

.. In SDA theology, When a baby is murdered in the womb, they are just putting it to sleep aren't they?

Humble, stay on the topic.

The answer to your question is no.

You really need to do some study and reading.

No more on abortion. Stay on topic.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

.. In SDA theology, When a baby is murdered in the womb, they are just putting it to sleep aren't they?

No more on abortion. Stay on topic.

Okay. Please answer each of the following in numerical order...

1. While the kabar (to bury) is used in connection with kever it is never used in connection with Sheol. We can bury someone in a grave but we cannot bury anyone in Sheol (Gen. 23:4, 6, 9,19, 20; 49:30, 31, etc.).

2. While kever is found in its plural form "graves" (Ex. 14:11), the word Sheol is never pluralized.

3. While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

4. While we can purchase or sell a grave (Gen. 23:4-20), Scripture never speaks of Sheol being purchased or sold.

5. While we can own a grave as personal property (Gen. 23:4-20), nowhere in scripture is Sheol owned by man.

6. While we can discriminate between graves and pick the "choicest site" (Gen. 23:6), nowhere in Scripture is a "choice" Sheol pitted against a "poor" Sheol.

7. While we can drop a dead body into a grave (Gen. 50:13), no one can drop anyone into Sheol.

8. While we can erect a monument over a grave (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never spoken of as having monuments.

9. While we can, with ease, open or close a grave (2 Kings 23:16), Sheol is never opened or closed by man.

10. While we can touch a grave (Num. 19:18), no one is ever said in Scripture to touch Sheol.

11. While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol.

12. While we can enter and leave a tomb or grave (2 Kings 23:16), no one is ever said to enter and then leave Sheol.

13. While we can choose the site of our own grave (Gen. 23:4-9), Sheol is never spoken of as something we can pick and choose.

14. While we can remove or uncover the bodies or bones in a grave (2 Kings 23:16), the Scriptures never speak of man removing or uncovering anything in Sheol.

15. While we can beautify a grave with ornate carvings or pictures (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never beautified by man.

16. While graves can be robbed or defiled (Jer. 8:1,2), Sheol is never spoken of as being robbed or defiled by man.

17. While a grave can be destroyed by man (Jer. 8:1,2), nowhere in Scripture is man said to be able to destroy Sheol.

18. While a grave can be full, Sheol is never full (Prov. 27:20).

19. While we can see a grave, Sheol is always invisible.

20. While we can visit the graves of loved ones, nowhere in Scripture is man said to visit Sheol.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Acts 2:25-26 (English Standard Version)

25 For David says concerning him' date='

"'I saw the Lord always before me,

for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;

26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;

my flesh also will dwell in hope.

Was there something in particular in these verses that you wanted to draw my attention to? [/quote']

My apologies, I should have added verse 27:

Acts 2:25 For David says concerning him, 'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; moreover my flesh will dwell in hope. 27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption.

It means that Jesus was not abandoned by God in the grave but that Jesus was resurrected.

Again the verses have to do with resurrection of the dead, not with the immortality of the soul. That is a bad piece of evidence for you if you are trying to prove the immortality of the soul. The Scriptures use "my soul" in place of "me."

And Hades is the realm of the dead, the same as Shoel in the Old Testament.

It's in parallel poetry: the first line, "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades [shoel]" carries the same meaning as, "nor let thy Holy One see corruption."

Sheol is where both the righteous and the wicked go at death. It is a common name for grave. See Job 7: 9; 14:13; 17: 13, 16; Ps. 30: 3;49:15; 1 Sam. 2: 6.

If we die, we can't avoid Hades, but we can avoid Gehenna.

[John317]

Can you please provide the original source or link for this information.

My friend Humble, all of these point do is show that Shoel is an abstract name for the grave and death. Is "death" localized? Can someone be buried in "death"? Where is "death"?

That doesn't help in proving that soul of man is immortal and burns forever.

Is this one of your best pieces of evidence?

[BobRyan]

3. While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

The belief in the non-immortality of the soul does not lead people to view humans as no more than a dog.

So the answer to your question is no.

The fact that you would ask this question, and in the way you asked it, shows that you have some really serious misunderstandings.

[/quote']

In SDA theology, When a baby is murdered in the womb, they are just putting it to sleep aren't they?

John 11 "LAZARUS SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" --

Is it your claim that this makes Lazarus like a dog?

Read Eccl 3.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In Matt 22 Christ makes the point that God is NOT the God of the dead - the reason that statement is true -- is that "the dead know not anything".

That argument was the key point in Christ's proof that there HAS to be a resurrection in order for God to continue to call Himself "the God of Abraham" after Abraham dies.

in Christ,

Bob

[B Humble]

In Matt 22 Christ makes the point that God is NOT the God of the dead - the reason that statement is true -- is that "the dead know not anything".

That argument was the key point in Christ's proof that there HAS to be a resurrection in order for God to continue to call Himself "the God of Abraham" after Abraham dies.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, BUT, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, WHILE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH, AND AT THE SAME TIMES SAYS HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, 500 YEARS AFTER ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL IS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN WHEN CHRIST THEN CONCLUDES "ALL LIVE UNTO HIM" THUS, WHILE ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB WERE DEAD IN THE FLESH, THEY WERE ALIVE UNTO GOD!

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

It means that Jesus was not abandoned by God in the grave but that Jesus was resurrected.

Again the verses have to do with resurrection of the dead, not with the immortality of the soul. That is a bad piece of evidence for you if you are trying to prove the immortality of the soul. The Scriptures use "my soul" in place of "me."

And Hades is the realm of the dead, the same as Shoel in the Old Testament.

It's in parallel poetry: the first line, "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades [shoel]" carries the same meaning as, "nor let thy Holy One see corruption."

Sheol is where both the righteous and the wicked go at death. It is a common name for grave. See Job 7: 9; 14:13; 17: 13, 16; Ps. 30: 3;49:15; 1 Sam. 2: 6.

If we die, we can't avoid Hades, but we can avoid Gehenna.

Sheol is NOT THE GRAVE. Even when you are confronted with the truth, you will not admit it. I have has shown irrefutably that the Sheol was a the COMMONLY USED as the place for departed disembodied souls or spirits. SOULS ARE IMMATERIAL, THEY ARE NOT COVERED WITH DIRT, SOULS ARE ARE NOT PUT IN GRAVES! ONCE AGAIN, A CLASSIC SDA ARGUMENT SHOWN TO BE FALSE.

1. While the kabar (to bury) is used in connection with kever it is never used in connection with Sheol. We can bury someone in a grave but we cannot bury anyone in Sheol (Gen. 23:4, 6, 9,19, 20; 49:30, 31, etc.).

2. While kever is found in its plural form "graves" (Ex. 14:11), the word Sheol is never pluralized.

3. While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

4. While we can purchase or sell a grave (Gen. 23:4-20), Scripture never speaks of Sheol being purchased or sold.

5. While we can own a grave as personal property (Gen. 23:4-20), nowhere in scripture is Sheol owned by man.

6. While we can discriminate between graves and pick the "choicest site" (Gen. 23:6), nowhere in Scripture is a "choice" Sheol pitted against a "poor" Sheol.

7. While we can drop a dead body into a grave (Gen. 50:13), no one can drop anyone into Sheol.

8. While we can erect a monument over a grave (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never spoken of as having monuments.

9. While we can, with ease, open or close a grave (2 Kings 23:16), Sheol is never opened or closed by man.

10. While we can touch a grave (Num. 19:18), no one is ever said in Scripture to touch Sheol.

11. While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol.

12. While we can enter and leave a tomb or grave (2 Kings 23:16), no one is ever said to enter and then leave Sheol.

13. While we can choose the site of our own grave (Gen. 23:4-9), Sheol is never spoken of as something we can pick and choose.

14. While we can remove or uncover the bodies or bones in a grave (2 Kings 23:16), the Scriptures never speak of man removing or uncovering anything in Sheol.

15. While we can beautify a grave with ornate carvings or pictures (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never beautified by man.

16. While graves can be robbed or defiled (Jer. 8:1,2), Sheol is never spoken of as being robbed or defiled by man.

17. While a grave can be destroyed by man (Jer. 8:1,2), nowhere in Scripture is man said to be able to destroy Sheol.

18. While a grave can be full, Sheol is never full (Prov. 27:20).

19. While we can see a grave, Sheol is always invisible.

20. While we can visit the graves of loved ones, nowhere in Scripture is man said to visit Sheol.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In Matt 22 Christ makes the point that God is NOT the God of the dead - the reason that statement is true -- is that "the dead know not anything".

That argument was the key point in Christ's proof that there HAS to be a resurrection in order for God to continue to call Himself "the God of Abraham" after Abraham dies.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, BUT, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, WHILE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH, AND AT THE SAME TIMES SAYS HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, 500 YEARS AFTER ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL IS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN WHEN CHRIST THEN CONCLUDES "ALL LIVE UNTO HIM" THUS, WHILE ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB WERE DEAD IN THE FLESH, THEY WERE ALIVE UNTO GOD!

Your error is in trying to solve the "resurrection" problem APART from Christ's argument FOR IT!

In your revised form above you argue that Christ is in error to AGREE with the Sadducee's claim that God is NOT the God of the dead because in fact He IS the God of the dead even MORE so than the living -- since in your made-up-solution the dead are immortal -- you have declared that Christ's affirmation "God is NOT the God of the dead" is wrong.

That was your first clue that you are in error on this point.

But if we follow that wrong course you are charting then our conclusion is that the "immortal soul" option completely ELIMINATES the need for resurrection to make true the statement "I AM the God of Abraham" while Abraham was dead. So the spin you are using completely DELETES the argument Christ makes as PROOF for resurrection.

By contrast Christ exposes your error as He says that our focus is to be on PROVING resurrection NOT on trying to get dead people to be alive apart from resurrection "BUT REGARDING THE RESURRECTION have you not read what God said to Moses..."

Your second clue that your spin on this is in error.

This argument of Christ's totally silenced the Sadducees as the Pharisees observed. That is pretty amazing because here we have a case where Christ proves his point in a way that the Sadducees can not avoid. The Sadducee AGREES WITH CHRIST that "God is not the God of the dead" so they AGREE that a "solution is needed" when it is pointed out that God says to Moses "I AM the God of Abraham". Christ argues that SOLUTION is 'the resurrection' whereas YOU argue the real solution is NOT resurrection BUT "immortal souls".

It is pricesly because of their AGREEMENT with the premise Christ made that they are so utterly stuck for any other solution OTHER Than "RESURRECTION". Thus the Pharisees observed the shocking result that their life long opponants "were silenced".

Your alternative to the details we see in the text -- is to completely ignore them and essentially DELETE the PROOF Christ gives for resurrection.

Your third clue that your spin on this incident is totally in error.

Surely you noticed that.

Question for you - how is it that Both Sadducees and Pharisees got this point of Christ's PROOF for resurrection while you missed it?

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In Matt 22 Christ makes the point that God is NOT the God of the dead - the reason that statement is true -- is that "the dead know not anything".

That argument was the key point in Christ's proof that there HAS to be a resurrection in order for God to continue to call Himself "the God of Abraham" after Abraham dies.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, BUT, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, WHILE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH, AND AT THE SAME TIMES SAYS HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, 500 YEARS AFTER ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL IS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN WHEN CHRIST THEN CONCLUDES "ALL LIVE UNTO HIM" THUS, WHILE ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB WERE DEAD IN THE FLESH, THEY WERE ALIVE UNTO GOD!

Notice it does not say, "they are alive," but "they are alive unto God." What is the difference?

To God, because of the certainty of the resurrection, the first death is a sleep. It's for the same reason Jesus said Lazarus is only sleeping and he was going to wake him up.

Did Jesus' saying "Lazarus is asleep" show that Lazarus had an immortal soul and was in heaven already?

Did Jesus call to Lazarus to "come down" or to "come out"? He called for him to "come out," didn't he? Did Jesus make Lazarus leave heaven and come down to this old world again?

To God, the resurrection is so certain that it's as if the righteous dead are alive.

So Jesus' words are not a denial that they are dead but they point to the fact that to God they are merely asleep and will soon be raised up.

Matt. 22: 23, 31 specifically point out that the verses are about the resurrection. There is no mention of the soul or spirit.

Remember that the blessed hope of the believer is not death but the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection which will take place at that time. Titus 2: 13.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Yes, BUT, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, WHILE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH, AND AT THE SAME TIMES SAYS HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, 500 YEARS AFTER ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL IS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN WHEN CHRIST THEN CONCLUDES "ALL LIVE UNTO HIM" THUS, WHILE ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB WERE DEAD IN THE FLESH, THEY WERE ALIVE UNTO GOD! [/quote']

Your error is in trying to solve the "resurrection" problem APART from Christ's argument FOR IT!

In your revised form above you argue that Christ is in error to AGREE with the Sadducee's claim that God is NOT the God of the dead because in fact He IS the God of the dead even MORE so than the living -- since in your made-up-solution the dead are immortal -- you have declared that Christ's affirmation "God is NOT the God of the dead" is wrong.

What in the world are you trying to say???

That was your first clue that you are in error on this point.

But if we follow that wrong course you are charting then our conclusion is that the "immortal soul" option completely ELIMINATES the need for resurrection to make true the statement "I AM the God of Abraham" while Abraham was dead. So the spin you are using completely DELETES the argument Christ makes as PROOF for resurrection.

Not at all, I didn't mention the resurrection because that wasn't the discussion we were having. The resurrection was understood. what you miss is the historical context, the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL. THE PHARISEES DID BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY. CHRIST CONFIRMED THE BOTH THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY IN THE ENTIRE CONTEXT.

We already KNOW Christ believed and TAUGHT the immortality of the soul from Luke 16:19-31.

By contrast Christ exposes your error as He says that our focus is to be on PROVING resurrection NOT on trying to get dead people to be alive apart from resurrection "BUT REGARDING THE RESURRECTION have you not read what God said to Moses..."

Your second clue that your spin on this is in error.

This argument of Christ's totally silenced the Sadducees as the Pharisees observed. That is pretty amazing because here we have a case where Christ proves his point in a way that the Sadducees can not avoid. The Sadducee AGREES WITH CHRIST that "God is not the God of the dead" so they AGREE that a "solution is needed" when it is pointed out that God says to Moses "I AM the God of Abraham". Christ argues that SOLUTION is 'the resurrection' whereas YOU argue the real solution is NOT resurrection BUT "immortal souls".

Not so. When God appeared thousands of years before any resurrection, he said HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM..

SECONDLY, WHEN CHRIST HIMSELF SPEAKS OF THE TEACHES OF THE IMMORTAL SOUL, HE SPECIFICALLY SHOWS LAZARUS COMMUNICATING WITH ABRAHAM!!! THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE ANAY RESURRECTION.

It is pricesly because of their AGREEMENT with the premise Christ made that they are so utterly stuck for any other solution OTHER Than "RESURRECTION". Thus the Pharisees observed the shocking result that their life long opponants "were silenced".

Your alternative to the details we see in the text -- is to completely ignore them and essentially DELETE the PROOF Christ gives for resurrection.

Your third clue that your spin on this incident is totally in error.

CHRIST CONFIRMED THAT PHARISEES ARE CORRECT IN THEIR BELIEFS, JUST AS HE DID IN LUKE 16:19-31. YOU ARE GUY SPINNING, YOU WANT TO READ THE BIBLE PRETEND LUKE 16:19-31 DOESN'T EXIST.

Surely you noticed that.

Question for you - how is it that Both Sadducees and Pharisees got this point of Christ's PROOF for resurrection while you missed it?

AS NOTED ABOVE, I DIDN'T MISS IT AT ALL, YOU ARE FABRICATING ASSUMPTIONS THAT ARE FALSE.

in Christ,

Bob

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Yes, BUT, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, WHILE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH, AND AT THE SAME TIMES SAYS HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, 500 YEARS AFTER ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL IS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN WHEN CHRIST THEN CONCLUDES "ALL LIVE UNTO HIM" THUS, WHILE ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB WERE DEAD IN THE FLESH, THEY WERE ALIVE UNTO GOD! [/quote']

Notice it does not say, "they are alive," but "they are alive unto God." What is the difference?

To God, because of the certainty of the resurrection, the first death is a sleep. It's for the same reason Jesus said Lazarus is only sleeping and he was going to wake him up.

Did Jesus' saying "Lazarus is asleep" show that Lazarus had an immortal soul and was in heaven already?

Did Jesus call to Lazarus to "come down" or to "come out"? He called for him to "come out," didn't he? Did Jesus make Lazarus leave heaven and come down to this old world again?

Written in your own words, YOU TOTALLY MISSED IT! JESUS CALLED, "LAZARUS" AND LAZARUS WHO IS DEAD [size:17pt]HEARS HIM! I THOUGHT DEAD MEN DON'T HEAR ANYTHING! Jesus called, Lazarus's soul from Hades, just as the other Lazarus was in hades speaking with "Father Abraham.

To God, the resurrection is so certain that it's as if the righteous dead are alive.

Answer: you've that spin machine going again. "as if" is not in the scriptures. JESUS SAID THEY ALL L I V E. Just as Abraham is ALIVE in Luke 16:19-31 thousands of years before any resurrection.

So Jesus' words are not a denial that they are dead but they point to the fact that to God they are merely asleep and will soon be raised up.

Apparently, you don't know what it means to sleep. Are you dead at night? To "SLEEP" means the body is at rest, while the spirit is still active.

Matt. 22: 23, 31 specifically point out that the verses are about the resurrection. There is no mention of the soul or spirit.

Remember that the blessed hope of the believer is not death but the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection which will take place at that time. Titus 2: 13.

The resurrection is the great fulfillment of the end of time, nonetheless it takes NOTHING away from the comfort, peace and solace in the intermediate state. In Revelation, we are told that the SOULS UNDER THE ALTER SEEK CHRIST'S INTERVENTION BUT ARE TOLD TO "REST" AWHILE.. THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS ARE IN COMMUNICATION WITH GOD AND ABLE TO HEAR HIM AND SEEK HIM, NOT SOME NOTHINGNESS, AS YOU SUPPOSE HANGING AROUND SPACE.

[John317]

Did Jesus call to Lazarus to "come down" or to "come out"? He called for him to "come out," didn't he? Did Jesus make Lazarus leave heaven and come down to this old world again?

How did God [Christ] create the world? It was by a command. Do you think the sun was alive and heard God's command in Gen. 1: 14, 15?

That is the power of God's word-- it causes to be what was not. God's command creates from nothing.

You are right that the dead don't hear anything-- unless it's the Creator God who calls them to life.

Or are you saying that God requires us to be alive in order for him to resurrect us from the dead?

[John317]

The resurrection is the great fulfillment of the end of time, nonetheless it takes NOTHING away from the comfort, peace and solace in the intermediate state. In Revelation, we are told that the SOULS UNDER THE ALTER SEEK CHRIST'S INTERVENTION BUT ARE TOLD TO "REST" AWHILE.. THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS ARE IN COMMUNICATION WITH GOD AND ABLE TO HEAR HIM AND SEEK HIM, NOT SOME NOTHINGNESS, AS YOU SUPPOSE HANGING AROUND SPACE.

Are you saying that when people die, they now go to be under the alter?

Before this, you said the dead go to be in Abraham's bosom. Is Abraham's bosom under the alter?

Do you believe all the symbols in Revelation are literal? Is Christ really a lamb? Does Jesus actually have a sword coming out of his mouth?

By the way, if you believe in the souls literally being under the alter, you must also believe that Genesis 4: 10 is literal. They are very similar. Is Abel's blood literally crying out to God?

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- To God, the resurrection is so certain that it's as if the righteous dead are alive.

Read again: "They are alive unto God." And the context is the resurrection, not the immortality of the soul. It is stated twice in the Scriptures.

Abraham in Luke 16 has a body when in Abraham's bosom. He has a finger. He is carried bodily by an angel. Is this literal?

Is the point of the parable to teach what happens after we die?

What is the point of the story?

Very important rule in interpretation of the Bible: Don't determine doctrine by metaphors. This is what you are doing. Doctrine is to be determined by plain statements of the Bible (such as Ecc. 9: 5), not by using details in a parable which obviously are not intended to be understood as literally true.

[John317]

Not so. When God appeared thousands of years before any resurrection, he said HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM..

SECONDLY, WHEN CHRIST HIMSELF SPEAKS OF THE TEACHES OF THE IMMORTAL SOUL, HE SPECIFICALLY SHOWS LAZARUS COMMUNICATING WITH ABRAHAM!!! THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE ANAY RESURRECTION.

So, then, you believe that those being tormented in Hades can both see and speak with Abraham? You believe they have bodies and eyes and tongues like they do in the parable?