Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Sulla]

Quote:

All I can say is that times change and thus the instructions of a Christian. If you even briefly read Ellen White you can see the results of culture. God has given us a brain and priciples to live by. All one has to do is to look at the subject of Sabbath. God does not want legalist rules like the Jews had. He wants us to use our brains and our individual experiences.

The Jews used their brains to make up all the legalistic rules on their own. The Bible says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We have to be careful not to rationalize things we want. Thats why its really important to look at all the evidence.

Quote:

Personally ... I've been to a movie theater only once in my life. It was in a foreign country where SDA culture accepted it more at the time. But, I don't see anything wrong with going. I was just brought up in the early SDA culture where it was frowned upon so I didn't make a habit of going. I am too much of a goodie goodie.

In the time of Ellen White ... I have to say that perhaps it was not a good place for Christians. But I think it is now even though I don't go.

Well ... I don't know if I have answered any of your questions. But these are just my thoughts. But I also wanted to say I appreciate Shanes comments. He made it clear that fiction is very Biblical and was used by Jesus. Thus we can get off our band wagon of concern for it.

Well cant say you have answered anything. Your basic idea seems to be I think its ok.

[Bravus]

I agree with what you've said there, Taylor. I think one of the problems is that Mrs White was sometimes not careful in making such distinctions, but instead tended to issue a blanket condemnation of all fiction, for example. Then those like Sulla who hold her words as Holy Writ are stuck in the corner where they feel constrained to follow those un-nuanced pronouncements to the letter and eschew all fiction, and condemn the church for using drama. There are lots of good personal perspectives in this thread, thoughtful and balanced, but as I understand it the aim was not to elicit personal perspectives, but to state that EGW condemns drama, and by implication to castigate the church for producing it.

[Taylor]

Satan knows that to a great degree the mind is affected by that upon which it feeds. He is seeking to lead both the youth and those of mature age to read [view] story-books, tales, and other literature [movies, movies, movies]. The readers [viewers] of such literature [drama] become unfitted for the duties lying before them. They live an unreal life, and have no desire to search the Scriptures, to feed upon the heavenly manna. The mind that needs strengthening is enfeebled, and loses its power to study the great truths that relate to the mission and work of Christ, —truths that would fortify the mind, awaken the imagination, and kindle a strong, earnest desire to overcome as Christ overcame.

Could a large share of the books [drama] published [produced] be consumed, a plague would be stayed that is doing a fearful work upon mind and heart. Love stories, frivolous and exciting tales [movies, movies], and even that class of books [movies] called religious novels [movies], —books [movies] in which the author [producer] attaches to his story a moral lesson, —are a curse to the readers [movie viewers]. Religious sentiments may be woven all through a storybook , but, in most cases, Satan is but clothed in angel‑robes, the more effectively to deceive and allure. None are so confirmed in right principles, none so secure from temptation, that they are safe in reading [viewing] these stories [movies].

(Emphasis supplied by the temcat site I am just to lazy to remove it all. )

--

We can never save our youth and children by arranging programs in our institutions or churches which make constant appeal to their love of entertainment. Indeed, where this appeal is continually made to their natures, they will lose interest in the solemn, sober realties of Christian service. They will tire of the meeting for prayer, of the preaching of the gospel, of the study of the Sabbath school lesson.

None of the above quote of EGW is about movies.

Here is what the principle of what she is saying:

1. Let's live in the real world....not in a world where the men are always unbelievably handsome, the women are georgious, and everyone is rich and falls in love madly with another person and lives happily ever after. Real life isn't like that 100% of the time. So such "novels" can bring about discontent for real life just like pornography is a dreadful substitute for a committed relationship between a man and a woman.

2. Jesus told stories that weren't "true" but used them as "parables" or to teach a point....so not all "untruths" are wrong when they teach a point.

3. We should use our time wisely in studying that which matters and enjoying the simple things of life like a walk outside etc. As a society we are "entertianed to death" instead of "studying to know God". But even so, we must also take time to "play" and "enjoy life" not make it all serious and study only.

4. If the venue, (i.e. pictures, movies, charts, stories) can bring a person to a heart felt surrender of their lives to God we should persue that avenue so as to reach people for the kingdome of God. There are bad books, but we don't throw out all books just because some are bad. There is dreadful TV but we don't throw out our Hope Channel dishes because of that.

5. We must also teach our kids to live in a world of sin and not be so protective that when they hit the real world they are so dumbfounded with everything that they are drawn into it like a magnet. We have to be in the world without being of the world. We can be firm in a godless society. But we mustn't be so scared of being contanminated that we can't have a Bible study in a house that has music or tv viewing going on that we don't agree with. We have to live in this world and relate to people where they are.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sulla]

PK

Quote:

Good post redwood. Its like when she wrote about not purchasing a bicycle. Was she really saying that riding a bicycle was wrong or was because some were buying bicycle's, which were very expensive, and not giving the church its tithes and offerings. Also from what I've always understood, one of the reason's she was against christians going to the theater's and pool halls was because of the very bad environmental elements that were found there. Like bars and many people smoking and using profane language. As far as your comment about christians going or not going to the movies, I would leave that to each individual christian as to what they can handle.

Come on now PK. If you read what she says its clear she was not talking about fiction and drama because of where it was at. She has a lot to say about reading fiction and thats done in the confines of your home.

[Woody]

I agree with what you've said there, Taylor. I think one of the problems is that Mrs White was sometimes not careful in making such distinctions, but instead tended to issue a blanket condemnation of all fiction, for example. Then those like Sulla who hold her words as Holy Writ are stuck in the corner where they feel constrained to follow those un-nuanced pronouncements to the letter and eschew all fiction, and condemn the church for using drama. There are lots of good personal perspectives in this thread, thoughtful and balanced, but as I understand it the aim was not to elicit personal perspectives, but to state that EGW condemns drama, and by implication to castigate the church for producing it.

Good Observations here Bravus. Quite insightful.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Principles and not laws.Yes. Let each person decide instead of having a list of legalist rules like the Jews.

Its interesting how this was not done in the Bible, early church, puritans etc, Adventists up till the 50s or so but yet. They all had it wrong and you know better. And with nothing to back up your views I have seen yet. My point being we have to have some kind of evidence for our ideas dont we?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Sulla

Satan knows that to a great degree the mind is affected by that upon which it feeds. He is seeking to lead both the youth and those of mature age to read [view] story-books, tales, and other literature [movies, movies, movies]. The readers [viewers] of such literature [drama] become unfitted for the duties lying before them. They live an unreal life, and have no desire to search the Scriptures, to feed upon the heavenly manna. The mind that needs strengthening is enfeebled, and loses its power to study the great truths that relate to the mission and work of Christ, —truths that would fortify the mind, awaken the imagination, and kindle a strong, earnest desire to overcome as Christ overcame.

Could a large share of the books [drama] published [produced] be consumed, a plague would be stayed that is doing a fearful work upon mind and heart. Love stories, frivolous and exciting tales [movies, movies], and even that class of books [movies] called religious novels [movies], —books [movies] in which the author [producer] attaches to his story a moral lesson, —are a curse to the readers [movie viewers]. Religious sentiments may be woven all through a storybook , but, in most cases, Satan is but clothed in angel‑robes, the more effectively to deceive and allure. None are so confirmed in right principles, none so secure from temptation, that they are safe in reading [viewing] these stories [movies].

(Emphasis supplied by the temcat site I am just to lazy to remove it all. )

--

We can never save our youth and children by arranging programs in our institutions or churches which make constant appeal to their love of entertainment. Indeed, where this appeal is continually made to their natures, they will lose interest in the solemn, sober realties of Christian service. They will tire of the meeting for prayer, of the preaching of the gospel, of the study of the Sabbath school lesson.

None of the above quote of EGW is about movies.

Here is what the principle of what she is saying:

1. Let's live in the real world....not in a world where the men are always unbelievably handsome, the women are georgious, and everyone is rich and falls in love madly with another person and lives happily ever after. Real life isn't like that 100% of the time. So such "novels" can bring about discontent for real life just like pornography is a dreadful substitute for a committed relationship between a man and a woman.

2. Jesus told stories that weren't "true" but used them as "parables" or to teach a point....so not all "untruths" are wrong when they teach a point.

3. We should use our time wisely in studying that which matters and enjoying the simple things of life like a walk outside etc. As a society we are "entertianed to death" instead of "studying to know God". But even so, we must also take time to "play" and "enjoy life" not make it all serious and study only.

4. If the venue, (i.e. pictures, movies, charts, stories) can bring a person to a heart felt surrender of their lives to God we should persue that avenue so as to reach people for the kingdome of God. There are bad books, but we don't throw out all books just because some are bad. There is dreadful TV but we don't throw out our Hope Channel dishes because of that.

5. We must also teach our kids to live in a world of sin and not be so protective that when they hit the real world they are so dumbfounded with everything that they are drawn into it like a magnet. We have to be in the world without being of the world. We can be firm in a godless society. But we mustn't be so scared of being contanminated that we can't have a Bible study in a house that has music or tv viewing going on that we don't agree with. We have to live in this world and relate to people where they are.

Just my 2 cents.

WOW !! You guys are good. There are lots of good insight here on this thread. And the above one is just super. Thank you so much Bravus and Taylor for getting this thread where it needs to be. Ellen White encouraged us to us all methods possible and especially new technology and methods. I think she would be pleased with what we are doing.

[Taylor]

I agree with what you've said there, Taylor. I think one of the problems is that Mrs White was sometimes not careful in making such distinctions, but instead tended to issue a blanket condemnation of all fiction, for example. Then those like Sulla who hold her words as Holy Writ are stuck in the corner where they feel constrained to follow those un-nuanced pronouncements to the letter and eschew all fiction, and condemn the church for using drama. There are lots of good personal perspectives in this thread, thoughtful and balanced, but as I understand it the aim was not to elicit personal perspectives, but to state that EGW condemns drama, and by implication to castigate the church for producing it.

I think the problem is not EGW's writings but what we do with them. For instance, have you ever taken everything she says a mother should do or not do in a day? You'd have to have a day that was more than 30 hours long to accomodate all of it. What we need to do is to look for the principle of the thing. Yes at times there are clear directives from God of "you should never...." but at other times, actually taking the principle of the matter will make the application more liberal and at times make it more encompassing. God expects us to think, to study, to compare, to use our minds. Not to throw out truth, but to understand the underlying principle of that truth.

[Sulla]

Neil D

Quote:

While I appreciate the need for solid doctrine, I doubt very much that access to would be comprehended without understanding and that means, one needs imagination to process that information.

I agree that TV is a great source of information and storytelling. But everyone has filters to color that information, and take out what they don't like. Even this medium, narrow as it is, is recieved differently than what the sender intended. An example is that there is no tone in this medium unless added [he said with a sly smile] thinking ...who adds to that information colors it...

oh, and eventually, someone is gonna try to bring up EGW into this discussion and there is a lot from her that is negetive. However, there is one point where she went to her own granddaughter's SS play...She made some critics upon the play...but never once did she say that acting, nor this brand of theater is wrong or morally bad . So, regardless of what you think of theater, movies, TV...the medium can be used for good, and does communicate great information and does it well. The question is "Why not use it as a tool for good?"

Still have have not seen any evidence for your view. As for the program with her granddughter it had speeches, poems and songs. With some of the children in costume. This is not drama as defined. And its interested if you read what else she said in relation to it.

While these painstaking efforts were being made to get up the performances, meetings were being held of the deepest interest which should have engaged the attention and which called for the presence of every soul lest they should lose something of the message the Master had sent to them. Now this Christmas has passed into eternity with its burden of record and we are anxious to see the result of it. Will it make those who acted their part in it more spiritually minded? Will it increase their sense of obligation to our heavenly Father who sent His Son into the world at such an infinite sacrifice to save fallen man from utter ruin? Was the mind awakened to grasp God because of His great love wherewith He has loved us?

We hope, now that the Christmas is in the past, that those who have put forth so much painstaking effort will now manifest a decided zeal and earnest, disinterested effort for the salvation of the souls of the teachers in the Sabbath school, that in their turn they may each labor for the salvation of the souls in their classes, to give them personal instruction as to what they must do to be saved. We hope that they will find time to labor in simplicity and in sincerity for the souls of those under their care, and that they will pray with them, and for them, that they may give to Jesus the precious offering of their own souls, that they may make literally true the symbol of the lighthouse in the beams of light shining forth from their own strong efforts in the name of Jesus, which should be put forth in love, they themselves grasping the rays of light to diffuse this light to others, and that there shall be no settling down to a surface work. Show just as great skill and aptitude in winning souls to Jesus as you have shown in painstaking effort for this occasion just past. Point them in your efforts with heart and soul enlisted, to the Star that shines out to the morally darkened heaven at this time, even the Light of the world. Let your light shine that the tempest-tossed souls may set their eyes upon it and escape the rocks that are concealed beneath the surface of the water. Temptations are lying in wait to deceive them, souls are oppressed with guilt ready to sink into despair. Labor to save them; point them to Jesus who so loved them that He gave His life for them. . . .

No I cant see this one event as something backing up drama on tv or in church. If on the other hand you want your child to dress up as a pilgrim and read a poem on thanksgiving well thats probably ok:)

[Sulla]

Quote:

Some of the parables of Jesus were based upon a lie. Or ... do you believe in being tormented in the flame?

Agains go back and read the definition of the things we are talking about:)

[Dr. Shane]

Metaphors and parables are not really what we are talking about.

Metaphors and parables were fictitious and certainly enter into this discussion.

[Taylor]

A lot of people critized HMS Richards for preaching on radio as they said the radio was evil. No it isn't evil. The Radio or TV or Drama, or books, or stories, or anything isn't evil...it's HOW it's used. We are under a divine obligation to use every means we can to reach people with the gospel of Jesus.

[Dr. Shane]

Here is what the principle of what she is saying:

1. Let's live in the real world....not in a world where the men are always unbelievably handsome, the women are georgious, and everyone is rich and falls in love madly with another person and lives happily ever after. Real life isn't like that 100% of the time. So such "novels" can bring about discontent for real life just like pornography is a dreadful substitute for a committed relationship between a man and a woman.

2. Jesus told stories that weren't "true" but used them as "parables" or to teach a point....so not all "untruths" are wrong when they teach a point.

3. We should use our time wisely in studying that which matters and enjoying the simple things of life like a walk outside etc. As a society we are "entertained to death" instead of "studying to know God". But even so, we must also take time to "play" and "enjoy life" not make it all serious and study only.

4. If the venue, (i.e. pictures, movies, charts, stories) can bring a person to a heart felt surrender of their lives to God we should pursue that avenue so as to reach people for the kingdom of God. There are bad books, but we don't throw out all books just because some are bad. There is dreadful TV but we don't throw out our Hope Channel dishes because of that.

5. We must also teach our kids to live in a world of sin and not be so protective that when they hit the real world they are so dumbfounded with everything that they are drawn into it like a magnet. We have to be in the world without being of the world. We can be firm in a godless society. But we mustn't be so scared of being contaminated that we can't have a Bible study in a house that has music or tv viewing going on that we don't agree with. We have to live in this world and relate to people where they are.

Just my 2 cents.

I couldn't say it better.

[Doug]

Not all untruths are lies.

Not aimed at anyone in particular.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Drama that is for the point of sensationalism is wrong. Drama to degrade the Bible story or make it silly is wrong. Drama that takes away from the seriousness or the point of the Bible story would be wrong.

However, drama for the point of making it real so even small children can understand the gospel can be so powerful and can bring people to the foot of the cross.

So again if drama is so good for this why was it not used in the Bible? Or if you believe in Ellen White why did not God show here this great tool of Drama. And why has it not helped the churches that used it the most to be more Godly?

[Woody]

Quote:

Some of the parables of Jesus were based upon a lie. Or ... do you believe in being tormented in the flame?

Agains go back and read the definition of the things we are talking about:)

Again ... I think each of us is free to define it as we choose. I am not sure why you keep insisting on your particular definition.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I agree with what you've said there, Taylor. I think one of the problems is that Mrs White was sometimes not careful in making such distinctions, but instead tended to issue a blanket condemnation of all fiction, for example. Then those like Sulla who hold her words as Holy Writ are stuck in the corner where they feel constrained to follow those un-nuanced pronouncements to the letter and eschew all fiction, and condemn the church for using drama. There are lots of good personal perspectives in this thread, thoughtful and balanced, but as I understand it the aim was not to elicit personal perspectives, but to state that EGW condemns drama, and by implication to castigate the church for producing it.

Clearly those "like" me are not basing our views on one statement from Ellen White. I am going by the Bible, early church fathers, other churches, adventist history and lots of Ellen White statements. And I have seen nothing from the other side except feelings and ideas. :)

[Woody]

So again if drama is so good for this why was it not used in the Bible? Or if you believe in Ellen White why did not God show here this great tool of Drama. And why has it not helped the churches that used it the most to be more Godly?

Ellen White did talk about the use of Drama when she said we should employ new methods of evangelism. The Bible does not mention Pathfinders ... should we disband them? And finally ... I believe quite the contrary ... I think that the churches that use Drama ARE growing and are more Godly. Can you prove otherwise?

I find the quoted arguments unpersuasive.

[Woody]

Simply an other thread to to make EGW as near to Biblical as possible. This subject, EGW, has been beaten to death over and over. Why people give credence to the idea by continuing to counter the argument is beyond me. Even when the Good lady says to go to to your Bible, people continue to ignore here.

Bottom line, God and the Holy Spirit are everyones personal Guide. For those that don't wish to do that and want more, sorry, that is all you get. We can continue to ignore the voice and try to tell others how they are to believe, but it is hopeless. Instead of always pointing, "God ,so glad I'm not as that poor sinner", just walk the walk. We sell God short with all of this arguing about the importance of who God chooses to speak with, prophet, preacher, writer, or the person on the cross. Their voices are all equal. How dare we decide of what importance the words of a minister or EGW, when they are lead by God. If God is not in control of the ministers words, writer or whomever, than it is all a farce.

The premise of this thread was not set up for discussion, because it is a catch-22. What ever is said to counter the originator will be tossed aside because it doesn't it their interpretation.

Sheesh!

Yes. We are clearly seeing this happen. There is an attempt to enforce the definition of how others are talking. Not good.

[Sulla]

Quote:

None of the above quote of EGW is about movies.

Here is what the principle of what she is saying:

1. Let's live in the real world....not in a world where the men are always unbelievably handsome, the women are georgious, and everyone is rich and falls in love madly with another person and lives happily ever after. Real life isn't like that 100% of the time. So such "novels" can bring about discontent for real life just like pornography is a dreadful substitute for a committed relationship between a man and a woman.

2. Jesus told stories that weren't "true" but used them as "parables" or to teach a point....so not all "untruths" are wrong when they teach a point.

3. We should use our time wisely in studying that which matters and enjoying the simple things of life like a walk outside etc. As a society we are "entertianed to death" instead of "studying to know God". But even so, we must also take time to "play" and "enjoy life" not make it all serious and study only.

4. If the venue, (i.e. pictures, movies, charts, stories) can bring a person to a heart felt surrender of their lives to God we should persue that avenue so as to reach people for the kingdome of God. There are bad books, but we don't throw out all books just because some are bad. There is dreadful TV but we don't throw out our Hope Channel dishes because of that.

5. We must also teach our kids to live in a world of sin and not be so protective that when they hit the real world they are so dumbfounded with everything that they are drawn into it like a magnet. We have to be in the world without being of the world. We can be firm in a godless society. But we mustn't be so scared of being contanminated that we can't have a Bible study in a house that has music or tv viewing going on that we don't agree with. We have to live in this world and relate to people where they are.

Just my 2 cents.

First please go back and read the definition of drama we are using. And we can also look at dramatic stories compared to say parables.

But let me now present a bigger pictures since we are talking about Ellen Whites views. And let me get your view correct. Ellen White lived a long life. Wrote and lot about this and worked with people all over the world. In this time we did not use drama and the church understood we should not use drama. But some how they were all wrong and Ellen White was really saying we should use it just in the right way?

[Sulla]

Quote:

I think the problem is not EGW's writings but what we do with them. For instance, have you ever taken everything she says a mother should do or not do in a day? You'd have to have a day that was more than 30 hours long to accomodate all of it. What we need to do is to look for the principle of the thing. Yes at times there are clear directives from God of "you should never...." but at other times, actually taking the principle of the matter will make the application more liberal and at times make it more encompassing. God expects us to think, to study, to compare, to use our minds. Not to throw out truth, but to understand the underlying principle of that truth.

Well on this subject we have clear directives:)

[Woody]

Quote:

I think the problem is not EGW's writings but what we do with them. For instance, have you ever taken everything she says a mother should do or not do in a day? You'd have to have a day that was more than 30 hours long to accomodate all of it. What we need to do is to look for the principle of the thing. Yes at times there are clear directives from God of "you should never...." but at other times, actually taking the principle of the matter will make the application more liberal and at times make it more encompassing. God expects us to think, to study, to compare, to use our minds. Not to throw out truth, but to understand the underlying principle of that truth.

Well on this subject we have clear directives:)

Clear to one person anyways.

[Bravus]

CoAspen, I can understand your frustration, but I do think there's always something to be learned from a discussion. Even if it's that we *don't* subscribe to a particular viewpoint, and why.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Metaphors and parables were fictitious and certainly enter into this discussion.

Really I guese we should have two discussions. One about drama in regard to acting and dramatic stories. The other in regard to written or told work. Like books or stories in sermons.

[Bravus]

Sulla, you can keep trying to force the definition to be super-narrow if you wish, but (a) that's not really the way web forums work - by the nature of the medium the discussion tends to be wide-ranging and ( anyone can win an argument if they're allowed to tightly define all the terms. It's more of a realistic challenge if you follow the argument where it goes.