B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble Explain why Bacchiocchi is referred to as a Neo-Sadduceeian. [/quote'] Quote: John, you are not reading my replies. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking me to do things, I've done already. The reason I ask is that I am looking for further clarification. Quote: Bacciocchi is a Neo-Sadducee because, he believes as a Neo-Sadducee. Adventist are Neo-Sadduceeian too. The Sadducees were annihilations of Christ's day, whom Jesus corrected them for their doctrine. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, in angels or spirits, the last judgment, life after death, divine providence, or a coming Messiah. The Sadducees attacked Jesus by attacking His belief in the resurrection. Bacchiocchi believes in all of these. So do all SDAs. Of course we do not believe in life immediately after death, but we do definitely believe as the Bible teaches on that subject-- which is that the dead rest in their graves until the resurrection. This is not what the Sadducees believed. Therefore it is untrue that SDAs are Neo-Sadduceeian. Quote: Josephus wrote about the Pharisees with whom, Christ confirms repeatedly their teaching about the immortality of the soul and the punishment of the wicked immediately after death and in the resurrection:... Josephus writes: " But the Sadducees are those that compose the second order, and take away fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades" (which were believed and taught by the Pharisees) Thus, it is correct to call Adventist Neo-Sadducees. Sir, that is why we call Same and you "NEO-Sadducee", not Sadducees. The canon for us as Christians is the Bible, not the beliefs of the Pharisees or the Sadducees. The Pharisees had a lot of false teachings so we shouldn't base our beliefs on what they thought. And Christ certainly did not agree with the Pharisees on many things, either. What we are discussing here is the Bible teaching, including those of Jesus, not the teachings of other groups who may or may not have been right. You set up a false dicotomy. If Christ agrees with the Pharisees and we agree with Christ on a doctrine, I can agree with both of them. It doesn't mean they can't have a disagreement elsewhere on a totally different issue. What is important to note is that Christ, the Apostles and the Pharisees ALL agree on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and eternal punishment. More importantly, it shows that the terms such as "eternal punishment" did NOT, by any means mean annihilation! It shows that in the common usage of the term in Christ day, IT WAS ONLY UNDERSTOOD TO MEAN UNCEASING AND UNENDING TORMENT OF THE WICKED, not some half baked idea whose origin is rooted and borrowed from atheistic godlessness to tickle the ear of the gross sinner and offer him "soul sleep" as a reward for murder, rape and abortion..etc. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 14. But then as to the two other orders at first mentioned, the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skillful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men, although fate does co-operate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, - but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment." This absolutely proves that the term "eternal punishment" meant eternal suffering and torment, not annihilation. And that Christ taught exactly as Josephus describes the Orthodox doctrine among the Jew concerning the immortality of the soul. Exactly as I have shown it in the comparison between Luke 16:19-31 and Josephus own words. Regarding the Sadducees, Josephus writes: " But the Sadducees are those that compose the second order, and take away fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades" (which were believed and taught by the Pharisees) Thus, it is correct to call Adventist Neo-Sadducees. All any of the above shows is that the Pharisees of Jesus time generally believed in the immortality of the soul. It doesn't show us what Jesus believed because he wasn't a Pharisee and he often had disagreements with them. Nor was he trained in their schools. It's a mistake, therefore, to quote Pharisees in order to try to learn what Jesus taught or believed. It must be remembered that the Pharisees and the Jews of the Machabean period came under the influence of the Greeks who believed in the immorality of the soul. 2 Machabees 12 describes prayers for the dead, something that nowhere found in Holy Scripture. It's obvious that prayers for the dead are foreign to the Bible, but because of the Greek influence about 175-136 BC, the Jews began to adopt some of their beliefs, and the immortality of the soul was one of them, unfortunately. As we study the Bible, I believe you will notice some major differences between those beliefs and the teachings of the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 ... That's what happens when you rely on Strong's for real Greek or Hebrew study. He is among the weakest of all. Along with that, you take a corrupted textual version of the bible like the KJV and you draw all the wrong conclusions... Why do you jump to those conclusions? I am not at all relying on Strong's. And I have and read over 60 translations of the Bible. This is what happens when you assume things. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble 14. But then as to the two other orders at first mentioned, the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skillful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men, although fate does co-operate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, - but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment." This absolutely proves that the term "eternal punishment" meant eternal suffering and torment, not annihilation. And that Christ taught exactly as Josephus describes the Orthodox doctrine among the Jew concerning the immortality of the soul. Exactly as I have shown it in the comparison between Luke 16:19-31 and Josephus own words. Regarding the Sadducees, Josephus writes: " But the Sadducees are those that compose the second order, and take away fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades" (which were believed and taught by the Pharisees) Thus, it is correct to call Adventist Neo-Sadducees. All any of the above shows is that the Pharisees of Jesus time generally believed in the immortality of the soul. It doesn't show us what Jesus believed because he wasn't a Pharisee and he often had disagreements with them. Nor was he trained in their schools. It's a mistake, therefore, to quote Pharisees in order to try to learn what Jesus taught or believed. It must be remembered that the Pharisees and the Jews of the Machabean period came under the influence of the Greeks who believed in the immorality of the soul. 2 Machabees 12 describes prayers for the dead, something that nowhere found in Holy Scripture. It's obvious that prayers for the dead are foreign to the Bible, but because of the Greek influence about 175-136 BC, the Jews began to adopt some of their beliefs, and the immortality of the soul was one of them, unfortunately. As we study the Bible, I believe you will notice some major differences between those beliefs and the teachings of the Bible. Sir, you are incorrect. It is a mistake NOT to learn the teachings of the time to arrive at the understanding of Christ words. why are you looking up GREEK words, if you don't want to learn the meaning of them! WHY ARE YOU LOOKING UP HEBREW WORDS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO LEARN WHAT THE MEANT IN CHRIST TIME? Goodness! What you are doing is looking for a way out to escape dealing with the truth! So, let me ask you, regarding prayers for the dead, would it make sense to you for anyone to offer sacrifice or an offering for the dead? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 If Christ agrees with the Pharisees and we agree with Christ on a doctrine, I can agree with both of them. It doesn't mean they can't have a disagreement elsewhere on a totally different issue. .... The point is that you are assuming that Jesus agreed with the Pharisees in regard to the immortality of the soul. That has yet to be proven. That is the very topic of our discussion: what does the Bible, including Christ, teach about the nature of man in death. It seems to you trying to take a short-cut by concluding that since the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul, Jesus also believed it. Right here, please post all of the verses that teach the immortality of the soul. If you like, start with all the verses in the Gospels that teach it. I don't want to have to read all the comments about the verses. Just post the verses themselves or where they are found in the Bible. Later I will post the verses that teach the non-immortality of the soul. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 JOHN3:17-- All any of the above shows is that the Pharisees of Jesus time generally believed in the immortality of the soul. It doesn't show us what Jesus believed because he wasn't a Pharisee and he often had disagreements with them. Nor was he trained in their schools. It's a mistake, therefore, to quote Pharisees in order to try to learn what Jesus taught or believed. It must be remembered that the Pharisees and the Jews of the Machabean period came under the influence of the Greeks who believed in the immorality of the soul. 2 Machabees 12 describes prayers for the dead, something that nowhere found in Holy Scripture. It's obvious that prayers for the dead are foreign to the Bible, but because of the Greek influence about 175-136 BC, the Jews began to adopt some of their beliefs, and the immortality of the soul was one of them, unfortunately. As we study the Bible, I believe you will notice some major differences between those beliefs and the teachings of the Bible. Quote: HUMBLE-- Sir, you are incorrect. It is a mistake NOT to learn the teachings of the time to arrive at the understanding of Christ words. why are you looking up GREEK words, if you don't want to learn the meaning of them! WHY ARE YOU LOOKING UP HEBREW WORDS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO LEARN WHAT THE MEANT IN CHRIST TIME? Learning Greek and Hebrew is not studying the beliefs of the Pharisees in order to know what Christ believed. When you study Greek and Hebrew, you are not studying the beliefs of either the Pharasees and Sadducees; you are studying the Bible itself. It is a mistake to study the Pharisees in order to know what Jesus taught since they obviously did not agree on many things. That is my point. My point is not that you never want to study what those groups believed. It is simply that you need to be aware that you can't study them in order to know what Jesus taught. You can find out a lot of things that were going on, and you can gain insights into some teachings and practices in the Gospels. But to know what Christ taught, you have to get it from Christ, not from his enemies. Quote: HUMBLE-- Goodness! What you are doing is looking for a way out to escape dealing with the truth! Unhelpful opinion based on assumptions. Would it help the exchange if I made similar remarks and assumptions? That is why I have nothing to do with them. Quote: HUMBLE-- So, let me ask you, regarding prayers for the dead, would it make sense to you for anyone to offer sacrifice or an offering for the dead? No, it wouldn't. However, Mormons do similar things for the dead and so do Catholics. As you probably know, most Catholic also pray to the dead, i.e., the dead "saints," etc. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that a person's probation is closed once they die, and that there is no second chance of salvation after an individual dies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble If Christ agrees with the Pharisees and we agree with Christ on a doctrine, I can agree with both of them. It doesn't mean they can't have a disagreement elsewhere on a totally different issue. .... The point is that you are assuming that Jesus agreed with the Pharisees in regard to the immortality of the soul. That has yet to be proven. That is the very topic of our discussion: what does the Bible, including Christ, teach about the nature of man in death. It seems to you trying to take a short-cut by concluding that since the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul, Jesus also believed it. Answer: Let me see, Christ uses Hades exactly as the Pharisees understood it. Then he teaches that the rich man was in Hades in torment, exactly as the Pharisees believed about the wicked. Then, we have Josephus confirming the use of Hades exactly as Christ demonstrates it. Then we have Eternal punishment used exactly as both the Pharisees and Josephus uses it. BUT WE CAN'T FIND A SINGLE PLACE WHERE ANY JEW OR ANY OTHER PERSON USED THE TERMS TO MEAN SOUL SLEEP AND ANNIHILATION. BUT WERE SUPPOSED TO FORGET ALL THAT AND BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT USED OR TAUGHT ANYWHERE IN HISTORY OF CHRIST, THE APOSTLES AND THE JEWS! Right here, please post all of the verses that teach the immortality of the soul. If you like, start with all the verses in the Gospels that teach it. You can't even deal with one, much less all of them. By the time you get half way through with Mt.10:28 you agree with me that the soul LIVES ON and cannot be killed when someone kills you. Christ explicitly taught that the rich man was sent to Hades where he was in suffer. WHILE HIS BROTHERS WERE STILL LIVING, the rich man was "in this flame", "in TORMENT" I don't care if you call a parable OR A STORY whatever, IT'S EXACTLY AND EMPHATICALLY A PART OF THE BELIEF OF CHRIST. You can't even deal with 1 scripture much less scores of them. Let's see if you can deal with this one: Acts 2:25-26. I don't want to have to read all the comments about the verses. Just post the verses themselves or where they are found in the Bible. Answer: Good idea, let's not make any comments and just post scriptures back and forth! DUH! Later I will post the verses that teach the non-immortality of the soul. b]Okay, I don't want to have to read your comments either, just post your scriptures without comment. Quote
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Quote: HUMBLE-- So, let me ask you, regarding prayers for the dead, would it make sense to you for anyone to offer sacrifice or an offering for the dead? No, it wouldn't. However, Mormons do similar things for the dead and so do Catholics. As you probably know, most Catholic also pray to the dead, i.e., the dead "saints," etc. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote: HUMBLE-- So, let me ask you, regarding prayers for the dead, would it make sense to you for anyone to offer sacrifice or an offering for the dead? No, it wouldn't. However, Mormons do similar things for the dead and so do Catholics. As you probably know, most Catholic also pray to the dead, i.e., the dead "saints," etc. Quote: HUMBLE-- You will have to update Christ on that your opinion. HE OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE FOR THE DEAD! His sacrifice was made for all people, the dead and the living and those not yet born. This is true. However, whether a person is saved is based on their faith and on their relationship with God before they died, not on what happens after they die. What Jesus did on the cross is far different from people praying for the dead or offering sacrifices for the dead. Once a person is dead, they can't put their faith in Christ and be saved AFTER they are dead. A dead person can't put their faith in Christ and be saved. That decision has to be made while a person is alive. The whole purpose of the prayers for the dead (and to the dead) is in order for a change to take place in the salvation of the dead. For instance, if a person is in purgatory, prayers and offerings are thought to get them released so that they can go to heaven. Prayers for the dead are believed to loose them from their sins. But in order for the dead to be loosed from their sins, the dead would need to have had faith in Christ before they died. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote: HUMBLE-- So, let me ask you, regarding prayers for the dead, would it make sense to you for anyone to offer sacrifice or an offering for the dead? No, it wouldn't. However, Mormons do similar things for the dead and so do Catholics. As you probably know, most Catholic also pray to the dead, i.e., the dead "saints," etc. Quote: HUMBLE-- You will have to update Christ on that your opinion. HE OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE FOR THE DEAD! Do you pray for the dead and offer sacrifices for them? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Let's see if you can deal with this one: Acts 2:25-26. Acts 2:25-26 (English Standard Version) 25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. Was there something in particular in these verses that you wanted to draw my attention to? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble Quote: HUMBLE-- So, let me ask you, regarding prayers for the dead, would it make sense to you for anyone to offer sacrifice or an offering for the dead? No, it wouldn't. However, Mormons do similar things for the dead and so do Catholics. As you probably know, most Catholic also pray to the dead, i.e., the dead "saints," etc. Quote: HUMBLE-- You will have to update Christ on that your opinion. HE OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE FOR THE DEAD! Do you pray for the dead and offer sacrifices for them? Do you think Christ was wrong in sacrificing for the Dead? Do you think Christ was wrong in offering himself for the dead? What do you think? Should a Christian follow Christ's example? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote: HUMBLE-- Answer: Good idea' date=' let's not make any comments and just post scriptures back and forth! DUH! Quote: JOHN3:17-- Later I will post the verses that teach the non-immortality of the soul. Quote: HUMBLE-- Okay, I don't want to have to read your comments either, just post your scriptures without comment. [/quote'] You misunderstand me. My fault. I am simply asking that you post the verses on the topic. I am not saying you shouldn't make comments about them on a separate post. I just want to see the verses in the Bible which you believe are the best evidence for your point of view. Pretend that I am someone you are giving Bible studies to and you want to present to me what the Bible teaches on this subject. What are the verses you would show me? You might pick out between 15 to 20 of what you consider the key verses. I will study them, then get back with you about them. I will post about 20 of the verses that I believe represent the Bible view of death, etc. Sound fair? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble Let's see if you can deal with this one: Acts 2:25-26. Acts 2:25-26 (English Standard Version) 25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. Was there something in particular in these verses that you wanted to draw my attention to? My apologies, I should have added verse 27: Acts 2:25 For David says concerning him, 'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; moreover my flesh will dwell in hope. 27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble First, you asked me why Morey called Sam a Neo-Sadducee. I only answered you WHY and said it's appropiate. I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve. That kind of thing doesn't bother me. Secondly, I didn't call him anything. I just explained why he was called that because you asked me. Lastly, I didn't think that kind of naming is not intended to be insulting, it's intended to be a term to describe the closeness of their system of beliefs. Quote
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I'm curious, as I watch Obama say he has a "righteous wind at his back" , when you all hear about abortion of an embryos, you think their just putting the embryo to sleep, like a dog or any other animal? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 3, 2008 Moderators Posted November 3, 2008 Do you pray for the dead and offer sacrifices for them? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Do you pray for the dead and offer sacrifices for them? If Christ died for us while we were yet dead in our sins, do think it is sinful to pray for others that are dead in their sins? Quote
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