Baptized for the dead?

[John317]

Apparently, you don't know what it means to sleep. Are you dead at night? To "SLEEP" means the body is at rest, while the spirit is still active.

Why is death referred to as a "sleep"? Is it because death is exactly like sleep in every detail? No. It is because when asleep a person is unconscious, unaware of what is happening, and because the sleeper will arise after his sleep.

Have you ever lost consciousness, such as when a person is knocked unconscious? Or have you ever been put to sleep for surgery? If you ever have, you will know that during such times, you are not aware of the passage of time. Hours and days and even years seem but a moment. This is the way it will seem to Adam and to Paul and others who have died and are waiting for Jesus to return. You close your eyes in death, and the next moment, you open them (if saved) to see Jesus coming.

That message of the Bible about death and the resurrection is beautiful and great news.

[John317]

[

Yes, BUT, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS, HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, WHILE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH, AND AT THE SAME TIMES SAYS HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, 500 YEARS AFTER ABRAHAM WAS DEAD IN THE FLESH. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL IS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN WHEN CHRIST THEN CONCLUDES "ALL LIVE UNTO HIM" THUS, WHILE ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB WERE DEAD IN THE FLESH, THEY WERE ALIVE UNTO GOD!

Why did Jesus say, "All live UNTO HIM"?

Why not, "All are really alive" if that is what He was teaching?

And why does the text say twice that the subject was the resurrection and not the immortality of the soul?

Look at the text from the viewpoint of resurrection since that is what it says it is all about.

Does it say Abraham and the others "were dead in the flesh"? When they die, does the Bible indicate that they only died "in the flesh"?

When God told Adam and Eve they would die and return to dust, he did not say, "Your bodies will die and return to dust," but rather, "YOU WILL DIE and return to the dust."

But notice what the devil says, "BUT YOU WILL NOT DIE. YOU WILL BECOME AS GODS."

Did Satan lie or did God lie? Who told the truth?

Mormons actually say that Satan told the truth here. They say that God lied. Imagine it! Mormon believe that we don't actually die. They believe that when we "die" we really become more knowledgeable and more aware than when we were alive on this earth. Do you agree?

[John317]

Jesus called, Lazarus's soul from Hades, just as the other Lazarus was in hades speaking with "Father Abraham.

Where does the Bible say this?

The resurrection story of Lazarus, Jesus' friend, says nothing about a soul traveling from a place called Hades.

And in the parable of Lazarus, he has a body when in Hades. So it is obviously not talking something to be taken literally.

Are these your best pieces of evidence that the soul is immortal? If it is, you have lost your case. Are you ready to look closely at the texts that teach the non-immortality of the soul?

Remember the Bible does not teach contradictory doctrines about what happens when we die. The Bible is very clear about it.

The reason you see immortality of the soul being taught is that you that you are taking such things as the parable of Lazarus and the rich man and making it say something it was never intended to teach.

It's a lie of Satan-- in fact, Satan preached the first sermon on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. And notice it did not come from God but indeed contradicted God. Satan directly called God a liar. We do the same, whether we realize or not, when we teach the immortality of the soul.

[John317]

.... I didn't mention the resurrection because that wasn't the discussion we were having. The resurrection was understood. what you miss is the historical context, the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL. THE PHARISEES DID BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY. CHRIST CONFIRMED THE BOTH THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY IN THE ENTIRE CONTEXT.

1) What is the purpose of the resurrection if the believers are already in heaven with God when they die?

2) It is not necessary to believe in the immortality of the soul in order to believe in the resurrection. In fact, quite the contrary. Why the resurrection if the soul is immortal? See Acts 17: 32. The Greek believed in the immortality of the soul. Why then did they laugh and mock Paul when he mentioned the resurrection?

3) Also, if Paul and Jesus taught that we go to God immediately after death, why did Jesus talk only about His returning for his followers, as in John 14: 3? Why didn't he say, "I will see you when you die"? And why didn't Paul tell the Thessalonians that they need not worry about their loved ones who have died, because they are already in heaven with the Lord?

Quote:

HUMBLE-- We already KNOW Christ believed and TAUGHT the immortality of the soul from Luke 16:19-31.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you can't find "evidence" of Christ's teaching the immortality of the soul anywhere except in a parable and Matt. 22: 31, 31?

I wish you would list all the texts that you believe teach the immortality of the soul. Why don't you do this? It makes it seem that all the evidence you have is in this parable and in a few other verses such as Matt. 22.

Where does the Bible say clearly and directly that the soul of man is alive and immortal and conscious after death?

If Christ taught it, why didn't He use clear language like "the immortal soul," etc.?

But what was the purpose of the parable in Luke 16: 19-31?

Was it to teach what happens after death? No. Jesus is teaching that wealth and prosperity on earth is not an indication of whether a person is saved or not. Jesus was showing, also, that there is no second chance for salvation after death. If we don't believe the prophets and accept what they say in this present life, we can't expect a change in the next life.

Those are the lessons learned in the parable. You twist the Scriptures when you use the Bible in a way it was not meant to be used.

[B Humble]

[John317]

JOHN3:17--

Remember that the blessed hope of the believer is not death but the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection which will take place at that time. Titus 2: 13.

Quote:

HUMBLE-- The resurrection is the great fulfillment of the end of time,

Why? Why is it the great fulfillment if all the saved go to be with God without it?

Do you, in fact, believe that the righteous dead go to be with God immediately after death?

Quote:

HUMBLE-- nonetheless it takes NOTHING away from the comfort, peace and solace in the intermediate state. In Revelation, we are told that the SOULS UNDER THE ALTER SEEK CHRIST'S INTERVENTION BUT ARE TOLD TO "REST" AWHILE.. THE SOULS OF THE MARTYRS ARE IN COMMUNICATION WITH GOD AND ABLE TO HEAR HIM AND SEEK HIM, NOT SOME NOTHINGNESS, AS YOU SUPPOSE HANGING AROUND SPACE.

Compare what you have said above with the verses below--

Ecc. 3: 18-21-- 18 I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Ecc. 9: 2-10---

2 All things come alike to all:

One event happens to the righteous and the wicked;

To the good, the clean, and the unclean;

To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice.

As is the good, so is the sinner;

He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath.

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they will die;

But the dead know nothing,

And they have no more reward,

For the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;

Nevermore will they have a share

In anything done under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave [sheol] where you are going.

Ps. 115: 17--

17 The dead do not praise the LORD,

Nor any who go down into silence.

Ps. 6: 5-- For in death there is no remembrance of You;

In the grave [sheol] who will give You thanks?

1 Cor. 15: 16-18--

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished [are completely lost].

Job 14: 21, regarding the dead--

21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it;

They are brought low, and he does not perceive it.

Ps. 89: 48--

48 What man can live and not see death?

Can he deliver his life [soul, Hebrew: nephish] from the power of the grave [sheol]?

Ps. 37: 20--

But the wicked shall perish;

And the enemies of the LORD,

Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.

Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Isaiah 1: 28--

The destruction of transgressors and of sinners shall be together,

And those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed [Hebrew: Kalah, to be finished, to be at an end, to vanish, to cease; to be entirely consumed; Modern Language Bible: annihilated].

Of the destruction of the wicked--

Rev. 20:9-- They [ALL the wicked] went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Malachi 4: 1,3--

The Great Day of God

1 For behold, the day is coming,

Burning like an oven,

And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.

And the day which is coming shall burn them up ,”

Says the LORD of hosts,

“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.

3 You shall trample the wicked,

For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

On the day that I do this,”

Says the LORD of hosts.

Study these and later I will post many more such clear Bible statements. Remember the Bible teaches these things plainly and does not contradict itself. God's word does not teach one thing and then another.

Why build your belief on a parable that was not meant to teach the immortality of the soul? Why build it on the misreading of a text such as Matt. 22: 32 when that verse is about the resurrection of the dead and not the immortality of the soul?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Why is death referred to as a "sleep"? Is it because death is exactly like sleep in every detail? No. It is because when asleep a person is unconscious, unaware of what is happening, and because the sleeper will arise after his sleep. [

Have you ever lost consciousness, such as when a person is knocked unconscious? Or have you ever been put to sleep for surgery? If you ever have, you will know that during such times, you are not aware of the passage of time. Hours and days and even years seem but a moment. This is the way it will seem to Adam and to Paul and others who have died and are waiting for Jesus to return. You close your eyes in death, and the next moment, you open them (if saved) to see Jesus coming. [/b']

Sorry, that is not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught the the wicked went to hades and was "tormented in this flame", WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO A "RESURRECTION". He also taught, EXACTLY AS JOSEPHUS DECLARES IS THE TEACHING OF THE JEWS, " Josephus: "3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. THIS PLACE WE CALL THE BOSOM OF ABRAHAM.

Christ words in Luke 16:

( Compare with Christ own words, Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores....

All this does is prove my point, which is Jesus took a story that was not based on fact but based on legend and Jesus used that story to teach a lesson. But his lesson was that the condition of people in this life is not an indication of their condition in the afterlife. If you take the story literally, it contradicts what you believe: the man is carried by angels bodily into the bosom of Abraham, etc. Does this happen to all the righteous dead? Is Abraham's bosom where the dead are carried bodily, with eyes, etc.? Of course not. So you don't believe it is literal yourself.

As has been point out many times before, it is a parable, and as such you cannot use it to teach a literal truth about what happens when we die. It makes no sense when it is used to teach what happens when we die.

This parable must be the most important evidence you have or you would move on to something else. It is really a bad piece of evidence, Humble.

Scholars who know what they are talking about don't try to use it to teach the immortality of the soul or teach what happens when we die, because they realize that is a unjustifiable use of the parable.

Do you have any other Bible evidence to support your view that the soul is immortal?

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

.... I didn't mention the resurrection because that wasn't the discussion we were having. The resurrection was understood. what you miss is the historical context, the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL. THE PHARISEES DID BELIEVE IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY. CHRIST CONFIRMED THE BOTH THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY IN THE ENTIRE CONTEXT.

1) What is the purpose of the resurrection if the believers are already in heaven with God when they die?

The purpose of the resurrection is to unite the soul with the body in eternity. Because, as the soul and the body participate in righteous faith and righteous works, so both are rewarded together IN EVERLASTING LIFE. ALSO, likewise, as the soul and body participated in WICKED WORKS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, they will BE REWARDED TOGETHER WITH EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT.

2) It is not necessary to believe in the immortality of the soul in order to believe in the resurrection. In fact, quite the contrary. Why the resurrection if the soul is immortal? See Acts 17: 32. The Greek believed in the immortality of the soul. Why then did they laugh and mock Paul when he mentioned the resurrection?

It is "NECESSARY to believe in the immortality of the soul, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES. I explained why the immortality of the soul in my answer above in #1. Why did they mock? Because, there are mockers in every group as well as others who will say, "we will hear this man again" as Acts 17:32 says.

3) Also, if Paul and Jesus taught that we go to God immediately after death, why did Jesus talk only about His returning for his followers, as in John 14: 3? Why didn't he say, "I will see you when you die"? And why didn't Paul tell the Thessalonians that they need not worry about their loved ones who have died, because they are already in heaven with the Lord?

Answer: You should have read John 14:1-3, it answers your question. CHRIST SAID, he was leaving to GO AND PREPARE A PLACE FOR THEM, and that he would come and take them unto himself.

Quote:

HUMBLE-- We already KNOW Christ believed and TAUGHT the immortality of the soul from Luke 16:19-31.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you can't find "evidence" of Christ's teaching the immortality of the soul anywhere except in a parable and Matt. 22: 31, 31?

Answer: Well, I answer the SDA veil is still over your eyes. It's taught everywhere from John to Revelation. You just don't want to see it. Because, you would immediately have to change churches and all your friends would hate you and speak evil of you like they do the rest of Christianity.

I wish you would list all the texts that you believe teach the immortality of the soul. Why don't you do this? It makes it seem that all the evidence you have is in this parable and in a few other verses such as Matt. 22.

Answer: Why would I give a thousand dollars, when you can't handle and be trusted with two?

Where does the Bible say clearly and directly that the soul of man is alive and immortal and conscious after death?

Answer: Sir, if you can't an explicit text like Luke 16:19-31 and see that the soul of the righteous is comforted and the wicked is tormented immediately after death, you wouldn't believe "Moses and the Prophets", Christ and the Apostles or anyone else. Your mind is shut because you are willing to do any violence to the scripture to have your way with it.

When you come to the place where you are willing to surrender everything, your job, your family, your friends and your false teachings, then your eyes will be open when you seek the Lord. Right now, you are trapped by all of them, and you aren't willing to see because there is too much at stake on this earthly plane.

If Christ taught it, why didn't He use clear language like "the immortal soul," etc.?

Look, you mind is closed, shut and locked away for eternity. As I said above, If you can't read Luke 16:19-31 and find explicit language of the immortality of the soul, it is only because the gospel is hidden from your mind and you refuse to see it.

But what was the purpose of the parable in Luke 16: 19-31?

Answer: It was written for you Adventist, all the Armstrongites, JW's, and atheist, for the MURDER'S, ABORTIONIST, THE RAPIST, FOR IMMORAL, FOR THE WICKED, and FOR THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE POOR AND NEEDY, FOR THE MARTYR AND FOR ALL MANKIND. But at the moment IT WAS WRITTEN FOR YOU! IT'S YOUR CHANCE TO READ AND UNDERSTAND, JUST LIKE IT WAS FOR THE RICH MAN'S BROTHERS, who had Moses and the Prophets and WERE WARNED BY THEM OF "THIS PLACE OF TORMENT" AND BEING "TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME" AFTER A WICKED LIFE IN HADES!

To put it bluntly, it would have been better for some to have chosen a life as Lazarus the beggar, than to be where they are now. Truly, there are many that have died and now wish they could go back to WARN them save their brothers, from being "tormented in this flame" and from coming to "this place of torment" BUT THE ANSWER IS THE SAME, "THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, LET THEM HEAR THEM". Yes, the rich man wanted to WARN, his brothers of the torment in hades, but even Abraham said NO.

And you, you have Moses and the Prophets too to warn you, but when you read them, the veil is still over your eyes and you mock and scorn the story of the rich man. You reduce it to a fable, not a parable. You all do everything humanly possible to avoid both understanding it and believing it because it interferes with you set beliefs, and would make EG White a false prophet. For you, the cost is too great. You would much rather torture the explicit and plain scriptures, and ignore the explicitly clear truth taught in it. So, you get what you wish for.

Was it to teach what happens after death? No. Jesus is teaching that wealth and prosperity on earth is not an indication of whether a person is saved or not. Jesus was showing, also, that there is no second chance for salvation after death.

Yes, it was to teach what happens after death. What happens after death there is taught explicitly. If you can't read that Lazarus was saved and the rich man was not, what can I say except that both of my 3 year olds was able to read it and understand it. This is not intended to be an insult, it's a statement of fact. Stop any stranger on a street corner and without any preface, read the story and ask him/her to tell you what the moral of the story is!

Those are the lessons learned in the parable. You twist the Scriptures when you use the Bible in a way it was not meant to be used.

You don't have an ounce of proof for that statement. You simply want to ignore the impending torment and judgment of the wicked taught in story.

[John317]

Quote:

HUMBLE-- The purpose of the resurrection is to unite the soul with the body in eternity.

Post the verses that teach this clearly. What is your Bible evidence?

Quote:

Because' date=' as the soul and the body participate in righteous faith and righteous works, so both are rewarded together IN EVERLASTING LIFE.

Why is this necessary? If the believer is with God when he dies, why does he need to come down here and get his body? Why can't God give him a body while his spirit is in heaven? Why does his immortal soul need a body anyway?

Please show your answers from Scripture.

Quote:

ALSO, likewise, as the soul and body participated in WICKED WORKS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, they will BE REWARDED TOGETHER WITH EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT. [/quote']

Do you believe the body will be rewarded with everlasting punishment?

By the way, I do believe the wicked are punished with everlasting punishment. The Bible does teach that very clearly. The everlasting punishment, according to Romans 6: 23, is death-- eternal death.

[John317]

My friend Humble,

Could I help you to learn how to use the "Quotes", "Reply," and "Quick Quotes"? I am having a hard time sometimes separating your statements from those you are replying to.

There's an easier way to do it. Let me know what you think.

[rush4hire]

I have not read all the 200 posts on this subject. I see now, we're talking about Abraham's Bosom. But just in case the question still didn't find a good answer, or to back up that answer, if it had been given:

What is the consensus around here on what this means?

1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Thanks,

It seems obvious to me, that in Corinth, they decided to have a special ceremony where they got baptized for those who have passed away before the institution of Baptism was set up.

Did the Apostles make a big fuss over this? It seems not.

Did they endorse it? There is no evidence they did.

Should we do it? What would be the point? The institution of Baptism has been established for almost 2000 years now. Did you have relatives that lived back then, that you knew personally?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

3) Also, if Paul and Jesus taught that we go to God immediately after death, why did Jesus talk only about His returning for his followers, as in John 14: 3? Why didn't he say, "I will see you when you die"? And why didn't Paul tell the Thessalonians that they need not worry about their loved ones who have died, because they are already in heaven with the Lord?

Answer: You should have read John 14:1-3, it answers your question. CHRIST SAID, he was leaving to GO AND PREPARE A PLACE FOR THEM, and that he would come and take them unto himself.

I did read it. In fact, that is what I quoted. The question is why did Jesus say he would come for them if He knew they would come to Him when they died?

Don't you believe that the righteous dead went to Jesus? Where do you believe John and Peter and the other disciples are right now?

Why is Jesus coming for them when they are with Jesus now?

Is the place prepared for them? When do you believe Jesus will come and take them unto himself? And why come here when they are there already with Him?

[John317]

Quote:

Answer: Well, I answer the SDA veil is still over your eyes. It's taught everywhere from John to Revelation. [/quote']

Give me all the best and clearest verses that you know of between John to Revelation that teaches the immortality of the soul.

Give me a single verse that you feel clinches it. Do you have a single verse that refers to the soul as being immortal or not subject to death?

Anything that contradicts Ezekiel's "the soul that sins will die"?

[John317]

I have not read all the 200 posts on this subject. I see now, we're talking about Abraham's Bosom. But just in case the question still didn't find a good answer, or to back up that answer, if it had been given:

Originally Posted By: BibleShockers

What is the consensus around here on what this means?

1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Thanks,

It seems obvious to me, that in Corinth, they decided to have a special ceremony where they got baptized for those who have passed away before the institution of Baptism was set up.

Did the Apostles make a big fuss over this? It seems not.

Did they endorse it? There is no evidence they did.

Should we do it? What would be the point? The institution of Baptism has been established for almost 2000 years now. Did you have relatives that lived back then, that you knew personally?

It appears that you wrote this post for me, Rush. Not sure if you meant to.

In any case, BibleShockers is no longer with us for a while.

But there are other ways of understanding 1 Cor. 15: 29. Norman pointed out that it is very possible it is asking, if Jesus died and was not resurrected, why would anyone be baptized?

The Greek grammar also makes it possible to understand it as meaning, If the dead are not resurrected, why are people baptized for the sake of the dead; that is, in order to see their beloved dead again?

In any case, Paul does not say "why do we" do it, but he says, "why do they" do it? In fact, Paul may be referring to an heretical practice, since he does not seem to condone it but only mentions it as something that would not make sense if the dead were not resurrected.

[B Humble]

JOHN3:17--

Remember that the blessed hope of the believer is not death but the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection which will take place at that time. Titus 2: 13.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

JOHN2:17-- Was it to teach what happens after death? No. Jesus is teaching that wealth and prosperity on earth is not an indication of whether a person is saved or not. Jesus was showing, also, that there is no second chance for salvation after death.

No one denies that Lazarus was saved and the rich man was not. That is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is that the parable was intended to teach what happens after we die. Surely you can see the difference between those two things.

Show me that the parable was intended to teach what happens when people die. Show from the Bible.

To do that, you need to show Bible texts teaching that the soul is immortal and that the dead do know something and can communicate with each other.

What is your strongest and clearest text (s) showing that the soul is immortal? Is it Luke 16: 19-31? It seems to be because it is all you talk about. If not, go on to other, clearer verses. For instance, the dying thief? Do you believe that clinches the view that the soul is immortal?

JOHN3:17-- Those are the lessons learned in the parable. You twist the Scriptures when you use the Bible in a way it was not meant to be used.

Quote:

HUMBLE-- You don't have an ounce of proof for that statement. You simply want to ignore the impending torment and judgment of the wicked taught in story.

Show me from the text itself that the lesson Jesus meant to teach is that the soul is immortal and that that when we die we are carried bodily by an angel to the bosom of Abraham. Please show that this is the lesson Jesus Christ wished to teach to us. Analyze the text from the viewpoint that it is to be understood literally.

As far as the judgment of the wicked goes, I believe exactly what the Bible teaches in the following texts:

Ps. 37: 20--

But the wicked shall perish;

And the enemies of the LORD,

Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.

Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Isaiah 1: 28--

The destruction of transgressors and of sinners shall be together,

And those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed [Hebrew: Kalah, to be finished, to be at an end, to vanish, to cease; to be entirely consumed; Modern Language Bible: annihilated].

Of the destruction of the wicked--

Rev. 20:9-- They [ALL the wicked] went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Malachi 4: 1,3--

The Great Day of God

1 For behold, the day is coming,

Burning like an oven,

And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.

And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”

Says the LORD of hosts,

“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.

3 You shall trample the wicked,

For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

On the day that I do this,”

Says the LORD of hosts.

[John317]

1. "Destroy": For example, in the Old Testament, the word ahvad is the word which is usually translated as "destroy." In Num. 21:29, the people of Chemosh were "undone" ("destroyed" in NIV). In the context, the meaning of ahvad is that the people were conquered and sold into slavery. They were not annihilated but enslaved. In 1 Sa. 9:3, 20, Saul's asses were ahvad, i.e., lost. These asses were not annihilated, but lost. In Psalms 31:12, an ahvad vessel is merely broken, not annihilated. In Hab. 1:15, the word rar means to catch something in a net, not to annihilate it. Dah chah in Isa. 53:10 is translated, " It pleased the Lord to bruise him.". Here it refers to Christ's sufferings, not to nonexistence. In Hosea 4:6, God's people are "destroyed" for lack of knowledge. In the context, this cannot mean that they were nonexistent. The same can be pointed out in the case of hoom (Ps. 55:2) and ghah ram (Josh. 6:8; Mic. 4:13). In the Greek, apollumi is used to describe ruined wineskins, lost sheep, and spoiled food (Matt. 9:17; 15:24; John 6:27). Apolia in Mark 14:4 refers to wasted perfume. Diapthero refers to moth-eaten cloth in Luke 12:33 katheiresis to the pulling down of a fortress (2 Cor. 10:4) kataluo refers to lodging for the night (Luke 9:12) kataryco to a fig tree which "encumbered the ground" (Luke 13:7); luo refers to putting off one's shoes (Acts 7:33); portheo refers to persecuting the church in Gal. 1:13; phthiro refers to defiling the temple of God in 1 Cor. 3:17. The assumption that the words "destroy" and "destruction" automatically mean annihilation is not good English, much less good Hebrew or Greek. We can think of someone being "destroyed" or "wiped out" in an emotional sense without implying that the person has ceased to exist.

2. "Perish" or "perished." In various forms the word "perish" appears 152 times in the KJV. In the Old Testament, there are 11 Hebrew words which are translated as "perish." The main word ahvad is the same word which is frequently translated as "destroy." We have already seen that it is erroneous to assume that ahvad means annihilation. Sha mad is found in Jer. 48:42 where Moab is said to be destroyed in the sense of the people being enslaved, not annihilated. Shah rhath is used of ruined girdles and vessels in Jer. 13:7; 18:4; kah rath is used of cutting a covenant or cutting timber to build the temple in Gen. 15:18; 1 Kings 5:6; eah vag. nah phal, and var are used to describe a miserable emotional state (Ps. 42:7; 55:4, 88:15,16). In the New Testament, there are ten different Greek words which are translated "perish." Some of these words such as apollumi were also translated as destroy and do not mean annihilation. Apothneesko is used in John 12:24 to describe the grain of wheat which when planted "dies" and then sprouts. Obviously, it cannot mean annihilation. Aphanrzo refers to things which moths and rust can "corrupt" (Matt. 6:19,20). Kataphthiro is used to describe "corrupt" minds in 2 Tim. 3:8 (KJV). Even in English we speak of fruit as "perishable" in the sense that it can spoil. Burned out light bulbs have "perished." In neither case is annihilation intended.

3. "Consume" or "consumed.": Forms of these words appear in the KJV 162 times. In the Old Testament, 20 different Hebrew words are translated as "consume." The usual word, ah chal is also used in Ps. 78:45 where the psalmist says that the flies "devoured" or consumed the Egyptians. The psalmist surely means that the flies tormented them, not annihilated them. Jeremiah used another word, bah lah, in Lam. 3:4, saying that his flesh and skin were "made old," or consumed, i.e., he was consumed with grief, not annihilated. Kah lah is used in Ezek. 13:13 where hailstones "consumed" a wall, i.e., knocked it down, not annihilated it. Dah gach is the normal word for putting out a fire. When we "put out a candle," we do not annihilate the candle. Even in English we speak of people being consumed with "grief, greed or lust," yet we do not mean that the person has ceased to exist. We have demonstrated that the annihilationists are in error when they arbitrarily assume and then assert that such words as "perish" necessarily mean annihilation. Once this point is granted, one is no longer impressed by such works as Froom where hundreds of quotes from biblical and extra-biblical literature are given to prove conditionalism simply upon the erroneous assumption that the mere presence of such words in the text means that the authors believed in annihilationism.

Have you read any good books from the viewpoint of those who believe in the non-immortality of the soul. If so, could you name the book and give the name of the author?

Humble, it's obvious you're not the author of the above. Could you please show the source or give a link. On the Forum we give sources and documentation. Thanks.

By the way, you still are not using the "quick quote" correctly. I'd be glad to help with it. The way you are posting things make it difficult to reply to you and to separate the posts from your responses.

[John317]

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HUMBLE-- The resurrection is the great fulfillment of the end of time' date='

Why? Why is it the great fulfillment if all the saved go to be with God without it?

Do you, in fact, believe that the righteous dead go to be with God immediately after death?

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Answer: I've answered all these before. [/quote']

I don't recall that you have answered those questions directly. Could you kindly give a brief yes or no, and explain why it is the great fulfillment even if all the saved are with God anyway?

[John317]

[John317]

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HUMBLE-- Again, there is nothing in these verses that disprove the immortality of the soul And yes, if Christ was not raised, then everything else is false, you would might as well be an atheistic annihilationist.

But that is not true if people have immortal souls that survive the death of their bodies.

If people were made with immortal spirits or souls, they do not depend on Christ and the resurrection for their existence. Immortal means not subject to death, and therefore their immortal souls are not subject to death, which necessarily means that they continue to exist.

And if the righteous dead experience the presence of God immediately after death, they do not need the resurrection in order to know the joys of God's presence.

If they go immediately to be with Christ, the resurrection is not absolutely essential for them to have life.

Thus, if the soul is immortal and the souls of the righteous go to heaven after death, Paul could not possibly have said what he did in 1 Cor. 15: 18, for a soul that continues to exist beyond death would not be "utterly lost" apart from a resurrection. Yet Paul and all the rest of Holy Scripture teach that without Christ, there is no life but only death. Christ is absolutely our only hope of any life whatsoever. THERE IS ONLY LIFE IN UNION WITH JESUS CHRIST. HE WHO HAS CHRIST HAS LIFE; HE WHO DOES NOT HAVE CHRIST HAS NOT LIFE.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-- Job 14: 21, regarding the dead--

21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it;

They are brought low, and he does not perceive it.

HUMBLE-- Yes, before Christ's resurrection, those who have passed on did not know what is happening on earth. Nothing here disproves the immortality of the soul

What it does show is that Ecc. 9: 5 is right, that the dead do not know anything.

There is nothing here which says this has only to do with the way it was before the resurrection of Christ. The condition of man in death has not changed as a result of Christ death and resurrection. All it has done is make absolutely certain that His faithful followers will be raised from the grave. Christ's resurrection-- the gospel-- has made us realize the reality of the resurrection, but it has not caused death itself to be any different from the way it was before Christ.

Before Christ's resurrection, men did not have the certainty of the resurrection that we have today, because we have the benefit of seeing Christ raised from the dead, and we know that it is a guarantee that we will also be raised if we are faithful to Him and remain in union with Christ.

[John317]

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HUMBLE-- Again, these verses take nothing away from the imortality of the soul. Every place Sheol is used, it proves the immortality of the soul, not disproves it.

The above verse is one of those which prove that no person-- whether righteous or wicked-- can deliver his life from the power of sheol.

The LXX translates sheol here as Hades. It proves that all humans go to Hades, for Ps. 89: 48 is obviously talking about people per se and not merely the wicked.

According to Hebrew parallelism, the first stanza in this part of the poem carries the same meaning as the second stanza, and in this case, it shows that sheol is equivalent to death. This is supported by Hebrew-English lexicons.

Notice that there is nothing here that even hints that the soul is immortal or conscious in sheol.

[John317]

Quote:

HUMBLE QUOTING A BOOK WHICH DEFENDS THE CONCEPT OF THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL-- Answer: In various forms the word "perish" appears 152 times in the KJV. In the Old Testament, there are 11 Hebrew words which are translated as "perish." The main word ahvad is the same word which is frequently translated as "destroy." We have already seen that it is erroneous to assume that ahvad means annihilation. Sha mad is found in Jer. 48:42 where Moab is said to be destroyed in the sense of the people being enslaved, not annihilated. Shah rhath is used of ruined girdles and vessels in Jer. 13:7; 18:4; kah rath is used of cutting a covenant or cutting timber to build the temple in Gen. 15:18; 1 Kings 5:6; eah vag. nah phal, and var are used to describe a miserable emotional state (Ps. 42:7; 55:4, 88:15,16). In the New Testament, there are ten different Greek words which are translated "perish." Some of these words such as apollumi were also translated as destroy and do not mean annihilation. [/quote']

Would you please give the name of the book or the name of the author?

There are real problems with this writer's argument here.

In the first place, Ps. 37: 20 says that "the wicked," "like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away."

There is nothing in those lines which hints that the wicked continue to live or have existence following their destruction. They "vanish;" "into smoke they vanish away." There is nothing remaining after they are destroyed. So when you put the Hebrew word ahvad in close association with kalah-- which means to be at an end, to be entirely consumed-- then it is impossible to say that ahvad does not mean anything but annihilated. Kalah itself means to utterly vanish or cease. See how it is used of the destruction of the wicked at Is. 1: 28, which can only be understood to signify annihilation. That is how it is translated by the Modern Language Bible, or the New Berkeley Version.

Have you ever known something to vanish into smoke and yet continue to exist and to have consciousness?

In the second place, the only way that a human being can survive death and be conscious is if he has an immortal soul or spirit.

Therefore people who believe as I do in the non-immortality of the soul do not have to prove that humans are annihilated. It is necessary for those who believe humans continue to live and to be conscious after death to prove that destruction does not signify their annihilation. The only way a human could NOT be annihilated is if he has an immortal soul. But that is the very question before us: do humans have an immortal soul [nephish]? Do we have some indestructible part of us that goes on living after death?

Only once you prove or show that humans have an immortal soul can anyone see that destruction does not mean annihilation.

Therefore you need to show from Holy Scripture that the nephish is immortal, indestructible and conscious after death. Can you do it? Can you show from the Bible that our wise and loving Creator made untested humans indestructible and immortal?