Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I don't know where in the Bible that drama was even mentioned or condemned, everything seems to be based on real life events.

Its not mentioned we are told directly only to watch what is good. And in a bigger picture it not being used by the people of God is saying something. The theater was very very popular thruout much of the Bible. But yet we never hear of it being used by Gods people. And the early church fathers understood Christians should not go to theater etc. Cyprian [200-258] makes a lot of sense when he says that Scripture has forbidden gazing upon what it forbids to be done.

And dont get me wrong I am not saying the early church fathers are our guide to everything. But its clear Ellen Whites warnings against drama and theater mesh with the Bible and early christians.

[Sulla]

Here is good article on the subject I just found. Link

[Neil D]

Its not mentioned we are told directly only to watch what is good. And in a bigger picture it not being used by the people of God is saying something. The theater was very very popular thruout much of the Bible. But yet we never hear of it being used by Gods people. And the early church fathers understood Christians should not go to theater etc. Cyprian [200-258] makes a lot of sense when he says that Scripture has forbidden gazing upon what it forbids to be done.

And dont get me wrong I am not saying the early church fathers are our guide to everything. But its clear Ellen Whites warnings against drama and theater mesh with the Bible and early christians.

Whatever you do then, don't read Song of Solomon then. In fact, best to rip that story out of the bible entirely...It must not be inspired stuff to read....

[bygjymbo]

Quote:

Ezekiel Ezekiel 8:9-10,12 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. ... Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.

While this verse is in no way irrefutable, I find it interesting never the less.

Did the Lord provide Ezekiel a glimpse of TV in his vision??

[Neil D]

TV is a medium for stories, parables, and other literature.

Are we saying that food for the imagination must be given only by ONE method? And that ONE method is sanctified?

[Dr. Shane]

This is an excellent subject. We discussed this a few years back with a link to "Drama In The Seventh-day Adventist Church." The church's position has clearly shifted on this subject. And this is a subject not clearly addressed by the Bible.

I do not see a problem with drama or fiction in principle. Jesus used fiction in some of His parables. Biblical prophecy uses metaphors which are fictitious. Fiction can be a means to teach principles to people that would otherwise struggle to grasp them.

Drama is a powerful tool. It can be used for good. One example is the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement in the US was helped along by Hollywood creating dramas that depicted black families favorably. The Jeffersons even had a mix marriage as part of their cast of characters. Other programs were Good Times, Sanford & Son and Bill Cosby. These programs made white Americans more comfortable with blacks and sympathetic to their struggles.

On the flip side drama can be used for bad. We see that today with Hollywood's obsession to convince Americans that gays are some sort of minority class that should be provided special rights. We see their obsession not only limited to gay sex but to all forms of illicit and Biblical forbidden sex. They seem to be just as obsessed with violence and often times depict violence as a means of solving problems. They also take the Lord's name in vain to an alarming degree.

The American people have reached a level of being maxed out with a lot of drama. Thus the invention of reality shows. Channels like H&GTV, Discovery, Animal Planet, 24-Hour News and even religious channels are getting some impressive ratings over the networks that are airing prime-time drama.

[bygjymbo]

I believe that TV can be a great source of inspiration and knowledge.

I also believe that the majority of it is corrupted, and unfit for consumption.

This isn't meant to be flip, but a valid analogy: Would you eat a big portion of macaroni and cheese with a small dose of hemlock? How about a small portion af macaroni and cheese with a big portion of hemlock?

Why do we need "food for the imagination" anyway??? What we need is truth.

[bygjymbo]

I posted that last comment before I read Shane's...

I also believe that TV is designed to change your point of view, and that it is effective.

At what point do you draw the line? Do you choose the subjects that your point of view will be changed?

And let's throw US out of the equasion. How about your kids? Or your neighbors, who don't know Jesus?

[Woody]

All I can say is that times change and thus the instructions of a Christian. If you even briefly read Ellen White you can see the results of culture. God has given us a brain and priciples to live by. All one has to do is to look at the subject of Sabbath. God does not want legalist rules like the Jews had. He wants us to use our brains and our individual experiences.

I personally find nothing inheirantly wrong with movies. I find they are now in common use by our church. And there is nothing wrong with that. I also like drama. Andrews has a great Easter drama each year. This is good and it has provided a good witness to the community.

Personally ... I've been to a movie theater only once in my life. It was in a foreign country where SDA culture accepted it more at the time. But, I don't see anything wrong with going. I was just brought up in the early SDA culture where it was frowned upon so I didn't make a habit of going. I am too much of a goodie goodie.

In the time of Ellen White ... I have to say that perhaps it was not a good place for Christians. But I think it is now even though I don't go.

Well ... I don't know if I have answered any of your questions. But these are just my thoughts. But I also wanted to say I appreciate Shanes comments. He made it clear that fiction is very Biblical and was used by Jesus. Thus we can get off our band wagon of concern for it.

[bygjymbo]

Here's two out of six definitions for "fiction" from dictionary.com

Quote:

3.something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.

5.an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

In the first example, the underlying root is based on a lie.

In the second example, it is, or can be, truth.

Jesus' parables were used to explain the truth.

Most fiction on TV and the movies is based on dramtic and outlandish lies.

BIG difference.

[phkrause]

Good post redwood. Its like when she wrote about not purchasing a bicycle. Was she really saying that riding a bicycle was wrong or was because some were buying bicycle's, which were very expensive, and not giving the church its tithes and offerings. Also from what I've always understood, one of the reason's she was against christians going to the theater's and pool halls was because of the very bad environmental elements that were found there. Like bars and many people smoking and using profane language. As far as your comment about christians going or not going to the movies, I would leave that to each individual christian as to what they can handle.

pk

[Woody]

Principles and not laws.Yes. Let each person decide instead of having a list of legalist rules like the Jews.

[Neil D]

I believe that TV can be a great source of inspiration and knowledge.

I also believe that the majority of it is corrupted, and unfit for consumption.

This isn't meant to be flip, but a valid analogy: Would you eat a big portion of macaroni and cheese with a small dose of hemlock? How about a small portion af macaroni and cheese with a big portion of hemlock?

Why do we need "food for the imagination" anyway??? What we need is truth.

While I appreciate the need for solid doctrine, I doubt very much that access to would be comprehended without understanding and that means, one needs imagination to process that information.

I agree that TV is a great source of information and storytelling. But everyone has filters to color that information, and take out what they don't like. Even this medium, narrow as it is, is recieved differently than what the sender intended. An example is that there is no tone in this medium unless added [he said with a sly smile] ...who adds to that information colors it...

oh, and eventually, someone is gonna try to bring up EGW into this discussion and there is a lot from her that is negetive. However, there is one point where she went to her own granddaughter's SS play...She made some critics upon the play...but never once did she say that acting, nor this brand of theater is wrong or morally bad . So, regardless of what you think of theater, movies, TV...the medium can be used for good, and does communicate great information and does it well. The question is "Why not use it as a tool for good?"

[Woody]

Quote:

In the first example, the underlying root is based on a lie.

Some of the parables of Jesus were based upon a lie. Or ... do you believe in being tormented in the flame?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In my Drama class at WWC 20+ years ago (yeah, we had a drama class then), my professor addressed the pros and cons of going to the movies in town. Her final say on the matter was that she would call the theater and ask if it would be appropriate for her to bring her 7-yr-old daughter to the movie. That's how she geared whether or not she attended a specific movie or not.

Now 20+ years later, ideas about appropriateness have changed, so I'm not sure how relevant that advice would be today.

[Neil D]

Quote:

In the first example, the underlying root is based on a lie.

Some of the parables of Jesus were based upon a lie. Or ... do you believe in being tormented in the flame?

Exactly what I was thinking.....

[phkrause]

I see that statement alot about all the rules that the jews had. And I'm not saying that you are intending to use that in the wrong way. But one of the reason's the jews had all those laws was because they felt that God had abandon them and allowed the babylonians, etc., to take them into captivity. They never listened to the prophets or really understood what the covenant was about. So they created rules for observing the Sabbath etc. and that's how so many of them became legalist. But you know, that even those that don't realize that all those other rules are man made, might being following them with there heart. Not just for the wrong reason but the right reason. Only God knows our hearts and why we do what we do. Is it for selfish reasons or is it because we really love the Lord. Sorry if I'm making to much of that comment.

pk

[Woody]

Thanks Pk ... your point is well taken.

[bygjymbo]

Some of the parables of Jesus were based upon a lie. Or ... do you believe in being tormented in the flame?

[Sulla]

Defining Drame

At this point since it clear no one read links I provided that define drama. We will have to do it here. For if we dont define drama we will not be talking about the same thing:)

Now just to make things easy I am going to just post a section from the secound link I posted. No reason for me to recreat the wheel when I agree with his explanation of the definition of drama.

--

Drama Defined

In order for us to be able to see what the Bible has to teach about drama, and not be comparing apples with oranges, it is necessary for us to define what drama is. I am going to do that now. This is essential because the premise upon which the current movement to bring drama into the worship service is that it has its roots in the Bible.

What is the definition of drama? Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary brings us a helpful definition: "A composition in verse or prose intended to portray life or character or tell a story usually involving conflicts and emotions through action and dialogue and typically designed for theatrical performance." I would prefer to add "or mime" after the word "prose" and the words "and/or" between "action . . . dialogue". Otherwise it will do as an anvil on which we can hammer out a working definition.

There are two key words for a production to be drama. The first word is "representation". This means that the actors represent persons who are either real or imaginary. Even when the actor is representing himself, it is still a representation.

Drama is never a live action; at best it is a "replay". By the way, the origin of the word for hypocrisy is the Greek word "hypocrites", In Greek theater the actor who played a part and pretended to be someone else was called the hypocrite.

The second ingredient of drama is found in the word "conflict". No one is interested in either acting or watching a string of unrelated events portrayed on stage. A dramatic presentation always involves a theme which consists of characters involved with each other in such a way that there is a development of a plot or story line.

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary brings in this element in its third description of drama: it says that drama is "A series of actions or course of events having dramatic unity, and leading to a final catastrophe." This plot or storyline, or "course of events" may be the intense conflict of characters in the thriller, the humorous interrelationships of the comedy or the absurdly futile development of the farce. It may simply involve reenacting a biblical event or parable. However, drama will always have a plan and purpose. It has a plot that develops throughout the presentation. A possible exception to this is the use of simulation and role-play in an educational setting. But even in role playing there is a form of conflict, as the person is made to "feel" the theme of their playacting. so there we have the dictionary definitions of drama.

The whole thing can become confusing though, because these days many people describe drama in such a broad way that it makes its definition meaningless. We are being told that we all use drama in everyday life: the raised voice in anger, the scowl of disapproval, the cringe of fear, the smile of welcome, and so on. But, if all this is "drama", we will have to find another word to describe what goes on the stage.

Our emotional and physical responses to life are spontaneous and personal. They are an unplanned reflection of our own feelings. Our smiles and frowns and so on are not drama, they are real life. We must be true to the definition. But the word is being stretched beyond its true meaning. Nowadays we talk of the "drama" as the police close in on the gunman, and of "dramatic" interludes in the otherwise boring routine of life. We even speak of the dramatic rebirth of the butterfly from the chrysalis. Though we are using the word drama, this doesn't really fit the definition. Most of the time when we use the word "dramatic" we really mean nothing more than "thrilling, gripping, fascinating".

If we are going to discuss whether or not drama can be a legitimate part of worship, we must agree on what we are talking about. For the record let me repeat the definition. Drama is "A play in verse, prose or mime of a story which develops a theme. It is performed by actors who represent other people, real or imagined." So then this brief definition contains all the essentials of what constitutes a play. It is not essential to have scenery and costumes.

[Sulla]

Neil

Quote:

Whatever you do then, don't read Song of Solomon then. In fact, best to rip that story out of the bible entirely...It must not be inspired stuff to read....

This is not drama see definition above.

bygjymbo

Quote:

While this verse is in no way irrefutable, I find it interesting never the less.

Did the Lord provide Ezekiel a glimpse of TV in his vision??

A vision of real things is not drama see the definition posted.

Neil D

Quote:

TV is a medium for stories, parables, and other literature.

Are we saying that food for the imagination must be given only by ONE method? And that ONE method is sanctified?

Again see definition of Drama.

[Sulla]

Quote:

This is an excellent subject. We discussed this a few years back with a link to "Drama In The Seventh-day Adventist Church." The church's position has clearly shifted on this subject. And this is a subject not clearly addressed by the Bible.

I do not see a problem with drama or fiction in principle. Jesus used fiction in some of His parables. Biblical prophecy uses metaphors which are fictitious. Fiction can be a means to teach principles to people that would otherwise struggle to grasp them.

Drama is a powerful tool. It can be used for good. One example is the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement in the US was helped along by Hollywood creating dramas that depicted black families favorably. The Jeffersons even had a mix marriage as part of their cast of characters. Other programs were Good Times, Sanford & Son and Bill Cosby. These programs made white Americans more comfortable with blacks and sympathetic to their struggles.

On the flip side drama can be used for bad. We see that today with Hollywood's obsession to convince Americans that gays are some sort of minority class that should be provided special rights. We see their obsession not only limited to gay sex but to all forms of illicit and Biblical forbidden sex. They seem to be just as obsessed with violence and often times depict violence as a means of solving problems. They also take the Lord's name in vain to an alarming degree.

The American people have reached a level of being maxed out with a lot of drama. Thus the invention of reality shows. Channels like H&GTV, Discovery, Animal Planet, 24-Hour News and even religious channels are getting some impressive ratings over the networks that are airing prime-time drama.

Metaphors and parables are not really what we are talking about. Again see the definition of Drama I added. And its clear no where in the Bible were people doing drama as defined. No one was acting out scenes representing other people. And acting out a story with a theme. Me telling you the story of how my grandpa survived ww2 is not drama. HBO making a movie about it is. A documentary about it is not.

[Sulla]

bygjymbo

Quote:

I believe that TV can be a great source of inspiration and knowledge.

I also believe that the majority of it is corrupted, and unfit for consumption.

This isn't meant to be flip, but a valid analogy: Would you eat a big portion of macaroni and cheese with a small dose of hemlock? How about a small portion af macaroni and cheese with a big portion of hemlock?

Why do we need "food for the imagination" anyway??? What we need is truth.

Yes and I am not saying all TV is bad. I am talking about drama and fiction specificly. And then saying if drama was wrong in the theater and its not right to read dramatic fiction books. Then how can us say watching law and order or friends some how be ok.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I posted that last comment before I read Shane's...

I also believe that TV is designed to change your point of view, and that it is effective.

At what point do you draw the line? Do you choose the subjects that your point of view will be changed?

And let's throw US out of the equasion. How about your kids? Or your neighbors, who don't know Jesus?

Well what does the Bible way. We should only look at what is pure and holy?

[Taylor]

Drama that is for the point of sensationalism is wrong. Drama to degrade the Bible story or make it silly is wrong. Drama that takes away from the seriousness or the point of the Bible story would be wrong.

However, drama for the point of making it real so even small children can understand the gospel can be so powerful and can bring people to the foot of the cross.