Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 Quote: John 3:17-- That's a lot different from believing people go to hell as a spirit as soon as they die. This says people will have bodies in hell. Both their body and their true selves-- their very lives-- will be utterly destroyed in the fires of hell. They will be made into ashes and be as if they had never been. See Isaiah 1: 28. Look closely at the Hebrew word here. It is often translated as "perish." Some translate it correctly as "annihilated." (See Modern Language Bible or the New Berkeley Vesion.) Analyze closely Rev. 20: 11-15. Notice it says death and Hades.... Can you show from the Bible that man has a conscious part of him that continues on after death; that is, that humans are not completely subject to death. Start with the texts that describe how God made us, as, for instance, Gen 2: 7. Is the Bible consistent in presenting this view? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 JOHN3:17-- Where were the wicked destroyed? Rev. 20: 9 tells us. They are destroyed on the surface of the earth. But now Rev. 21: 1 says God remakes the earth. Not only that, but 21: 14 says there will be no more death or mourning or crying, for all those kinds of things have passed away. God wipes away every tear. If that is true, how could there be billions of people still being tormented? Does God have a torture chamber somewhere? Quote: B.HUMBLE-- Answer: yes there are in hell, the torment of fire and the pending judgment of both the body and soul in everlasting fire. What purpose does this torture chamber serve? If God has a torture chamber, it can only mean that God is a torturer. Why does He torture His intelligent creatures? Please show your evidence from Scripture. Show that God has a place called Hell and that God is torturing people right now. How long is God intending to torture Cain? Won't Cain be tortured longer than, say, Hitler? Of what does Hell consist? Where is it? What is the nature of the fire of hell? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble JOHN3:17-- Where were the wicked destroyed? Rev. 20: 9 tells us. They are destroyed on the surface of the earth. But now Rev. 21: 1 says God remakes the earth. Not only that, but 21: 14 says there will be no more death or mourning or crying, for all those kinds of things have passed away. God wipes away every tear. Answer: So, when you read that the "they DESTROYED the face of the earth, you think that means annihilated????? You think that when it says, "DESTROYED" it means it no longer existed? Is that what you think?? OR, do you know, when it says, "DESTROYED" the face of earth, IT DOESN'T MEAN ANNIHILATED! You see how deceitful you all become? YOU KNOW GOOD AND WELL, IT MEANS IT NOT TO ANNIHILATE AND NOT TO NO LONGER EXIST! It means to ruin it's purpose so that it can't be used for it's natural purpose. Likewise, when speaking of "destroying body and soul in hell, it means NOT TO ANNIHILATE or to wipe it out of existence but to ruin it's purpose for which it was created. If that is true, how could there be billions of people still being tormented? Answer: MANY will seek to enter in and shall not, said Christ. Does God have a torture chamber somewhere? Answer: YES! IN THE LOWER PART OF HADES... Quote: B.HUMBLE-- Answer: yes there are in hell, the torment of fire and the pending judgment of both the body and soul in everlasting fire. What purpose does this torture chamber serve? answer: TO PUNISH! If God has a torture chamber, it can only mean that God is a torturer. Why does He torture His intelligent creatures? Answer: Read Romans 1 and 2 Please show your evidence from Scripture. Show that God has a place called Hell and that God is torturing people right now. Answer: See my study below How long is God intending to torture Cain? Won't Cain be tortured longer than, say, Hitler? Answer: To each is given his own time, in the space of eternity, it won't matter much. Of what does Hell consist? Where is it? What is the nature of the fire of hell? HADES hades(86), "the region of departed spirits of the lost" (but including the blessed dead in periods preceding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some that the word etymologically meant "the unseen" (from a, negative, and eido, "to see"), but this derivation is questionable; a more probable derivation is from hado, signifying "all-receiving." It corresponds to "Sheol" in the OT. In the KJV of the OT and NT; it has been unhappily rendered "hell," e.g., Ps. 16:10; or "the grave," e.g., Gen. 37:35; or "the pit," Num. 16:30, 33; in the NT the revisers have always used the rendering "hades"; in the OT, they have not been uniform in the translation, e.g. in Isa. 14:15 "hell" (marg., "Sheol"); usually they have "Sheol" in the text and "the grave" in the margin. IT NEVER DENOTES THE GRAVE, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of Gehenna. For the condition, see Luke 16:23-31. The word is used four times in the Gospels, and always by the Lord, Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; it is used with reference to the soul of Christ, Acts 2:27, 31; Christ declares that He has the keys of it, Rev. 1:18; in Rev. 6:8 it is personified, with the signification of the temporary destiny of the doomed; it is to give up those who are therein, 20:13, and is to be cast into the lake of fire, v. 14. Vines Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, pg 286 Thomas Nelson Publishers. 86 hades :the neether world, the realm of the dead. The infrenal regions (Job x. 21), a dark (Job xi. 8), Is. Lvii. 9; Am. ix.2, etc. the common receptacle of disembodied spirits: Luk xvi. 23 The New Thayer's Greek English Lexicon, page 11. Hendickson Publishers Quoting from the book, "The Life and Times of Jesus, the Messiah" concerning the story of Lazarus and the Rich man we read; "Thus, the carrying up of the SOUL of the righteous by Angels is certainly in accordance with Jewish teaching, though stripped of all legenary details, such as about the number and the greeting of the Angels. But it is also fully in accordance with Christian thought of the ministry of Angels" "2. Dives and Lazarus after death; The "great contrast" fully realized , and how to enter the Kingdom. Here also the main interest center in Dives. He also has died and been buried. Thus ends all his exaltedness before men. The next scene is in Hades or Sheol, the place of disembodied spirits before the final judgement. it consists of two division; the none of consolation, with all the faithful gathered unto abraham as their father, the other of fiery torment. thus far in accordance with the general teaching of the new testament..." pg. 280. Section 2 of the book. This whole notion that because the Greeks believed something Christ can't believe the same thing is false. The Greeks learned it from the Jews and Christ and the Jews agree. Here is another prime example. 2Peter 2:4 "4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" The word "HELL" is the Greek word "Tartaroo". It is #5020 in the Strongs Concordance. "Tartaroo" is used to mean "(the deepest abyss of Hades) to incarcerate in eternal torment-cast down to hell" Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. It again demonstrates the belief and confirmed by Peter and Christ that Hades had compartments with were used to torment the sinful angels and Human souls alike. Quote
B Humble Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Let us compare The Jewish Historian Josephus with Christ's own words, because he lived during Christ's time and knew the Jewish and CHRISTIAN theology of the time of both the Apostles and Christ Josephus: "3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. Christ words in Luke 16: ( Compare with Christ own words, Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels INTO ABRAHAMS BOSOM.” " Josephus: 4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos (GULF) deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. " CHRIST WORDS:"Luke 16:26"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Josephus: "6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, WHOM WE CALL CHRIST. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: CONCERNING WHOM WE HAVE ELSEWHERE GIVEN A MORE PARTICULAR ACCOUNT, FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO SEEK AFTER TRUTH. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, JUST IS THY JUDGMENT; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. Christ words: Mt.25:41 Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Josehus: ". To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain FIERY WORM, NEVER DYING, NOT DESTROYING THE BODY BUT CONTINUING its eruption out of the body with NEVER-CEASING GRIEF: " Christ words from Mark 9: 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [size:14pt]Josephus: "neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, " The Apostle John in Rev.14: And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, The SDA will answer that all this is the influence of paganism nonsense. The Apostles are influenced by paganism, Christ is not influenced by paganism. Everybody is influenced by paganism accept the annihilationist. Annihilationism is the most pagan of all beliefs. Its roots are in the godless murders, slanders and worst of humans that they may HAVE HOPE OF ESCAPE of the ETERNAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO THEM for sinning so against so GREAT AND HOLY RIGHTEOUS GOD. There is nothing more pleasurable to the carnal mind than the HOPE of annihilation and the escape of the torment which is due to them. They would rather BLASPHEME GOD and call him Satan than repent, while they IMAGINE that they will get sleep and rest for their sins. The scripture makes no such promise Quote
Moderators Nan Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 Quote "There is nothing more pleasurable to the carnal mind than the HOPE of annihilation and the escape of the torment which is due to them. They would rather BLASPHEME GOD and call him Satan than repent, while they IMAGINE that they will get sleep and rest for their sins. The scripture makes no such promise" I cannot think of a worse way to BLASPHEME GOD than to make Him out to permit torment in eternal hell fire. How could such a God ask His subjects to love Him? He says "If you LOVE Me, keep My commandments", not "If you FEAR Me, keep My commandments". There have been many points made in this thread about why we do not believe in eternal torment, I will not re-iterate them here. But this premise has led many to reject the idea of God entirely - my own husband for one, in his youth, until he came to know differently. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 This whole notion that because the Greeks believed something Christ can't believe the same thing is false. The Greeks learned it from the Jews and Christ and the Jews agree.... Show evidence that the Greeks learned of the immortality of the soul from the Jews. In about 400 BC, Herodotus wrote in his Histories, "The Egyptians were also the first to claim that the soul of a human being is immortal..... This theory [of the immortality and transmigration of the soul] has been adopted by certain Greeks too... who presented it as if it were their own." (Book 2, paragraph 123.) Please show that the Old Testament teaches the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Can you show the connection between Aristotle's and Plato's view of the immortality of the soul and the teachings in the Old Testament.? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 Quoting from the book, "The Life and Times of Jesus, the Messiah" concerning the story of Lazarus and the Rich man we read; "Thus, the carrying up of the SOUL of the righteous by Angels is certainly in accordance with Jewish teaching, though stripped of all legenary details, such as about the number and the greeting of the Angels. But it is also fully in accordance with Christian thought of the ministry of Angels" "2. Dives and Lazarus after death; The "great contrast" fully realized , and how to enter the Kingdom. Here also the main interest center in Dives. He also has died and been buried. Thus ends all his exaltedness before men. The next scene is in Hades or Sheol, the place of disembodied spirits before the final judgement..... 1) Show the verse in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man which contains the word "soul" or refers to the "soul". (In the lists of the parables of the NT, Luke 16: 19-31 is always included. See, for instance, the Zondervan Study Bible.) 2) Where does it say the angel carries the soul? Cite the verse or verses. 3) Where does the parable teach anything about disembodied spirits? Cite the verse or verses. 4) What part of the parable show that Hades or Sheol is "the place of disembodied spirits"? Cite the verse or verses . 5) You might go ahead and analyze the parable from the viewpoint of a literal event. Shall we do that? Notice that the rich man is portrayed as having his body in Hades. So is Lazarus. Also notice that in the parable, the dead can see the righteous and they can communicate with each other. They have eyes, tongues, fingers, eyes, etc Are you sure you want to read this literally? Also, what is the lesson Jesus wants to teach by the parable. Is it that the dead are carried bodily to the bosom of Abraham? The lesson of the parable is found in Luke 16: 31, and it is not to teach us what happens to us after we die. The real objective of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was to teach the covetous Pharasees the fallacy of their belief that prosperity in this world was an indication of happiness to be enjoyed in the next world, while poverty here was only a prophecy of misery hereafter. And the covetous Pharisees got the lesson. Note Luke 16: 14. Jesus also teaches in the parable that there is no change in our spiritual condition after death. Anything we are going to do must be done now, in this life, because after we die, there is no second chance to be saved. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 Let us compare The Jewish Historian Josephus with Christ's own words, because he lived during Christ's time and knew the Jewish and CHRISTIAN theology of the time of both the Apostles and Christ Josephus: "3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region.[size:14pt THIS PLACE WE CALL THE BOSOM OF ABRAHAM. Christ words in Luke 16: ( Compare with Christ own words, Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels INTO ABRAHAMS BOSOM.” I'm glad you posted this. It proves my point. Jesus was telling a parable that was based on a story well known to the Jews of His day, in order to teach a lesson about the importance of listening to the prophets because there is no second chance for salvation after death. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 31, 2008 Moderators Posted October 31, 2008 The Apostle John in Rev.14: And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, Do a word study of the words translated as "forever," etc. How does the Bible use it? For instance, see Jonah 2: 6-- How long, according to Jonah, did the earth with its bars close in behind him? See also 1 Samuel 1: 22 and 28. In verse 22, Hannah tells her husband that Samuel will remain "before the Lord" "forever." How long is "forever," according to the 1 Sam. 1: 28? Answer: as long as he lives. It shows that "forever" in the context of the death of the wicked means as long as there is anything to burn. "Forever" in reference to mortal man does not mean endless. When "forever" is used in reference to God, it means endless because is immortal. When "forever" is used with reference to the saved, after they are given the gift of immorality, it means endless because the saved will be immortal. See also Jude 7 where "eternal" is used of something-- fires of Sodom-- that is no longer in existence. The eternal fire that destroyed Sodom went out a long time ago, after it destroyed the city. The same with the fires on the surface of the earth which destroys the wicked: it will go out after it burns up what God intends for it to burn up. (Compare Mal. 4: 1-3 and Is. 66: 24.) When firemen refer to "inextinguishable fire," what do they mean? Do they mean a fire that literally never goes out? What does the word mean? Question: will anyone be able to put out the fire that destroys the wicked? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Quote "There is nothing more pleasurable to the carnal mind than the HOPE of annihilation and the escape of the torment which is due to them. They would rather BLASPHEME GOD and call him Satan than repent, while they IMAGINE that they will get sleep and rest for their sins. The scripture makes no such promise" I cannot think of a worse way to BLASPHEME GOD than to make Him out to permit torment in eternal hell fire. How could such a God ask His subjects to love Him? He says "If you LOVE Me, keep My commandments", not "If you FEAR Me, keep My commandments". There have been many points made in this thread about why we do not believe in eternal torment, I will not re-iterate them here. But this premise has led many to reject the idea of God entirely - my own husband for one, in his youth, until he came to know differently. What? God is supposed to bow down to man and change so man will accept him? No, the fact is your own husband refuses to accept Christ and God as he is. So, he made a God in his own image he could accept. That is commonly called Idolatry. What people do is refuse to accept God as he is. Then they think if they can deceive themselves into worshiping a God that is to THEIR LIKING, THEN, they will worship that God. The True God will not accept anyone who will not worship Him as HE is. Whether you like him, love him or worship him, is up to you. However, HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE SO YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITH HIM. THAT WOULD MAKE YOU GOD AND GOD, YOUR SERVANT. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 1, 2008 Moderators Posted November 1, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Nan Posted November 1, 2008 Moderators Posted November 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: Nan Quote "There is nothing more pleasurable to the carnal mind than the HOPE of annihilation and the escape of the torment which is due to them. They would rather BLASPHEME GOD and call him Satan than repent, while they IMAGINE that they will get sleep and rest for their sins. The scripture makes no such promise" I cannot think of a worse way to BLASPHEME GOD than to make Him out to permit torment in eternal hell fire. How could such a God ask His subjects to love Him? He says "If you LOVE Me, keep My commandments", not "If you FEAR Me, keep My commandments". There have been many points made in this thread about why we do not believe in eternal torment, I will not re-iterate them here. But this premise has led many to reject the idea of God entirely - my own husband for one, in his youth, until he came to know differently. What? God is supposed to bow down to man and change so man will accept him? No, the fact is your own husband refuses to accept Christ and God as he is. So, he made a God in his own image he could accept. That is commonly called Idolatry. What people do is refuse to accept God as he is. Then they think if they can deceive themselves into worshiping a God that is to THEIR LIKING, THEN, they will worship that God. The True God will not accept anyone who will not worship Him as HE is. Whether you like him, love him or worship him, is up to you. However, HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE SO YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITH HIM. THAT WOULD MAKE YOU GOD AND GOD, YOUR SERVANT. You know not of which you speak. My husband is an ordained minister and a dedicated follower of God, seeking to do His will as revealed in all things. He is an excellent Bible student and would certainly reject the interpretation of the wicked having everlasting life (if life means conscious existence), which you promulgate. My point was that God desires a free will choice, not a fear driven caving in, in those who follow Him. I am sure we all agree when God says that He is the LORD, He does not change, including to fit the desires of would be followers. He presents a truth which can draw people to Him. I do not find that truth in what you present. John is presenting a careful study of the way I believe, and I will not make a long post that would duplicate his. Quote
B Humble Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 I have already shown that Hades in scripture and in the mind of Christ as well as his listeners did not mean the grave. In the text of Luke 16:19-31, Christ gave a story, whether parable or not, it makes no difference, in the story Christ specifically uses Hades as a place of torment. Josephus, the renown Jewish historian leaves for us the common teaching of his day, which Christ himself uses to show the wicked are punished immediately after death. The rich man's brothers are still alive, so close is the time of suffering "in this flame" and "in this place of torment" of the rich man. And this agrees totally with the Josephus' own words regarding hades. It is simply beyond refute to any logical person. The Scriptures speak with clarity and precision on the topic of hell as a place of punishment appointed for the disobedient wicked. The psalmist wrote by inspiration: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God” (9:17). Jesus taught that at Judgment, the wicked will “depart” into punishment “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41; cf. Matthew 25:46 where Jesus employed the Greek term kolasis, which means punishment, torment, suffering, and chastisement [see Brown, 1999, p. 173]). When John described those who would join the devil in hell’s horrible abyss, he referred to “the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and liars” (Revelation 21:8). Paul said that those who inhabit hell with Satan will be those who “know not God” and who “obey not the gospel of Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). In discussing gehenna in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Geerhardus Vos addressed the verses that deal with hell, and then stated: “In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked, generally in connection with the final judgment.... Both body and soul are cast into it” (1956, 2:1183). E.M. Zerr commented: “Gehenna is the lake of unquenchable fire into which the whole being of the wicked (body, soul and spirit) will be cast after the judgment” (1952, p. 17). Hell is a place of contempt and shame (Daniel 12:2), as well as torment and anguish (Luke 16:23-24). It is a place of “outer darkness” (Matthew 8:12; 25:30) where punishment and suffering occur (Matthew 25:46; Revelation 14:11) that will involve both body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Hell is a Place of Conscious Sorrow, Torment, Pain, and Suffering From such vivid descriptions, it is quite evident that the wicked will be in a state of consciousness. In fact, John wrote that Satan and his human cohorts would be “cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). That is to say, the Bible definitely teaches “the persistence of personality after physical death” (Warren, 1992, p. 32, emp. added). When Christ described hell as a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:13), He overtly emphasized the fact that its inhabitants will endure conscious sorrow. Hell is a place of such terrible suffering (2 Thessalonians 1:9) that the apostle John referred to it as the “second death” (Revelation 20:14-15; 21:8). Benton summarized this well: Hell...is to be shut out of God’s presence, cut off from all that is good and wholesome. It is to be cut off from all love, all peace, all joy for ever. Jesus explains that once people realize this, once they realize what they have missed, the effect upon them will be devastating. “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” It is an unspeakably sombre picture. Men seldom weep, but in hell men weep uncontrollably. Jesus speaks of the place being totally characterized by tears.... In hell people do not just weep; they gnash their teeth. Having been shut out of the presence of God into the eternal blackness, permanently deprived of all that is wholesome and good, in bitter anger men and women grind their teeth in speechless rage. As they realize that once and for all, “I’ve been shut out!” they are overcome with a sense of eternal loss which leads to a depth of anger and fury that they find impossible to express in words ][/b(1985, pp. 47-48). In addressing the consciousness of those in hell, Wayne Jackson wrote: Punishment implies consciousness. It would be absurd to describe those who no longer exist as being “punished.” The wicked will be “tormented” with the fire of Gehenna (cf. Rev. 14:10-11). Torment certainly implies awareness (cf. Rev. 9:5; 11:10) [1998, 33[9]:35, emp. in orig.]. And torment there will be! When, in Revelation 20:10, John wrote of this torment, he employed the Greek word basanisthesontai, the root of which (basanizo) literally means “to torment, to be harassed, to torture, to vex with grievous pains” (Thayer, 1958, p. 96; cf. Matthew 8:6 regarding the one “tormented” [basanizomenos] with palsy). Previously, John spoke of those who inhabit hell as experiencing the “wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger” (Revelation 14:10). Imagine—experiencing the undiluted wrath of God! In the next verse, John lamented: “The smoke of their torment [notice: not the smoke of their annihilation!—BT] goeth up for ever and ever.” Little wonder, then, that the writer of Hebrews referred to the second death as “a sorer punishment” than any mere physical death (10:29). Hell is Eternal in Nature Surely, one of the most horrific aspects of hell is its eternal nature. Throughout the Bible, words like “eternal,” “forever and forever,” “unquenchable,” and “everlasting” are used repeatedly to describe the duration of the punishment that God will inflict upon the wicked. As the “Judge of all the earth,” God alone has the right to determine the nature and duration of whatever punishment is due to the wicked. And He has decreed that such punishment will be eternal in nature (Matthew 25:46; Revelation 14:10-11). That may not agree with our mind-set, or appeal to our sensitivities, but it is God’s word on the matter nevertheless. I once heard of a newspaper in Detroit, Michigan that ran a story about a man who (ironically) had been transferred from Hell, Michigan to a city by the name of Paradise. The news headline read: “Man Leaves Hell for Paradise!” Such an event might occur in this lifetime, but you may rest assured that it will not happen in the next (Luke 16:19-31). When Dante, in his Inferno, depicted the sign hanging over hell’s door as reading, “Abandon all hope, ye who enter here,” he did not overstate the case. Some, of course, have objected to the concept of eternal punishment because of such passages as Mark 12:9 (where Jesus foretold in a parable that God would “destroy” those who killed His beloved Son) and Matthew 10:28 (where Jesus told His disciples to fear Him who was able to “destroy” both soul and body in hell). But the belief that the soul will be annihilated is based, not on an understanding, but a misunderstanding, of the passages in question. In addition to referring to destruction, the Greek term apollumi employed in these two portions of Scripture (and approximately 90 more times elsewhere in the New Testament), also can mean “lose,” “perish,” or “lost.” As Vine pointed out: “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (1991, p. 211). Thayer defined apollumi as it appears in Matthew 10:28 as “to devote or give over to eternal misery” (1958, p. 64). Granted, it would be more comforting for the wicked to believe that at the end of this life they simply will be punished “for a little while” and then “drop out of existence,” rather than to have to face the stark realization of an eternal punishment in the fires of hell. But comforting or not, the question must be asked: Is such a belief in compliance with biblical teaching on this subject? While it is true that, on rare occasions in Scripture, words such as “everlasting” and “forever” may be used in a non-literal sense (i.e., the thing being discussed is not strictly eternal—e.g. Exodus 12:14 and Numbers 25:13), they never are used in such a sense when describing hell. The word aionios occurs some seventy times in the Greek New Testament where it is translated by such English terms as “eternal” or “everlasting” (e.g., “eternal fire,” Matthew 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7; “eternal punishment,” Matthew 25:46; “eternal destruction,” 2 Thessalonians 1:9; and “eternal judgment,” Hebrews 6:2). In his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Vine wrote of aionios: Moreover, it is used of persons and things which are in their nature, endless, as, e.g., of God (Rom 16:26); of His power (I Tim. 6:16), and of Him (I Peter 5:10); of the Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14); of the redemption effected by Christ (Heb. 9:12), and of the consequent salvation of men (5:9);...and of the resurrection body (II Cor. 5:1), elsewhere said to be “immortal” (I Cor. 15:53), in which that life will be finally realized (Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2) [1966, p. 43]. Thayer stated that aionios means “without end, never to cease, everlasting” (1958, p. 112). In his inspired discussion about the coming fate of false teachers, Jude assured the first-century Christians that those who perverted the truth would be punished. To illustrate his point, he reached back to Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25) as an example of those “suffering the punishment of eternal fire” (v. 7). G.L. Lawlor commented on Jude’s illustration as follows: Jude says these cities, their sin, and their terrible destruction lie before us as an example, deigma. Better, perhaps, the word might be rendered “sign,” that is, to show us the meaning and significance of something, i.e., this awful sin and God’s catastrophic judgment. The cities were destroyed by fire and brimstone, but the ungodly inhabitants are even now undergoing the awful torment of everlasting punishment. These cities are an example, they lie before us as a sign, to show the certainty of divine punishment upon an apostasy of life dreadful almost beyond description (1972, p. 70). But what did Lawlor mean when he said that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah “are even now undergoing the awful torment of everlasting punishment”? His point is this. The Greek hupechousai (rendered “suffering”) is a present participle and “shows that they were enduring ‘eternal fire’ even as Jude wrote! The primary force of the present tense in the Greek, especially as connected with a participial construction as here, is that of continuous action” (Denham, 1998, p. 607, emp. added). Greek scholar M.R. Vincent wrote regarding this point: “The participle is present, indicating that they are suffering to this day the punishment which came upon them in Lot’s time” (1946, 1:340). Brown remarked: “This grammatical construction simply means that Jude is saying that the inhabitants of the two cities not only suffered, but they continue to suffer. What a warning to those in rebellion to God!” (1999, p. 176). The Jews (and Jewish Christians) of Jude’s day would have understood that point because they knew and understood the significance attached to gehenna. Alfred Edersheim, who stood without equal as a Hebrew/inter-testamental period scholar, devoted an entire chapter of his monumental work, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, to the rabbinical and New Testament evidence on the subject of eternal punishment. His conclusion was that the Jews in the time of Christ understood gehenna as referring to a place of eternal, conscious torment for the wicked (1971, pp. 791-796). Eminent religious historian Phillip Schaff (1970, 2:136) reported that, except for the Sadducees (who believed in neither a resurrection for the righteous nor the wicked), the Jews of Christ’s day consistently held to a view of personal, eternal, conscious punishment—a truly important point for the following reason. During His ministry, Jesus was quite outspoken against those things that were wrong or misleading. In Matthew 22:23-33 He chastised the Sadducees severely regarding their erroneous views about the lack of a future existence. Yet, as noted earlier, He never opposed the Jewish concept of eternal punishment of the soul. Had the Jews been in error regarding the afterlife, surely the Son of God would have corrected them in as public a manner as He did on so many other points of Scripture. Instead, He repeatedly reaffirmed such a concept. His silence speaks volumes! Quote
B Humble Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 More answers on "aionios" When Christ spoke to the people of His day about the ultimate fate of humanity in eternity, He stated that the wicked would “go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.” As Denham has pointed out: “The word rendered ‘eternal’ is the same Greek word aionios, rendered earlier as ‘everlasting’ ” (1998, p. 615). The Lord’s double use of the term aionios is critically important in this discussion. J.W. McGarvey addressed this fact when he wrote: Whatever this Greek word means in the last clause of this sentence it means in the first; for it is an invariable rule of exegesis, that a word when thus repeated in the same sentence must be understood in the same sense, unless the context or the nature of the subject shows that there is a play on the word. There is certainly nothing in the context to indicate the slightest difference in meaning, nor can we know by the nature of the subject that the punishment spoken of is less durable than the life. It is admitted on all hands that in the expression “everlasting life” the term has its full force, and therefore it is idle and preposterous to deny that it has the same force in the expression “everlasting punishment.” The everlasting punishment is the same as the everlasting fire of verse 41. The punishment is by fire, and its duration is eternal (1875, pp. 221-222). There can be absolutely no doubt that the Lord intended to teach two specific states of conscious future existence. In fact, as James Orr observed in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: “The whole doctrine of the future judgment in the NT presupposes survival after death” (1956, 4:2502). Writing in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Joachim Guhrt stated that since “God’s life never ends, i.e., that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end,...even perdition must be called aionios, eternal” (1978, pp. 830,833). In this same vein, Guy N. Woods commented: “Our heavenly Father is described as ‘the everlasting God.’ (Romans 16:26.) Hell will be the inhabitation of the wicked so long as God himself exists” (1985, 127[9]:278). George Ladd thus noted: The adjective aionios does not of itself carry a qualitative significance, designating a life that is different in kind from human life. The primary meaning of the word is temporal. It is used of fire, punishment, sin, and places of abode; and these uses designate unending duration (1974, p. 255, emp. added). But that is only a portion of the Lord’s message. Orr went on to observe: “Here precisely the same word is applied to the punishment of the wicked as to the blessedness of the righteous.... Whatever else the term includes, it connotes duration” (1956, 4:2502, emp. added). When he discussed the definition and meaning of the word aionios in The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Herman Sasse noted that when the word is used “as a term for eschatological expectation,” if it conveys “eternity” for the rewards of the righteous it also must convey “the sense of ‘unceasing’ or ‘endless’ ” (1964, 1:209). Therefore, “however long then the righteous will experience the blessedness of eternal life is just how long the wicked will suffer everlasting punishment...” (Denham, 1998, p. 615, emp. in orig.). In his intriguing book, Hell on Trial—The Case for Eternal Punishment—Robert Peterson wrote the following under the chapter titled “The Case for Eternal Punishment”: “Jesus places the fates of the wicked and the righteous side by side.... The parallelism makes the meaning unmistakable: the punishment of the ungodly and the bliss of the godly both last forever” (1995, p. 196). Gary Workman spoke to this very point when he observed: New Testament writers used aion and aionios 141 times when speaking of eternity to convey the idea of unceasing, endless, and perpetual. If the word means “without end” when applied to the future blessedness of the saved, it must also mean “without end” when describing the future punishment of the lost (1992, 23[3]:33). Benton elaborated: The same word aionios, “eternal,” is used to describe both heaven and hell. If we take the position that hell is capable of termination then, to be consistent, we must believe that the same is true of heaven. But, from the rest of the Bible, that is plainly not the case. Heaven is for ever. We must stay with the plain meaning of the word “eternal.” Both heaven and hell are without end (1985, p. 55, emp. in orig.). These writers are correct. The fact that Christ made a special point of repeating aionios in the same sentence requires that we “stay with the plain meaning of the word.” Hoekema therefore concluded: The word aionios means without end when applied to the future blessedness of believers. It must follow, unless clear evidence is given to the contrary, that this word also means without end when used to describe the future punishment of the lost.... It follows, then, that the punishment which the lost will suffer after this life will be as endless as the future happiness of the people of God (1982, p. 270). Those who are willing to accept Christ’s teaching on heaven should have no trouble accepting His teaching on hell. Yet some do. Their refusal to accept biblical teaching on the eternal nature of the wicked, however, is not without consequences. John Benton accurately summarized the situation. Disregarding the doctrine of eternal damnation tends to make us doubt eternal salvation.... Though Revelation 21-22 proclaims the final fate of the wicked—existence in the lake of fire (21:8) and exclusion from the city of God (22:15)—these chapters trumpet more loudly the final destiny of the redeemed (1995, p. 217). But does it really matter what a person believes in this regard? Wayne Jackson answered that question when he wrote: “Those who contend that the wicked will be annihilated are in error. But is the issue one of importance? Yes. Any theory of divine retribution which undermines the full consequences of rebelling against God has to be most dangerous” (1998, 33[9]:35, emp. added). Weigh the consequences my friends. If you annihilationist are wrong,( and you are) you will suffer the fate of a false teacher and false prophet. God help you now, because he will not help you latter. Quote
Woody Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 Quote: Weigh the consequences my friends. If you annihilationist are wrong,( and you are) you will suffer the fate of a false teacher and false prophet. God help you now, because he will not help you latter. Are you friends with Rush ? OR ... Are you Rush? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Nan Posted November 1, 2008 Moderators Posted November 1, 2008 [quote name='B HumbleWeigh the consequences my friends. If you annihilationist are wrong' date='( and you are) you will suffer the fate of a false teacher and false prophet. God help you now, because he will not help you latter. [/quote'] You must now feel you have done your duty in warning us annihilationists of our error and danger. But we so many more dangers in accepting the inherent immortality of the human soul, a concept which we believe is antiBiblical. The nonimmortality of the human soul is the basis for our belief in annihilationism. Quote
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 [quote name='B HumbleWeigh the consequences my friends. If you annihilationist are wrong' date='( and you are) you will suffer the fate of a false teacher and false prophet. God help you now, because he will not help you latter. [/quote'] You must now feel you have done your duty in warning us annihilationists of our error and danger. But we so many more dangers in accepting the inherent immortality of the human soul, a concept which we believe is antiBiblical. The nonimmortality of the human soul is the basis for our belief in annihilationism. I don't think you understand the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. The doctrine does not teach "inherent immortality". No one has inherent immortality except God, not even the angels. All things exist by him and through him. Nonetheless, it is his will that the rebellious and the false teachers and false preachers as well as unrepented sinners, first be given opportunity to repent and afterwards, should they choose not to repent, they are sent to eternal punishment. Quote
Woody Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Oh good. Cause I haven't been asked to repent. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
B Humble Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble What? God is supposed to bow down to man and change so man will accept him? No, the fact is your own husband refuses to accept Christ and God as he is. So, he made a God in his own image he could accept. That is commonly called Idolatry. What people do is refuse to accept God as he is. Then they think if they can deceive themselves into worshiping a God that is to THEIR LIKING, THEN, they will worship that God. The True God will not accept anyone who will not worship Him as HE is. Whether you like him, love him or worship him, is up to you. However, HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE SO YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITH HIM. THAT WOULD MAKE YOU GOD AND GOD, YOUR SERVANT. [/quote'] You know not of which you speak. My husband is an ordained minister and a dedicated follower of God, seeking to do His will as revealed in all things. He is an excellent Bible student and would certainly reject the interpretation of the wicked having everlasting life (if life means conscious existence), which you promulgate. My point was that God desires a free will choice, not a fear driven caving in, in those who follow Him. I am sure we all agree when God says that He is the LORD, He does not change, including to fit the desires of would be followers. He presents a truth which can draw people to Him. I do not find that truth in what you present. John is presenting a careful study of the way I believe, and I will not make a long post that would duplicate his. Answer: Nan, I'm well aware that the carnal mind would much rather have soul sleep than eternal punishment. God desires that man correctly worship God in FEAR and in LOVE. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Read Mt.10:28 and see if Christ himself warns you to FEAR HIM more than the persecutors who may torture you for an hour, days or months even years. YOU BETTER FEAR CHRIST MORE THAN THEM. The book of Revelation is replete with warnings of the physical torment of the wicked from all kinds of creatures IN THIS LIFE, HOW MUCH MORE IN THE NEXT LIFE FOR THE UNREPENTED. I would not expect a darkened mind with teachings of soul sleep originated in atheism to find "truth" in what I teach. Darkness does not like the light and seeks to shut it out. Quote
Moderators Nan Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Mr/Ms Humble You have been given many reasons why most people on this board believe as we do. You do not listen. We share a Bible based belief that is not SDA alone. If you do not see things that way, that is your choice and right. You are not being issued with spiritual threats and veiled accusations of deliberately avoiding the truth by others on this forum. I have given you permission to stop warning me, so you will not be held accountable if I am wrong. I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, AND AM CONVINCED THAT HE IS ABLE TO GUARD WHAT I HAVE ENTRUSTED TO HIM FOR THAT DAY. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Answer: Nan, I'm well aware that the carnal mind would much rather have soul sleep than eternal punishment. God desires that man correctly worship God in FEAR and in LOVE. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Read Mt.10:28 and see if Christ himself warns you to FEAR HIM more than the persecutors who may torture you for an hour, days or months even years. YOU BETTER FEAR CHRIST MORE THAN THEM. The book of Revelation is replete with warnings of the physical torment of the wicked from all kinds of creatures IN THIS LIFE, HOW MUCH MORE IN THE NEXT LIFE FOR THE UNREPENTED. I would not expect a darkened mind with teachings of soul sleep originated in atheism to find "truth" in what I teach. Darkness does not like the light and seeks to shut it out. Instead of posting monologues on your opinions, please answer questions that deal with the Bible evidence for your beliefs, such as the following: The truth is that on this subject there has been a variety of views among leaders of the Christian church. As said before, William Tyndale believed in the non-immortality of the soul, as did John Milton, and many others. Martin Luther wrote books in which he also stated his views against the immortality of the soul. Humble, could you tell me what the punishment for sin is? What does the Bible say? In Romans 6: 28, God's word says that the wages of sin is 1) Endless torment ?______________ 2) Death? _________________ 3) Endless burning? ________________ Please compare this with Gen. 2: 17. There God tells Adam that the result of disobeying God's command will be 1) Endless torment? _________________ 2) Endless burning? ________________ 3) "You shall surely die"? ________________ We're both agreed that the punishment for sin and rejection of Christ is eternal and permanent. The thing we're divided about is what that punishment is. Is the punishment endless torture and torment? Or is it endless death? When a criminal is sentenced to death, when does the punishment for his crime end? Does it end after the criminal dies? No. It is obvious that as far as this life is concerned, the punishment is without end, even though the criminal is not conscious of the punishment after his heart stops beating and his brain ceases to function. In the same way, the punishment for the sinner who rejects Christ is endless death and therefore the punishment does not end when the unrepentant sinner dies. The punishment continues forever. Do you agree? Where do you disagree? Now we have to decide what the Bible teaches about death. What is death? What happens to a man when he dies? Does the Bible teach that some part of man is fully conscious after he ceases to breath and dies? That is, is the soul of man immortal? Please post all-- or as many as you consider important-- of the verses in the Bible which you believe show without question that the soul of man is immortal. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Orr went on to observe: “Here precisely the same word is applied to the punishment of the wicked as to the blessedness of the righteous.... Whatever else the term includes, it connotes duration” (1956, 4:2502, emp. added). When he discussed the definition and meaning of the word aionios in The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Herman Sasse noted that when the word is used “as a term for eschatological expectation,” if it conveys “eternity” for the rewards of the righteous it also must convey “the sense of ‘unceasing’ or ‘endless’ ” (1964, 1:209). Therefore, “however long then the righteous will experience the blessedness of eternal life is just how long the wicked will suffer everlasting punishment...” (Denham, 1998, p. 615, emp. in orig.). ... Benton elaborated: The same word aionios, “eternal,” is used to describe both heaven and hell. If we take the position that hell is capable of termination then, to be consistent, we must believe that the same is true of heaven. But, from the rest of the Bible, that is plainly not the case. Heaven is for ever. We must stay with the plain meaning of the word “eternal.” Both heaven and hell are without end (1985, p. 55, emp. in orig.). These writers are correct. The fact that Christ made a special point of repeating aionios in the same sentence requires that we “stay with the plain meaning of the word.” Hoekema therefore concluded: The word aionios means without end when applied to the future blessedness of believers. It must follow, unless clear evidence is given to the contrary, that this word also means without end when used to describe the future punishment of the lost.... It follows, then, that the punishment which the lost will suffer after this life will be as endless as the future happiness of the people of God (1982, p. 270). For any of the above to apply to the dead, you must first show from the Bible that humans have an immortal soul or spirit, but you haven't done this. Give all the verses in the Bible which show that humans were made with an immortal spirit or soul. Are you interested in a real exchange of views or do you want simply to state your viewpoint? Up to this point in the thread, you have merely posted monologues. That's not a good way to impress people that you know the truth of what you believe. Your posting seems to show that you cannot answer the questions that have been posed to you about this subject. The threads are made for conversation and getting to know what others believe and think. Would you like to get involved in this aspect of the threads? It's far better, and you will learn more from it than by simply posting long monologues which basically ignore what people have said to you. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 2, 2008 Moderators Posted November 2, 2008 Thayer stated that aionios means “without end, never to cease, everlasting” (1958, p. 112). It does carry this meaning when it is used with regard to God and to those who are immortal, such as the righteous who are given immortality when Christ returns. See 1 Cor. 15: 53, 54. Romans 2: 7 shows plainly that humans "seek immortality" and will be given "eternal life." This proves conclusively that humans aren't born with any part inherently immortal or capable of living eternally. Therefore it is not possible for anionios to mean "without end" when applied to people as we are presently constituted. People are subject to death. Life ends when we die. That is what death is: an end to life and consciousness. God will raise us up in two resurrections, but without the resurrection, the Bible says all humans would be "completely lost," or "perished." In other words, we would have no opportunity for life or consciousness apart from the gift of life from God at the resurrection. Please respond directly to this and do not simply post a monologue on your beliefs. Post the Bible texts which show that mankind is naturally immortal so that sinners never cease to live and continue endlessly to have consciousness. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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