Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Woody]

I agree with you Shane. I think that a little tolerance on both sides would be good.

[Sulla]

Quote:

You didn't really engage with the logic of my point at all. Let me try to simplify it even further:

* The Bible condemns many bad things

* (As you noted) drama existed in Bible times

* The Bible does not condemn drama

In the absence of further evidence, the conclusion would be that the Bible writers did not see drama as something bad that required condemnation.

Not, as you seem to be claiming, that they did see it as bad but were unaccountably silent on the topic.

The question of judging drama on its content is precisely the question you've been trying to avoid all along - the drama produced by the church has good content, but you want to condemn it simply because it's drama.

No I understand your logic I just think its faulty. If you read about the history of theater in the Bible world it all evolved from Pagan practices. And would have been condemned just in mentioning condemning pagan practices. On the other hand over the long period of time in the Bible we are told about evangalism in many other ways. For example, preaching, miracles, parables etc. But never any street performances or people acting. Not one time in this vast period.

So I stay still with the evidence of early christians, the Bible and spirit of prophecy there is not much of a case to be made that its ok.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I've noticed a lot of confusion from you ... but I never said that Theaters had not been invented ... because as I have stated ... Ellen White attended them.

Could be this are you talking about movie theaters or plays? Because some one said movies were not invented yet and I thought it was you.

[Sulla]

Quote:

All I can go by is that Ellen White said she went the Theater. What that meant at her time ... I have no idea. But I do know that they did not have 'movies' in her time.

I know John and I both asked for the quotes or info about her and theater attendance. I still have not seen it. So I cant comment on it until I do.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Apparently there was nothing wrong with the building itself ... just the content of what was witnessed.

No one ever said it was wrong to use a theater for meetings.

And sorry I did not the quote till after posting the other one. :)

[fccool]

Quote:

No I understand your logic I just think its faulty. If you read about the history of theater in the Bible world it all evolved from Pagan practices. And would have been condemned just in mentioning condemning pagan practices. On the other hand over the long period of time in the Bible we are told about evangalism in many other ways. For example, preaching, miracles, parables etc. But never any street performances or people acting. Not one time in this vast period.

So I stay still with the evidence of early christians, the Bible and spirit of prophecy there is not much of a case to be made that its ok.

The Bible leaves much of the cultural information out. It says nothing about computers and Internet, it sais nothing about humans flying now. It is not designed to be encyclopedia of "dos and don'ts". God respects our choices, and everything that He had originally created was good and for our benefit. We took those good things and misused them.

I think from the point #1 you make an assumption that theater is wrong because E.G.White stated that it is. A couple of thoughts though:

1) E.G. White stated that bicycles are a work of the devil and that masturbation causes diseases and blindness... and she was not speaking about spiritual side either... literal disease and blindness.

She was not alway 100% right, and many times she was speaking based on the cultural knowledge and stigmata of the age. She said that people should stay away from the cities to raise the family. A good guideline that most of the people on this forum do not follow. Let's not turn her into our pope! I see some people quote her more than they quote Bible.

With the above being said, you make it sound like human creativity and expression is something that we should not be aspiring to. Is it wrong to paint a picture? Theater is only expression of human imagination in our minds. You have dreams, don't you? Are they all absolutely true and accurate? Do you share your dreams with other people? Obviously there are boundaries for any Christian as far as the purpose of the expression... BUT!

Some people make God sound like a great megalomaniac up there. He does not want you to talk about Him 24/7, that's not love... that's obsessive infatuation. Fanaticism. Ask any sports stars if they like obsessive fans, and they will tell them these people are irrational. Yet, I see many Christians think that this is what Christian should be like... only talking about God, only watching Christian movies, only reading Christian literature. And by "Christian" they label it... "Contains language that mentions God as often as possible".

God wants us to enjoy the creative aspects of the human mind. We gain knowledge through stories that other people tell us. The moment a story is told... your imagination kicks in and you will experience theater of the mind whether you like it or not.

So, please... let us separate guns from killers, and stop this canonization of cultural preferences. If it's not mentioned in the Bible as explicitly wrong... it's a cultural preference.

[Neil D]

First the one is what should we view generally. And the Bible says what is pure and holy. The same understanding as the early church fathers. This alone would make watching most TV or movies not a good thing to do. Think about it most TVs and plays have, murder, cheating, sex outside of marriage and much much worse. And even the "good" drama always has some bad people. Because without some kind of danger or problem you cant make something dramatic.

[Sulla]

Well like I said I think this subject has run its course.

[Tom Wetmore]

...and that, long before you ever brought it up...

[Neil D]

...and that, long before you ever brought it up...

:smile:

[Dr. Shane]

I think this is a subject the church needs to discuss more frequently. The devil uses the entertainment industry to capture many many souls.

[Dr. Shane]

Yes, the devil uses everything but not everything is equally effective. Music and movies are like nuclear bombs in the devil's arsenal to win hearts and souls. Few other tools are as effective for leading men and women down the path of misery and death.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, the devil uses everything but not everything is equally effective. Music and movies are like nuclear bombs in the devil's arsenal to win hearts and souls. Few other tools are as effective for leading men and women down the path of misery and death.

And why should the devil have all the good music... and movies. If these mediums to get a message to sink in real deep are nuclear, then let's reclaim them for God's arsenal to win hearts and souls! And that begs the answer to the question that started this whole thread...

Tom

[Taylor]

Amen that is true that the devil has really worked havoc in influencing people with movies and music but we should definately have good ones there to influence people for the Lord. Amen!

[Dr. Shane]

I am all for the church becoming relevant to society. "Becoming relevant" is like a catch phrase for using popular music and drama in a Christian format. I think the leadership of the church is on board but many of the older generation and the baby boomers are resistant to it. Most of my generation, (Generation X) understands the winning the souls of our generation and that of Generation Y means becoming relevant.

However that does not mean that we compromise with sin. Watching most R-rated movies is sin - in the theater or at home. Many PG and PG-13 movies have objectionable scenes and plots that make them sinful. Some G-rated movies are sinful. A lot of secular music has sinful lyrics that we should not be listening to. We cannot mix the pure with the perverted and think it is OK.

[Taylor]

True enough Shane. That is why we must create things of a completely new order but use technology for God.

[Kevin H]

Mrs. White's comments about fiction and the novel and libaries was not in a vacuum. She was one of many literary voices speaking out in similar ways against them.

The issue is when you look at some of the people involved with this movement and critizism Mrs. White is joined by Nathanel Hawthorn and Herman Melvil. Looking at the careers of these critics of fiction and the novel maybe we need to find out what Mrs. White, Hawthorn and Melvil had in mind when they criticized fiction and the novel. How did they define fiction and the novel?

Sadly looking at Mrs. White out of her historic context we find ourselves shunning what she would have found acceptable and embrasing what she and the others were warning us about.

One example of this; our spring week of prayer speaker once when I was in Academy (1974-77) was a literary professor at AUC. He told about a study where two stories would be read to a congragation at church followed by a discussion on these two readings. In church after church one story was consistantly loved and praised, the other was soundly condemmed with many members brining up Mrs. White quotes to tell why that story was wrong and many were upset that the one story was read on Sabbath. They felt that it was breaking the sabbath to read that story on the sabbath.

Well, of the two stories, the one that was loved was a specific story that Mrs. White condemmed and the one that was hated came from her collection of stories "Sabbath Readings for the Home Circle."

[Woody]

Yes. EGW was just human. She made mistakes. This is why we need to compare all that she says to scripture. In with the good ... out with the bad.

[Dr. Shane]

who is defining sin?

I let the Bible do that and with that as my standard I have no problem saying, Watching most R-rated movies is sin - in the theater or at home. Many PG and PG-13 movies have objectionable scenes and plots that make them sinful. Some G-rated movies are sinful. A lot of secular music has sinful lyrics that we should not be listening to. We cannot mix the pure with the perverted and think it is OK.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

who is defining sin?

I let the Bible do that and with that as my standard I have no problem saying, Watching most R-rated movies is sin - in the theater or at home. Many PG and PG-13 movies have objectionable scenes and plots that make them sinful. Some G-rated movies are sinful. A lot of secular music has sinful lyrics that we should not be listening to. We cannot mix the pure with the perverted and think it is OK.

Agreed.

[Dr. Shane]

If we are walking in a saving relationship with Christ we are going to want to know how to please Him. That means identifying what sin is. Moreover, sin does spiritual harm to our relationship with Christ so if we want to prevent harm to our relationship we will want to know what sin is.