Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Woody]

Sulla, you can keep trying to force the definition to be super-narrow if you wish, but (a) that's not really the way web forums work - by the nature of the medium the discussion tends to be wide-ranging and ( anyone can win an argument if they're allowed to tightly define all the terms. It's more of a realistic challenge if you follow the argument where it goes.

Exactly what I have been trying to say ... but it comes out better from you.

[Dr. Shane]

So again if drama is so good for this why was it not used in the Bible?

We don't know that it wasn't. Of course they didn't have the technology that we have today. But they may have used small-production plays or little puppet shows. The book of Job and Song of Solomon both read like plays.

[Bravus]

Could the whole book of Hosea be regarded as a (heartbreaking) dramatic production God staged to teach Israel how much he loved her?

[Neil D]

Neil

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Whatever you do then, don't read Song of Solomon then. In fact, best to rip that story out of the bible entirely...It must not be inspired stuff to read....

This is not drama see definition above.

[Neil D]

I agree with what you've said there, Taylor. I think one of the problems is that Mrs White was sometimes not careful in making such distinctions, but instead tended to issue a blanket condemnation of all fiction, for example. Then those like Sulla who hold her words as Holy Writ are stuck in the corner where they feel constrained to follow those un-nuanced pronouncements to the letter and eschew all fiction, and condemn the church for using drama. There are lots of good personal perspectives in this thread, thoughtful and balanced, but as I understand it the aim was not to elicit personal perspectives, but to state that EGW condemns drama, and by implication to castigate the church for producing it.

...Which in my mind, Bravus, makes the person attempting to do so, a hypocrite.

BTW, "Hypocrite" in the old greeks sense of the word, was used to DEFINE CHARACTER IN A PLAY. IOWs, he defined the character that he pretended to be, in order to bring out the point of the play. It was NOT in the sense that he became a person whose actions belie stated beliefs nor a person whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. It was in the sense of interpretation of a character.

Has anyone looked for EGW comments on her daughter's SS play? All the comments that she made to avoid theater went out the window when she commented on the play and NEVER CONDEMNED IT. This speaks volumes toward the subject of theater, drama, and TV. God, thru EGW wants us to use our heads, and pick out tasteful and pointed plays that speak to the heart. It is not to sensationalize the play, but to bring an evangelistic tool to the forefront of evangelism...This is what dramatic art is all about....

[Sulla]

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A lot of people critized HMS Richards for preaching on radio as they said the radio was evil. No it isn't evil. The Radio or TV or Drama, or books, or stories, or anything isn't evil...it's HOW it's used. We are under a divine obligation to use every means we can to reach people with the gospel of Jesus.

The difference there is nothing to backup that Radio or TV is evil as a technology.

[Sulla]

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Again ... I think each of us is free to define it as we choose. I am not sure why you keep insisting on your particular definition.

We have a basic directive from the Bible to only watch what is holy and good. No evidence of drama used at all in the entire history of the Bible. And Ellen White then expands on that and makes it even more clear. But some how we are supposed to over look all the evidence and trust that its ok now?

The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. {AH 412.2}

[Sulla]

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Simply an other thread to to make EGW as near to Biblical as possible. This subject, EGW, has been beaten to death over and over. Why people give credence to the idea by continuing to counter the argument is beyond me. Even when the Good lady says to go to to your Bible, people continue to ignore here.

Bottom line, God and the Holy Spirit are everyones personal Guide. For those that don't wish to do that and want more, sorry, that is all you get. We can continue to ignore the voice and try to tell others how they are to believe, but it is hopeless. Instead of always pointing, "God ,so glad I'm not as that poor sinner", just walk the walk. We sell God short with all of this arguing about the importance of who God chooses to speak with, prophet, preacher, writer, or the person on the cross. Their voices are all equal. How dare we decide of what importance the words of a minister or EGW, when they are lead by God. If God is not in control of the ministers words, writer or whomever, than it is all a farce.

The premise of this thread was not set up for discussion, because it is a catch-22. What ever is said to counter the originator will be tossed aside because it doesn't it their interpretation.

Our own feelings about what the holy spirit is telling us is not to trump the Bible.

[Taylor]

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Again ... I think each of us is free to define it as we choose. I am not sure why you keep insisting on your particular definition.

We have a basic directive from the Bible to only watch what is holy and good. No evidence of drama used at all in the entire history of the Bible.

There is also no mention of TV or radio in any of EGW's writings..but that doesn't make it evil. Things can be used for evil or for good.

[Bravus]

There's no mention of the web in the Bible either, oddly.

[Doug]

This reminds me a bit on how Jehovahs Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas because the Bible doesn't mention it (or that was what I heard).

[Tom Wetmore]

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The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. {AH 412.2}

...And EGW read fiction. She read, and recommended Pilgrim's Progress, clearly and without question a work of fiction.

And one must assume that she read another great literary work of fiction, Milton's Paradise Lost, judging by the number of copies of it in her library and the distinct allusions and reliance on that in her own writing.

[Sulla]

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Ellen White did talk about the use of Drama when she said we should employ new methods of evangelism.

How in the world does this say drama is ok?

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The Bible does not mention Pathfinders ... should we disband them?

Growing back then was pathfinders:)

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And finally ... I believe quite the contrary ... I think that the churches that use Drama ARE growing and are more Godly. Can you prove otherwise?

Wow really? Most protestant churches are now stagnent in growth. In Europe where they always used more drama the number of Christians is in free fall and the churches are in trouble. Because the top of many churches are now so liberal as to have openly gay pasters and priests you are seeing churches split. For example the Episcopal Church and the Anglican church. These churches are also all moving closer to the Catholic church. In the US and Europe where these things have been practiced the most morals are in steep decline. In the US for example where the majority still claim to be christians and most say they are spiritual porn is a 14 billion dollar industry. The vast majority of TV and books is filled with sex, murder and every other sin in the Bible. And I could go on but you get the point.

[Sulla]

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Sulla, you can keep trying to force the definition to be super-narrow if you wish, but (a) that's not really the way web forums work - by the nature of the medium the discussion tends to be wide-ranging and ( anyone can win an argument if they're allowed to tightly define all the terms. It's more of a realistic challenge if you follow the argument where it goes.

The problem is if we do not define what drama is then we are using the word in two different ways. So we go around in a circle. And lets be to point here.

[Bravus]

Fair enough, but I already gave you the answer you're looking for 9 pages ago or so: if you take all of EGW literally, then the church should not be using drama. If the discussion is kept 'on topic', there's not much more to be said.

[Neil D]

Fair enough, but I already gave you the answer you're looking for 9 pages ago or so: if you take all of EGW literally, then the church should not be using drama. If the discussion is kept 'on topic', there's not much more to be said.

and then, EGW is a hypocrite. She observed her Grandaughter's SS play and said only things to improve it.

This is assuming that you take her literally.

[Sulla]

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We don't know that it wasn't. Of course they didn't have the technology that we have today. But they may have used small-production plays or little puppet shows. The book of Job and Song of Solomon both read like plays.

What? Pagan countries were having theater dramas with tens of thousands of viewers. The greeks were having theater productions already by the fifth century B.C.. And in Rome it was even bigger. We even still have some of their plays. For example look up Plautus 254–184 BCE. He wrote comedies and musicals etc and both Shakespeare and Molière barrowed from his works. So theater was not something beyond them. The theater was wide spread in the ancient world and very well liked just like it is today. And we have no evidence at all for theater of any size or puppet shows or street performances except by the Pagans.

[Sulla]

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Could the whole book of Hosea be regarded as a (heartbreaking) dramatic production God staged to teach Israel how much he loved her?

Umm no.

[Sulla]

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Um, have you read the Song of Solomon? It is a drama, for retelling, and it is fitting quite well within your definition-

Nope dont think so.

[Sulla]

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And Milton calls the Song of Solomon "A divine pastoral drama"...

I expanded on it to make it more clear. And I do not agree with Milton.

[Sulla]

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Oh, come on! Being narrow minded in the arts is like watching TV verse watching live theater... Drama, thru the TV, is THEATRICAL PERFORMANCES... The difference between live theater and TV is that you are seeing the performance thru the directors eyes....Whereas theater is a live performance, and you can see ALL the characters on stage...totally difference experiences....

I dont think either one is ok.

[Sulla]

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...Which in my mind, Bravus, makes the person attempting to do so, a hypocrite.

BTW, "Hypocrite" in the old greeks sense of the word, was used to DEFINE CHARACTER IN A PLAY. IOWs, he defined the character that he pretended to be, in order to bring out the point of the play. It was NOT in the sense that he became a person whose actions belie stated beliefs nor a person whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. It was in the sense of interpretation of a character.

Has anyone looked for EGW comments on her daughter's SS play? All the comments that she made to avoid theater went out the window when she commented on the play and NEVER CONDEMNED IT. This speaks volumes toward the subject of theater, drama, and TV. God, thru EGW wants us to use our heads, and pick out tasteful and pointed plays that speak to the heart. It is not to sensationalize the play, but to bring an evangelistic tool to the forefront of evangelism...This is what dramatic art is all about....

If you are not going to read the thread why post? I commented on Ellen Whites grandduughters play and also posted some of her comments on it. And you cant back up what you said Ellen Whit had in mind. Its just not what she said.

[Sulla]

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There is also no mention of TV or radio in any of EGW's writings..but that doesn't make it evil. Things can be used for evil or for good.

I no place have said all TV and Radio are evil.

[Neil D]

Sulla, why don't you tell me again, since there were 34 messages when I came back on...

[Taylor]

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Could the whole book of Hosea be regarded as a (heartbreaking) dramatic production God staged to teach Israel how much he loved her?

Umm no.

It was drama that was much more real than any drama here...wow.to have Hosea marry a prostitute...a drama that lasted for years...and yes it was done to teach Israel how much he loved her.