Baptized for the dead?

[cricket]

Exercise kindness.

[Woody]

Ask ... What would Jesus say.

[B Humble]

Ask ... What would Jesus say.

It was quite common for Jesus to both warn and rebuke the heretics of his day.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

About Tyndale, Thomas More, himself a martyr said, "searching for errors in the Tyndale Bible was similar to searching for water in the sea", and charged Tyndale's translation of Obedience of a Christian Man with having about a thousand falsely translated errors.

Do you know the history of the Reformation and the history of how Tyndale translated the Bible?

Do you read the King James Version?

Thomas More was the man responsible for William Tyndale's being burned at the stake. Do you know who Thomas More was?

Quote:

Even at that, I would say that Tyndale himself, would pass out and die over the errors in the Clear Word bible.

The Clear Word bible is only outmatched by the JW's version. Well, maybe not outmatched, it's too close to call which is the most abominable.

The Clear Word, Humble, is a paraphrase, and the Introduction to the Clear Word explains that it is a paraphrase and is not intended for serious study of the Scriptures. It is similar to the Living Bible. They are like commentaries on the Bible.

The difference between the Clear Word and the New World Translation is that the latter claims to be the most accurate translation of the Bible, and the Clear Word does not. As I said, the Clear Word has a note at the beginning which tells the reader it is not a translation but a paraphrase. It is important to know the difference between a true translation and a paraphrase.

If they are "commentaries" why are they then called "bible"? Both are deeply heretical.

[B Humble]

B Humble?

Why do you call your self Humble? Is that your actual last name?

You come across as arrogant and all things not humble.

I have many weaknesses, while at the same time, I'm willing to let God be God instead of making him into a god of my liking and choosing.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Ask ... What would Jesus say.

It was quite common for Jesus to both warn and rebuke the heretics of his day.

So. May I assume that you are calling us heretics?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

B Humble?

Why do you call your self Humble? Is that your actual last name?

You come across as arrogant and all things not humble.

I have many weaknesses, while at the same time, I'm willing to let God be God instead of making him into a god of my liking and choosing.

May I assume that you are the only person on Earth doing this?

[Nan]

Not sure if we are heretics or just carnally minded individuals walking in darkness we choose not to change.

[Nan]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

B Humble?

Why do you call your self Humble? Is that your actual last name?

You come across as arrogant and all things not humble.

I have many weaknesses, while at the same time, I'm willing to let God be God instead of making him into a god of my liking and choosing.

Most of us here feel that your way of letting God be God is an accomplishment of the devil, and that those who accept

such belief are wide open for any heresy the evil one wishes to impart "through" those no longer alive.

Please note, I am not calling you anything, I am expressing my views on your belief.

[Woody]

You will know them by their LOVE.

[B Humble]

More Reasons why Sheol can't be the grave:

Conscious Emotions in Sheol

God's judgement on the wicked does not cease when the wicked die in their sins. Thus some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following

a. God's anger (Deut. 32:22): According to Moses, the wicked experience the fire of YHWH's anger in the "lowest parts of Sheol." This passage would make no sense if the wicked are nonexistent and Sheol is the grave.

b. Distress (Ps. 116:3): The Hebrew word matzar refers to the distress that is felt when in the straits of a difficulty. It is found in this sense in Ps. 118:5. Also, the word chevel, which is the poetic parallel for matzar, means "cords of distress" (2 Sam. 22:6; Ps. 18:6).

c. Writhing in pain (Job 26:5): The Hebrew word chool means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth.

It is obvious that nonexistence can hardly experience anger, distress or pain. Thus, there are hints in the above passages that not everyone experiences blessedness in the afterlife. Beyond these three passages, the Old Testament does not speak of torment in the intermediate state. While it speaks of the "everlasting humiliation and contempt" which awaits the wicked after the resurrection (Dan. 12:2), the Old Testament tells us very little about the intermediate suffering of the wicked in Sheol. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)

Job 26:5-6 "The departed spirits tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants. "Naked is Sheol before Him. And Abaddon has no covering. pain

The spirits of the dead are twisting and turning in pain. Exactly like Luke 16 and the rich man

[B Humble]

You will know them by their LOVE.

My friend, would it be love to leave you in the worst kind of heresy, that promotes promising soul sleep to the wicked?

Is it love, to allow be in silence while some teach that you can murder millions of people and you'll get soul sleep for your punishment contrary to the scripture?

Is it love, to be silent when you all promote a doctrine that supports atheistic annihhilationism.

[Woody]

Yes. Please be silent.

I give you permission ... just as Nan gave you permission.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

You will know them by their LOVE.

My friend, would it be love to leave you in the worst kind of heresy, that promotes promising soul sleep to the wicked?

Is it love, to allow be in silence while some teach that you can murder millions of people and you'll get soul sleep for your punishment contrary to the scripture?

Is it love, to be silent when you all promote a doctrine that supports atheistic annihhilationism.

The correct term is "tough love". The kind of love that every good and wise person has for a wayward child.

[John317]

Mr. Humble, clear your PM box. As the moderator of the thread, I need to send you a private message.

Either leave a message here that it's been done or send me a PM. Thanks.

[B Humble]

More about Sheol and the Grave -

1. Hades is a Greek word used in the New Testament to denote the realm of conscious departed spirits and never refers to the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew word in the Old Testament that is generally equivalent to Hades.

2. Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (an Neo-Sadduceeian who denies conscious life after death) admits the word HADES means punishment and not the grave in Luke 16: "The word hades also occurs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, but with a different meaning. While in the 10 references we have just examined hades refers to the grave or the realm of the dead, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it denotes the place of punishment for the ungodly (Luke 16:23). The reason for this exceptional use will be explained shortly. Obviously, dualists make great use of this parable to support the notion of the conscious existence of disembodied souls during the intermediate state." (Immortality or Resurrection?, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Seventh-day Adventist, Ch 5: State of the Dead) When a man like Bacchiocchi (whom many Arians look to for help with their false doctrines) admits that the word hades INDEED means a place of torture and punishment, we feel progress is being made! Thanks Sam! You made our point!

3. The first step in understanding any ancient or foreign word is to check the lexicons, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc., which deal with that language. Brown, Driver and Briggs based their A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 982) on the work of Genesius, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars who ever lived. They define Sheol as: "The underworld... whither man descends at death" They trace the origin of Sheol to either sha-al, which means the spirit world to which mediums directed their questions to the departed, or Sha-al, which refers to the hollow place in the earth where the souls of men went at death. Langenscheidt's Hebrew/English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p.337) defines Sheol as: "netherworld, realm of the dead, Hades." The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia in volume IV, p.2761, defines Sheol as: "the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek: Hades." Keil and Delitzsch state that "Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form from sha-al, to demand, the demanding, applied to the place where inexorably summons all men into its shade." [Commentaries On the Old Testament, Vol. l, p. 338] The lexicographical evidence is so clear that the great Princeton scholar, B.B. Warfield, stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no "hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the persistence of the soul in life after death....The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol. [selected Shorter Writings of Beniamin B. Warfield, pp. 339,345] (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p.72,73)

4. Sheol is a shadowy place or a place of darkness (Job 10:21,22; Ps. 143:3). Evidently it is another dimension which is not exposed to the rays of the sun. It is viewed as being "down," "beneath the earth," or in "the lower parts of the earth" (Job 11:8; Isa. 44:23; 57:9; Ezek. 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech should not be literalized into an absurd cosmology. They merely indicate that Sheol is not a part of this world but has an existence of its own in another dimension. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)

5. The KJV and the NIV mistranslate Hades as Hell. Hades and hell are two different places at two different times. Hades is the temporary realm of both good and evil departed spirits before the second coming. Hell is the final eternal abode of the wicked after judgement. No one is in Hell (gehenna) now.

6. Hades/Sheol is pictured as having two compartments in both the Old and New Testaments. These compartments are best illustrated in Lk 16 where the rich man went to the "torment" compartment and the poor man went to the "comfort" compartment. Between these two compartments is an "impassable gulf".

7. It seems that Sheol has different sections. There is the contrast between the "lowest part" and the "highest part" of Sheol (Deut. 32:22). This figurative language implies that there are divisions or distinctions within Sheol. Perhaps the Old Testament's emphatic distinction between the righteous and the wicked in this life indicates that this distinction continues on in the afterlife. Thus the wicked are said to be in the "lowest part," while the righteous are in the "higher part" of Sheol. While this is not clearly (repeated from the previous section): stated in the Old Testament, there seems to be some kind of distinction within Sheol. Later rabbinic writers clearly taught that Sheol had two sections. The righteous were in bliss in one section while the wicked were in torment in the other. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)

8. In the Old Testament, the two expressions "lowest Sheol" and "pit" [Heb: bowr] always denotes the compartment where the wicked go and are punished, like the rich man in Lk 16. Therefore "lowest Sheol" and "pit" are exclusively used to denote where the wicked go after death awaiting resurrection and judgement.

9. The righteous are never thrown into the pit. [Heb: bowr] If the pit is merely another word for the grave, then both the wicked and righteous should go there.

10. While Hades never refers the grave, on very rare occasions Sheol seems refer to the grave. There are separate Greek and Hebrew words for grave. (GRAVE: Greek: mneema; Hebrew: kever) Although the body is pictured as returning from the grave (mneema or kever) the body is never pictured as returning from Sheol/Hades. Conversely, although the soul is pictured as returning from Sheol/Hades, the soul is never pictured as returning from the grave (mneema or kever). Finally, there is no passage where a "body" is specifically said to go to Sheol! This is an important dichotomy that refutes the Neo-Sadduceeian concept of the dead being extinct and unconscious because if Sheol and Hades are nothing more than the literal grave, then physical bodies should be seen coming out of the grave.

11. This distinction is between "Sheol" and "Kever" is maintained in the Septuagint as well. (The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.) This proves that the distinction was well understood 2000 years ago.

12. Just as the word "spirit" sometimes denotes breath or wind, the vast majority of the places where "spirit" is used cannot refer merely to breath or wind. God is a Spirit! Likewise Hebrew word "Sheol" sometimes refers merely to a literal physical grave "6 feet under". However the vast majority of usages of Sheol, it cannot refer merely the grave but the conscious realm of the dead. When an Neo-Sadduceeian attempts to prove that man has no spirit or soul by refering to a passage where spirit means "breath" or soul refers to a dead body of a man, we quickly agree replying, "Yes "spirit" in Gen 2:7, but God is a Spirit! Is he just breath? Likewise when Arians point to the few rare places where Sheol refers to the literal grave, we quickly agree, then point them to the vast majority of usages where a physical grave cannot fit the context.

13. There are many passages that directly teach that there is consciousness, emotion and communication in Hades/Sheol.

14. One of the clearest proofs of consciousness in Sheol or Hades, is the fact that Jonah was pictured as being conscious in the belly of the sea monster for 3 days. The text, Jonah 2:2, says that Jonah was in Sheol. Jesus said "just as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster for three days, so also the son of man will be." Of course Arians make a double mistake of arguing that Jesus (God the Son) ceased to exist and became extinct for the three days He was in Hades.

15. NOTICE "Sheol Fire", "Hades fire"

is found in these verses: Lk 16:24 "I am in agony in this flame."; Deut 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains."; Rev 9:1-2 "And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

16. What is important about comparative studies is that they place biblical words in their historical context. The word Sheol should thus be understood in terms of what it meant in the Hebrew language and by its parallel in the other languages of that time. Why? When God wanted Israel to believe something which was unique and contrary to what the surrounding cultures believed, He always clearly condemned and forbade the pagan beliefs and then stressed the uniqueness of the new concept. For example, in order to establish monotheism, God repeatedly and clearly condemned the pagan concept of polytheism and stressed monotheism. While God clearly condemned polytheism in the Old Testament, at no time did He ever condemn belief in a conscious afterlife. At no time did God ever put forth the concept of annihilation or nonexistence as the fate of man's soul at death. Also, when Israel had a unique and contrary belief, the pagan societies around Israel would use this belief as the grounds to persecute the Jews. Thus the Jews were persecuted for rejecting polytheism and believing in monotheism. Daniel's three friends who were thrown into a fiery furnace are an excellent example of such persecution. Yet, where in recorded history did pagan religions or societies persecute the Jews because they denied a conscious afterlife? To think that the Jews could go against the universally held concept of a conscious afterlife and that the pagans would not seize upon this as a pretense for persecution is absurd. Since the universality of belief in a conscious afterlife is irrefutable, and there is no evidence that Israel deviated from this belief, we must assume that the Old Testament taught a conscious afterlife in Sheol as the fate of man's soul or spirit. It is universally recognized by modern Talmudic scholars that Sheol never meant the grave or unconsciousness in rabbinic literature. Ginzburg states that in rabbinic writings one finds a consistent conviction that "there exists after this world a condition of happiness or unhappiness for an individual." Guttman adds, "The Talmud, like the Apocryphal literature, knows of a kind of intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection; true retribution will be dispensed only after the resurrection of the body. But along with this, we also find the fate in a retribution coming immediately after death and in a life of blessedness for the soul in the beyond." The rabbinic tradition before, during and after the time of Christ describes the soul departing the body and descending into Sheol at death. The rabbis consistently pictured both the righteous and the wicked as conscious after death. The evidence is so overwhelming that the classic Princeton theologian, Charles Hodge, stated, "That the Jews believed in a conscious life after death is beyond dispute." The annihilationists have never discovered any evidence that the majority of Jews believed that the soul was extinguished at death. There is no conflict in the rabbinic literature over this issue. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 74)

17. Not once is Hades the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word for grave (kever). Not once does it mean nonexistence or unconsciousness. The times it is used for words other than Sheol, it clearly means the world of spirits. There is, therefore, no way to escape the conclusion that the translators of the Septuagint clearly understood that Hades referred to the realm of disembodied souls or spirits; and, we must also emphasize, that the translators of the Septuagint did not obtain this concept from Platonic Greek thought but from the Hebrew concept of Sheol itself. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 82)

18. While bodies are unconscious in the grave, those in Sheol are viewed as being conscious (Isa 14:4-7; 44:23; Ezek. 31:16; 32:21). (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)

19. NOTICE THIS Those in Sheol are pictured as conversing with each other and even making moral judgements on the lifestyle of new arrivals (Isa. 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek. 32:21). They are thus conscious entities while in Sheol. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)

20. Once in Sheol, all experiences related exclusively to physical life are no longer possible. Those in Sheol do no marry and procreate children because they do not have bodies. Neither do they plan and execute business transactions. Once in Sheol, they cannot attend public worship in the temple and give sacrifices and praise. There are no bodily pleasures such as eating or drinking. Those in Sheol do not have any wisdom or knowledge about what is happening in the land of the living. They are cut off from the living. They have entered a new dimension of reality with its own kind of existence (Ps. 6:5; Eccl. 9:10, etc.). (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)

[John317]

The correct term is "tough love". The kind of love that every good and wise person has for a wayward child.

Be courteous and treat posters as you would have posters treat you. No personal attacks.

Carry on a polite, friendly exchange of views rather than dictating to others and ridiculing them.

If you can do this, it will make the Forum a happy, learning experience. If you can't do it, and if you continue the same behavior on the Forum, you will wear out your welcome.

As I've explained before, questioning and criticizing a viewpoint is fine, but it needs to be done in a way that is not a personal attack, etc.

[John317]

Yes, I have Death and The Afterlife by Robert Morey in my library and have studied it carefully.

Don't post any more by Morey until you have replied to the posts that have been directed to you and until the current post has been studied and answered.

There are many posts which you have not responded to.

THE MODERATOR NEEDS TO CONTACT YOU BY PM. Clear the Private Mail box, Humble.

[B Humble]

Yes, I have Death and The Afterlife by Robert Morey in my library and have studied it carefully.

Don't post any more by Morey until you have replied to the posts that have been directed to you and until the current post has been studied and answered.

There are many posts which you have not responded to.

THE MODERATOR NEEDS TO CONTACT YOU BY PM. Clear the Private Mail box, Humble.

I've cleared them. I haven't had any messages

[John317]

More about Sheol and the Grave -

1. Hades is a Greek word used in the New Testament to denote the realm of conscious departed spirits and never refers to the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew word in the Old Testament that is generally equivalent to Hades.

Post Bible evidence for this. Just give the verses, either by citing them or quoting them.

2.Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (an Neo-Sadduceeian who denies conscious life after death)

Explain why Bacchiocchi is referred to as a Neo-Sadduceeian.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, I have Death and The Afterlife by Robert Morey in my library and have studied it carefully.

Don't post any more by Morey until you have replied to the posts that have been directed to you and until the current post has been studied and answered.

There are many posts which you have not responded to.

THE MODERATOR NEEDS TO CONTACT YOU BY PM. Clear the Private Mail box, Humble.

I've cleared them. I haven't had any messages

When I tried to send you the following message, I was told you are over your private topic limit, so I could not send it. So I will post the message below:

Hi BHumble,

We welcome you to the Forum to discuss any issue, but I caution you about being impolite or discourteous to other posters. I have talked to you before about this, and you improve for a while, then return to your old habits.

You may call into question any idea or any interpretation but you need to do it in a courteous way and not in a way that ridicules people.

TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WANT TO BE TREATED. That is very important. Stay on topic. Don't add negative personal comments to posters and don't ridicule a whole denomination or individuals.

Follow directions by the moderator on these matters.

Remember THE GOLDEN RULE, DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

Now let's have a good time looking seriously at a very important Bible topic.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

More about Sheol and the Grave -

1. Hades is a Greek word used in the New Testament to denote the realm of conscious departed spirits and never refers to the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew word in the Old Testament that is generally equivalent to Hades.

Post Bible evidence for this. Just give the verses, either by citing them or quoting them.

2.Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (an Neo-Sadduceeian who denies conscious life after death)

Explain why Bacchiocchi is referred to as a Neo-Sadduceeian.

[John317]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Post Bible evidence for this. Just give the verses' date=' either by citing them or quoting them.

2.Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (an Neo-Sadduceeian who denies conscious life after death)

Explain why Bacchiocchi is referred to as a Neo-Sadduceeian. [/quote']

Quote:

John, you are not reading my replies. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking me to do things, I've done already.

The reason I ask is that I am looking for further clarification.

Quote:

Bacciocchi is a Neo-Sadducee because, he believes as a Neo-Sadducee. Adventist are Neo-Sadduceeian too. The Sadducees were annihilations of Christ's day, whom Jesus corrected them for their doctrine.

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, in angels or spirits, the last judgment, life after death, divine providence, or a coming Messiah.

The Sadducees attacked Jesus by attacking His belief in the resurrection.

Bacchiocchi believes in all of these. So do all SDAs. Of course we do not believe in life immediately after death, but we do definitely believe as the Bible teaches on that subject-- which is that the dead rest in their graves until the resurrection. This is not what the Sadducees believed. Therefore it is untrue that SDAs are Neo-Sadduceeian.

Quote:

Josephus wrote about the Pharisees with whom, Christ confirms repeatedly their teaching about the immortality of the soul and the punishment of the wicked immediately after death and in the resurrection:

... Josephus writes: " But the Sadducees are those that compose the second order, and take away fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades" (which were believed and taught by the Pharisees) Thus, it is correct to call Adventist Neo-Sadducees.

The canon for us as Christians is the Bible, not the beliefs of the Pharisees or the Sadducees.

The Pharisees had a lot of false teachings so we shouldn't base our beliefs on what they thought. And Christ certainly did not agree with the Pharisees on many things, either.

What we are discussing here is the Bible teaching, including those of Jesus, not the teachings of other groups who may or may not have been right.

[B Humble]