Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Tom Wetmore]

Good question, Tom. One that requires discernment.

...Yes, and as seems evident by this thread, sagacity is in short supply, or lacking from a dearth of desire to discern.

Tom

[John317]

[fccool]

Quote:

Actually, the North American Church is quite "liberal" compared to the church in Latin American, Africa and Asia. The church is growing faster than we can build buildings for them in areas where it is very strict and rigid.

Rigidity has little to do with it... has more to do with desperation. Discipline for these people is a way of life. People live from paycheck to paycheck and they have to depend on their neighbors and community for collective survival. You will find more religious folk among poor than among rich. Yet enforcing morality for the sake of morality does not do any good, neither does it prepare you to face immorality.

Freedom comes from being able to say no to certain things even if these are in front of you. That's what Christianity is not about sensory and auditory sterilization. We are in a broken world, and we have to teach ourselves to deal with certain issues. We need to hold people responsible enough to handle these issues. They don't have to embrace and accept it... as you may not agree with a person that you are speaking to in an every day conversation... but films and fiction are just narrative stories, which in many cases exemplifies realities that people are living in. You can ignore these, or you can take the best and be able to relate to people better.

Movies are books of today. We are visual generation. Consider the graphic nature of the "Crime and Punishment", or "The Heart of Darkness". Would you prohibit Christian to read these classics because these contain some sexuality and gore? There is much to learn from these... yet these are the books that would be "D-listed" by certain church standards today.

I mean... Uncle Tom's cabin was criticized by E.G. White... a book that I grew up with and loved reading. What would she say about the above described classics? At certain point you have to use your own judgment based on Biblical evidence... and not cultural stigmatas of the past.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Not really. Think about it in the bigger picture...

Well here is the really bigger picture and we are all theater people...

Quote:

The world is a theater. The actors, its inhabitants, are preparing to act their part in the last great drama. {RH, September 10, 1903 par. 4}

The fallen world is the battle-field for the greatest conflict the heavenly universe and earthly powers have ever witnessed. It was appointed as the theater on which would be fought out the grand struggle between good and evil, between heaven and hell. Every human being acts a part in this conflict. {GCB, April 1, 1899 par. 1}

The so-called Christian world is to be the theater of great and decisive actions. {1MR 296.5}

The church of Christ, enfeebled and defective as she may appear, is the one object on earth on which he bestows in a special sense his love and regard. The church is the theater of his grace, in which he delights to make experiments of mercy on human hearts. {RH, December 4, 1900 par. 4}

God chose this world to be the theater of His mighty work of grace. {ST, February 22, 1899 par. 4}

"We are made a theater unto the world, both (R.V., margin) to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9, margin. {Ed 154.2}

So, according to EGW this grand theater drama is a God ordained idea, and Biblical too.

And it seems of considerable interest that the world as theater metaphor is a paraphrase of, or at least an allusion to, William Shakespeare's "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players" from As You Like It.

Hmmm...

[phkrause]

Good Post. It shows how much she is taken out of context. Not by you! So don't take it the wrong way. She obviously wanted people to spend time reading there bible's, and at least make sure of the fiction that you are reading has some value.

pk

[Neil D]

We all know of EGW concern for Education...shoot, she wrote a book on it....past times were of concern for her as she was interested in that tenuous relationship of 'idle hands' and 'devil's work'.

When it came to creative talent, she wanted people to practice their talents, and school was the place to expand/hone those talents. She had a use for writers as she also gave them one or two letters.

It is of interest to me, that she wrote of passover, a ceremonial display, where the people of God were to create temporary homes to symbolize the rescueing of the Hebrews from Egypt once per year. We forget that this ritual was, in essence, a play in which all were forced to participate in. It was a play with a point, and it was live action....and a reinactment....

Today, our movement has similar symbols...We have campmeetings, that have come down from Egypt and been modified by Christ's death...A time where we come together as once group of people and worship the Lord...in rememberance of those future times when all, both living and resurrected are brought together...

Granted, we don't come together for the reinactment, but nevertheless, the result is talk of past experiences, and hopefull future reinactments in a far far away place called, 'heaven'.

[Woody]

Good Post. It shows how much she is taken out of context. Not by you! So don't take it the wrong way. She obviously wanted people to spend time reading there bible's, and at least make sure of the fiction that you are reading has some value.

pk

[Sulla]

Quote:

Clearly your mind is made up in such a way that the absence of evidence counts as evidence. But really, all the absence of evidence can be evidence for is the absence of evidence. So the bottom line is that there is no Biblical case at all, just the church fathers and EGW. That may be plenty, but you can't claim it establishes a Biblical case.

Well really there are several questions not just one. First the one is what should we view generally. And the Bible says what is pure and holy. The same understanding as the early church fathers. This alone would make watching most TV or movies not a good thing to do. Think about it most TVs and plays have, murder, cheating, sex outside of marriage and much much worse. And even the "good" drama always has some bad people. Because without some kind of danger or problem you cant make something dramatic.

Now what about acting and theaters. Them being so wide spread but not ever being used in the Bible does make a case that they were not accepted. And its clear they were not accepted by the early church fathers and the test I mentioned. The while I have shown a good case for it not being a good thing. I have seen only the very slimmest case for it being ok.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Reading at the rigid responses on the thread and the lists of the "approved" films... really reminds me why our churches in US are not growing ... because these treat grown ups like children. It really is ridiculous.

Thats funny. The churches in europe are the most liberal in the world and are falling away the fastest. Some countries in europe have seen attendance fall 85% since the 1970s. And the US has gotten more liberal but church growth has fallen. So I dont think lowering standards is what helps:)

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Conference should have no business telling you how to dress, what to wear, watch, eat, whom to date... marry. It's YOUR decision based on YOUR own understanding of the truth. This is the only one you will be judged on.... what you DO with respect on what you KNOW.

The church should have basic guidelines and explain them. Can they go to far yes. But its been going the other way for 50+ years. Where now we have almost no guidlines and anything is ok.

Quote:

Forgive my outrage, but frankly I'm getting a bit tired of people whipping out lists of "disapproved" and quoting someone else without clearly being able to explain why and show some real Biblical bases for their answers.

Really I think its sad so many can overlook so much evidence.

Quote:

So, here it is AGAIN. There's plenty of R and X rated material in the Bible and it is there for a reason. There's no need to soften the impact, or avoiding it. Yes, Bible does say dwell on what it good and holy, but I see no indication of forgetting and ignoring what is horrible and evil! There's much to learn from both.

We are told by the Bible and spirit of prophecy to only view what is holy. And there is nothing int he Bible R or X rated. To get those rating it would have to clearly describe the details of something in very graphic terms. Just mentioning it does not to that. Thats why you can have rape, murder and torture on network TV every night.

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God could have left out the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, but he did not. It was for our benefit when it's all said and done. Some people make it look like a forbidden tree that God does not want us to go to, but if Adam and Eve asked... they would be given answers. God does not mind questions. You don't have to learn from your mistakes if you learn from the mistakes of other.

WHAT? You understand thats not Biblical at all. Adam and Eve did not EVER need to know about evil. Satan lied to them and told them it was something good God was holding back from them.

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That's what parables told by Jesus were for. I'm convinced that many of these are made up (fiction), yet these allude to real life situations and people can derive the real-life application from.

Well there is no evidence most of what he said is made up. And lets be honest comparing a tree to the christian life in no way makes reading Harry Potter ok.

Quote:

I find many Christian stories of today shallow and irrelevant... and self centered in many aspects. Many avoid realities, and push dilutions like... "pay tithe and you will be rich" , "pray more and everything will be ok". This is not the reality, and this is not what Bible teaches. Bible teaches that there is much suffering in this world, and we are here to alleviate suffering for other to show them THE WAY. That's what early Christians were called THE FOLLOWERS OF THE WAY.

ok

Quote:

There's a scene from film "Magnolia" that really strikes the point home... a kid is talking to a cop using rap rhymes and tells him who the killer is, but the cop just ignores the kid because he does not like the language. I love that film. It has much to say about our society today... Christians and non-Christians alike. It's funny that many Christians take similar attitude while watching the film... they miss the great points because they are caught up in being offended because of the couple uncomfortable realities portrayed... and ironically they end up dwelling on the negative said rather than positive.

Truth and error mixed is a very dangerous thing. The Devil is an expert at putting in a little truth and good with a lot of error and evil using it to great effect.

[Sulla]

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Yes. Theaters were common even in Ellen White's time. And Ellen White attended theaters.

You just said they were not invented yet. Now I am confused.

[Sulla]

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So, was the purpose of this thread to change our minds?

Generally thats what discussing something is about. I wanted to look at the subject more. And I would hope every one else reading would be open to what ever the truth is also.

But my point in saying the thread was about over was those saying it was OK had nothing to back it up with. And there minds were made up rejecting what guidence we do have.

[Sulla]

Quote:

So, according to EGW this grand theater drama is a God ordained idea, and Biblical too.

And it seems of considerable interest that the world as theater metaphor is a paraphrase of, or at least an allusion to, William Shakespeare's "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players" from As You Like It.

Haha you cant believe this, can you?

[Sulla]

Quote:

We all know of EGW concern for Education...shoot, she wrote a book on it....past times were of concern for her as she was interested in that tenuous relationship of 'idle hands' and 'devil's work'.

When it came to creative talent, she wanted people to practice their talents, and school was the place to expand/hone those talents. She had a use for writers as she also gave them one or two letters.

It is of interest to me, that she wrote of passover, a ceremonial display, where the people of God were to create temporary homes to symbolize the rescueing of the Hebrews from Egypt once per year. We forget that this ritual was, in essence, a play in which all were forced to participate in. It was a play with a point, and it was live action....and a reinactment....

Today, our movement has similar symbols...We have campmeetings, that have come down from Egypt and been modified by Christ's death...A time where we come together as once group of people and worship the Lord...in rememberance of those future times when all, both living and resurrected are brought together...

Granted, we don't come together for the reinactment, but nevertheless, the result is talk of past experiences, and hopefull future reinactments in a far far away place called, 'heaven'.

Many you guys are really reaching trying to find something to make it ok to watch drama and read novels.

[bygjymbo]

Your 100% on the money, Sulla. "The voice of one crying in the wilderness"...

[Bravus]

You didn't really engage with the logic of my point at all. Let me try to simplify it even further:

* The Bible condemns many bad things

* (As you noted) drama existed in Bible times

* The Bible does not condemn drama

In the absence of further evidence, the conclusion would be that the Bible writers did not see drama as something bad that required condemnation.

Not, as you seem to be claiming, that they did see it as bad but were unaccountably silent on the topic.

The question of judging drama on its content is precisely the question you've been trying to avoid all along - the drama produced by the church has good content, but you want to condemn it simply because it's drama.

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes. Theaters were common even in Ellen White's time. And Ellen White attended theaters.

You just said they were not invented yet. Now I am confused.

I've noticed a lot of confusion from you ... but I never said that Theaters had not been invented ... because as I have stated ... Ellen White attended them.

[Bravus]

Theaters ≠ cinemas

[Woody]

huh ?

[Bravus]

It could be that when you say 'theaters' you mean plays with live actors, but Sulla is assuming 'theaters' means movie theaters, i.e. cinemas. The former had been invented in EGWs time... and to some extent even the latter. My little 'is not equal to' sign above was just my most concise attempt to make it clear which of them was being discussed. Call it pseudocode.

[Dr. Shane]

Rigidity has little to do with it... has more to do with desperation... You will find more religious folk among poor than among rich.

[Woody]

It could be that when you say 'theaters' you mean plays with live actors, but Sulla is assuming 'theaters' means movie theaters, i.e. cinemas. The former had been invented in EGWs time... and to some extent even the latter. My little 'is not equal to' sign above was just my most concise attempt to make it clear which of them was being discussed. Call it pseudocode.

All I can go by is that Ellen White said she went the Theater. What that meant at her time ... I have no idea. But I do know that they did not have 'movies' in her time.

[Woody]

I would define a 'liberal' church as one which accepts having multiple wives and yet those SDA churches that do that seem to be growing fast. Just check out the stats on African church growth.

[Woody]

Quote:

"For twelve days we labored earnestly for the Auckland church. Evening meetings were held as often as the brethren could attend, and each Sabbath and Sunday was fully occupied. Twice I spoke in the theater, to attentive audiences. Elder Starr labored untiringly for the church, and several of the evening meetings were called early in the evening, and divided into two meetings." RH, May 30, 1893 par. 2

Apparently there was nothing wrong with the building itself ... just the content of what was witnessed.

[Dr. Shane]

In a small town in Minnesota the local theater only showed movies on the weekend. So we rented the theater during the week and held an evangelistic campaign there. It was a great place since everyone in town knew where it was and it was not affiliated with any specific denomination.

[Dr. Shane]

I would define a 'liberal' church as one which accepts having multiple wives and yet those SDA churches that do that seem to be growing fast. Just check out the stats on African church growth.

The terms 'liberal' and 'conservative' are relative terms. I don't know how many African Adventist churches allow multiple wives but I am familiar with the controversy.

I attended school with a guy from Kenya. His dad was a Baptist minister and his brother had converted to Adventism. He told me that where they lived those that had multiple wives prior to being baptized were allowed to keep them but not hold church office. To force them to divorce their wives could be a death sentence to the divorced wives as they would have no one to take care of them. I think the Bible allows for multiple wives but discourages it.

However, let's think about these labels of 'liberal' and 'conservative'. The same church that will let a convert coming into the church from paganism or Islam to keep his multiple wives will disfellowship women for wearing jeans to church. Is that a 'liberal' or 'conservative' church? Whatever it is, it certainly is rigid and it is not slowing down growth.