Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Sulla]

Ok a question for those of you who believe in Ellen White. Taking all she said against drama and fiction is there any reason to watch fiction on TV or Movies? Now I am not really asking those that pick and choose from what she said unless you just want to share a quote. Because even if there are 30 making it more clear you will say she was just wrong on those 30 you dont agree with So those that agree Ellen White was consistant and true in here views. What am a missing that makes this ok?

Also any examples in the Bible are fine. I just dont recall any use being made of the popular theatric arts of the time in the Bible either.

So here we go. Did Adventists and other christians have it right in the past in relation to drama and fiction? Or were they all wrong and the church if finaly getting it right now. And please back up your ideas:) Oh and be friendly when talking this over.

Also here is this for a quick reference. I do not endorse the rest of the site or not endorse it for that matter. But I present this study just a quick way to find relavent quotes etc. http://www.temcat.com/Drama/drama_in_sda.htm

[Sulla]

Satan knows that to a great degree the mind is affected by that upon which it feeds. He is seeking to lead both the youth and those of mature age to read [view] story-books, tales, and other literature [movies, movies, movies]. The readers [viewers] of such literature [drama] become unfitted for the duties lying before them. They live an unreal life, and have no desire to search the Scriptures, to feed upon the heavenly manna. The mind that needs strengthening is enfeebled, and loses its power to study the great truths that relate to the mission and work of Christ, —truths that would fortify the mind, awaken the imagination, and kindle a strong, earnest desire to overcome as Christ overcame.

Could a large share of the books [drama] published [produced] be consumed, a plague would be stayed that is doing a fearful work upon mind and heart. Love stories, frivolous and exciting tales [movies, movies], and even that class of books [movies] called religious novels [movies], —books [movies] in which the author [producer] attaches to his story a moral lesson, —are a curse to the readers [movie viewers]. Religious sentiments may be woven all through a storybook , but, in most cases, Satan is but clothed in angel‑robes, the more effectively to deceive and allure. None are so confirmed in right principles, none so secure from temptation, that they are safe in reading [viewing] these stories [movies].

(Emphasis supplied by the temcat site I am just to lazy to remove it all. )

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We can never save our youth and children by arranging programs in our institutions or churches which make constant appeal to their love of entertainment. Indeed, where this appeal is continually made to their natures, they will lose interest in the solemn, sober realties of Christian service. They will tire of the meeting for prayer, of the preaching of the gospel, of the study of the Sabbath school lesson.

[Sulla]

If you read the below its interesting how far we have come since the 30s. The church now makes dramas like Christmas at Cadillac Jack’s etc. So change for the better or for the worse?

The General Conference Committee of March 10, 1937, approved the visual education committee’s findings and they were published in The General Conference Bulletin on Movies. See Appendix 19 for the complete adoption report. Following are the recommendations for acceptable and unacceptable films:

1. Acceptable Films

a. Industrial Pictures.—Pictures showing processes of manufacture, lumbering, mining. oil production, public utilities. transportation, commerce, transmission of news and information, etc.

b. Scenic.—Pictures of national or other parks, natural scenery, mountain climbing, exploration, and the like.

c. Travelogues.—Pictures of other countries, their national habits, customs, and life (excluding scenes that may have a corrupting influence).

d. Nature and Wild Life.—Pictures of the Forest Service, and animal life in various States and nations. The life development of insects, plants, fishes, birds, and animals (excluding those which emphasize cruelty).

e. Art and Archeology.—(Excluding films that portray indecent and corrupt art.)

f. Newsreels and Current History.—(Excluding films which are contrary to our recognized standards.)

g. Educational Films.—Films which impart information and teach truth in any branch of learning.

h. Pictures of Places.—Those associated with historical incidents.

i. Our denominational work and activities.

2. Unacceptable Films

a. Films portraying Christ and inspired men.

b. Pictures portraying romantic love‑making.

c. Films portraying scenes which are contrary to Seventh-day Adventist standards and ideals, such as popularized dancing, card playing, gambling, drinking, etc.

d. Films portraying crime or glorifying criminals.

e. Films portraying scenes of violence or cruelty, such as prize fighting.

f. Films which lower esteem for the sanctity of marriage by portraying family disruptions, or ridiculing home life and home relationships.

g. Films portraying scenes of night life, drinking, carousing, gaiety, revelry, rowdiness.

h. Films portraying scenes of smoking as a social activity. (Pictures portraying processes of manufacture, for example, in which the operator might happen to be smoking, might not be included in this category because the attention of the observer is centered upon the process rather than upon the smoking as a desirable activity.)

i. Films which by ridicule, suggestive insinuation, or crude comedy, lower in the estimation of the observer, religion or the ministry, or the dignity of human personality, or law‑enforcing agencies.

j. Films of a scientific or historical character which blend misrepresentation of facts with the actual.

k. Popularized historical films which distort facts of history and pervert truth, or which present scenes of cruelty and bloodshed. —Review, April 18, 1940.

[Neil D]

And the question is ......what?

[Sulla]

Its in the very first line.

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Ok a question for those of you who believe in Ellen White. Taking all she said against drama and fiction is there any reason to watch fiction on TV or Movies?

[Sulla]

CoAspen would it not be more polite not to post if you didnt care?

[Woody]

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The General Conference Committee of March 10, 1937

Huh?

And what standing does The General Conference Committee of March 10, 1937 have to do with me personally?

[Sulla]

I was illustrating how the practices of the adventist church have changed. And thats what I stated in the first paragraph.

Quote:

If you read the below its interesting how far we have come since the 30s. The church now makes dramas like Christmas at Cadillac Jack’s etc. So change for the better or for the worse?

[Woody]

My point is that we get our beliefs ... not from some committee in 1937 but from the Bible. The committee has no bearing on what this church does now. They had no bearing on what the church did then either. Perhaps it was not reflective of the church's beliefs then. Who knows. It was just some small group of people who happened to sit down together.

Do you have any idea how many people were in this committee? OR ... was there anyone else in the church that agreed with them?

[Bravus]

You've basically set the discussion up so that no-one likely to disagree with your position is welcome to post. Probably won't get much of a discussion going.

[Sulla]

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My point is that we get our beliefs ... not from some committee in 1937 but from the Bible.

I never said other wise. Or even suggested otherwise.

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The committee has no bearing on what this church does now. They had no bearing on what the church did then either. Perhaps it was not reflective of the church's beliefs then. Who knows. It was just some small group of people who happened to sit down together.

There is NO question that was the common belief in the church. The link I posted documents this pretty well. And I know lots of older Adventist that comfirm this.

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Do you have any idea how many people were in this committee? OR ... was there anyone else in the church that agreed with them?

Honestly Redwood I thought any Adventist would already know what the churches view was on these things. I thought it was common knowledge that this was the belief of most of the church. And that slowly over time drama, fiction, tv, movies etc came into the church. So I thought it was just a simple example to an informed readership. Not a proof of anything.

[Sulla]

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You've basically set the discussion up so that no-one likely to disagree with your position is welcome to post. Probably won't get much of a discussion going.

No the reason I mentioned people that dont pic and choose is this. I am discussing mainly Ellen Whites views on this. And the common understanding of the Adventists church. I am interested in their views. People that believe all of what Ellen White said is true but still say its ok to have drama in the church and watch it on tv.

Now if you like we can also talk about any use of drama and theater in the Bible. That would be much more productive for you, redwood and I since we will have a common ground to work from.

[Woody]

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You've basically set the discussion up so that no-one likely to disagree with your position is welcome to post. Probably won't get much of a discussion going.

No the reason I mentioned people that dont pic and choose is this. I am discussing mainly Ellen Whites views on this. And the common understanding of the Adventists church. I am interested in their views. People that believe all of what Ellen White said is true but still say its ok to have drama in the church and watch it on tv.

Now if you like we can also talk about any use of drama and theater in the Bible. That would be much more productive for you, redwood and I since we will have a common ground to work from.

What I don't understand is that you have mentioned that you are discussing what the understanding was of Ellen White and the church ... but you have not really offered any proof of either except from some committee report of which we don't know how many actually agreed with.

You have stated that this is just common knowledge and that I should know ... but I don't. Can you provide some other documentation? For one thing ... they did not even have movies in the time of Ellen White. Yes. Times are much different.

BTW ... I did check your link. I did not see any quotes to address this issue. But then of course I could have spent hours there but feel that since this is your statement ... that you should be the one to spend the time and report back to us.

[Bravus]

If the question is, 'does EGW condemn fiction?', then the answer is pretty clear and uncontroversial. So if she's infallible, don't do fiction.

[Sulla]

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hat I don't understand is that you have mentioned that you are discussing what the understanding was of Ellen White and the church ... but you have not really offered any proof of either except from some committee report of which we don't know how many actually agreed with.

Go back and look at the secound post the one before the commitee post. Its 2 quotes by Ellen White.

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You have stated that this is just common knowledge and that I should know ... but I don't. Can you provide some other documentation? For one thing ... they did not even have movies in the time of Ellen White. Yes. Times are much different.

Well the first post includes an entire timeline of quotes from Ellen White and from the church. I can copy over large parts of it I just do not have time at the moment.

Also movies were common in Ellen Whites time she did not die till 1915. They were invented in about the 1870s. She got to watch them go from a novelty to main stream. Some of the greatest silent films were made while she was still alive.

For example widely aclaimed Cabiria (1914)

But really thats beside the point as movies are just theater that is filmed. Its been around since well before the time of Christ.

[Sulla]

Quote:

If the question is, 'does EGW condemn fiction?', then the answer is pretty clear and uncontroversial. So if she's infallible, don't do fiction.

One of my points. So why is the Adventist church making movies?

Also just from a directly Biblical argument. Theater and drama was common for a large part of the history of the Bible. But was never used except by pagans. So why is it ok today?

[Doug]

Depends on what kind of fiction you are reading or watching. I think anyone who over thinks about what they watch or listen to needs help/

[Sulla]

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Depends on what kind of fiction you are reading or watching. I think anyone who over thinks about what they watch or listen to needs help/

Well I cant really go by Doug. I have to go by the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. And I think its clear neither one endorses it. But if I am wrong I would be glad to see the tests and facts.

[Sulla]

Since I have mentioned the Bible and Ellen White let me show even more. Early church fathers. Just incase you think the Bible just overlooked it.

"The utter ribaldry in pretentious tones and they act out indecent movements. Your daughters and your sons watch them giving lessons in adultery on the stage." Tatian (vol. 2, p 75)

"Neither can we watch the other spectacles [i.e., the theaters], lest our eyes and ears be defiled by participating in the utterances that are sung there. . . . And as for adultery, both in the case of men and of gods, whom they celebrate in elegant language for honors and prizes, this is made the subject of their dramas." - Theophilus (vol. 2, p. 115)

"What base action is there that is not exhibited in the theaters?" - Clement of Alexandria (vol. 2, p. 290)

"We renounce all your spectacles. . . . Among us nothing is ever said, seen, or heard that is anything in common with the madness of the circus, the immodesty of theater, the atrocities of the arena, or the useless exercise of the wrestling ground. Why do you take offense at us because we differ from you in regard to your pleasures?" - Tertullian (vol. 3, p. 46)

"We are evaluated by our character and modesty. Therefore, for good reason, we abstain from evil pleasures, and from your pomps and exhibitions. We know the origin in connection with religious things, and we condemn their mischievous enticements. . . . In the drama games, the madness is not less. Rather, the debauchery is more prolonged. For now a mime either expounds or acts out adulteries. . . . The same actor provokes your tears with pretended sufferings, with vain gestures and expressions." - Mark Minucius Felix (vol. 4, p. 196).

"Men who claim for themselves the authority of the Christian name are not ashamed . . . to find a defense in the heavenly Scriptures for the vain superstitions associated with the public exhibitions of the pagans. . . . They say, 'Where are there such Scriptures? Where are these things prohibited? On the contrary both Elijah was a charioteer of Israel and David himself danced before the ark. We read of the psalteries, horns trumpets, drums, pipes, harps, and choral dances. . . . Why, then, may not a faithful Christian man gaze upon that which the divine pen might write about? . . . However, the fact that Elijah was the charioteer of Israel is no defense for gazing upon the public games. For he did not run his race in a circus. And the fact that David led the dances in the presence of God is no sanction for the faithful Christians to occupy seats in the public theater. For David did not twist his limbs about in obscene movements." - Novatian (vol. 5, pp. 575-576).

"Now I will pass from this to the shameless corruption of the stage. I am ashamed to talk about the things that are said there. In fact, I am even ashamed to denounce the things that are done–the tricks of arguments, the cheating of adulterers, the immodesty of women, the indecent jokes. . . . People flock there to the public disgrace of the brothel, for the teaching of obscenity." - Novatian (vol. 5, p. 577).

"Things that have now ceased to be actual deeds of vice become examples. . . . Adultery is learned while it is seen. . . . The matron who has perhaps gone to the spectacle as a modest woman, returns from it immodest. What a degradation of morals it is! What a stimulus to abominable deeds, what food for vice!" - Cyprian (vol. 5. p. 277).

"And I am inclined to think that the corrupting influence of the stage is still more contaminating. For the subject of comedies are the dishonouring of virgins, or the loves of harlots; and the more eloquent they are who have composed the accounts of these disgraceful actions, the more do they persuade by the elegance of their sentiments; and harmonious and polished verses more readily remain fixed in the memory of the hearers. In like manner, the stories of the tragedians place before the eyes the parricides and incests of wicked kings, and represent tragic crimes. And what other effect do the immodest gestures of the players produce, but both teach and excite lusts? whose enervated bodies, rendered effeminate after the gait and dress of women, imitate unchaste women by their disgraceful gestures. Why should I speak of the actors of mimes, who hold forth instruction in corrupting influences, who teach adulteries while they feign them, and by pretended actions train to those which are true? What can young men or virgins do, when they see that these things are practised without shame, and willingly beheld by all?" - Lactantius (vol. 7, p. 187)

[Doug]

I never thought of Ellen White as infallible.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I never thought of Ellen White as infallible.

Never said you did. I said the Bible and spirit of prophecy is what I went by.

Now lets put Ellen White aside. You can throw out all the many things she says about drama and fiction. Now show me where in the long time scale covered by the Bible it shows them using theater. Or show me where the early church condoned it. History shows it crept in with the other errors after the apostles.

[Doug]

Just making a general statement. I am sorry I am still confused on what you are asking. It seems you are asking questions on both sides at the same time then trying to get a discussion for both?

[Sulla]

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Just making a general statement. I am sorry I am still confused on what you are asking. It seems you are asking questions on both sides at the same time.

I am asking for the evidence that its ok. Either from the Bible or spirit of prophecy.

[Sulla]

As a side note you know until recently Adventist students could be expelled from college for going to the movies.

[Doug]

I don't know where in the Bible that drama was even mentioned or condemned, everything seems to be based on real life events.

The Spirit of Prophesy was written by a human, which are fallible. Ellen White wrote that tea was bad for you, which we know now is not true.