Fiction, Drama, Movies, TV etc.

[Neil D]

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Um, have you read the Song of Solomon? It is a drama, for retelling, and it is fitting quite well within your definition-

Nope dont think so.

Well, since you outright dismiss what others, who have the education, and the spirituality and who have the experience, examine your ideas and don't agree with you, I would tend to believe that this discussion is at an end. Oh, and when I refer to "others", I am not talkning about myself. Just in case you are wondering...

However, I too agree with them...I don't think you don't know what you are talking about....

[Taylor]

Yes drama can be bad but not all drama is bad just like books can be bad but not all books are bad. Just because something wasn't done in the past doesn't make it evil. They didn't have violins in Bible times,but Violins are not evil. On the other hand there are things mentioned in the Bible in a positive way such as dance...and we know that dance can also be negative. (and no I am not promoting dancing...and I can't imagine "dancing before the Lord" as that simply isn't my style but obviously many people in Bible times did just that.) One has to think things through.

[Sulla]

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...And EGW read fiction. She read, and recommended Pilgrim's Progress, clearly and without question a work of fiction.

Pilgrims project is an allegory. Not exactly the same thing as a dramatic novel.

A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The principal subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker, by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject. Allegory is in words that hieroglyphics are in painting. We have a fine example of an allegory in the eightieth Psalm, in which God's chosen people are represented by a vineyard. The distinction in scripture between a parable and an allegory, is said to be that a parable is a supposed history, and an allegory, a figurative description of real facts. An allegory is called a continued metaphor. The following line in Virgil is an example of an allegory. Webster's 1828 Dictionary

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And one must assume that she read another great literary work of fiction, Milton's Paradise Lost, judging by the number of copies of in her library and the distinct allusions and reliance on that in her own writing.

As for her views on Paradise lost we really do not know.

[Taylor]

Exactly Pilgrims Progress is an allegory but it is non-the-less fiction. Hence there is good fiction and bad fiction.

[Sulla]

Bravus

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Fair enough, but I already gave you the answer you're looking for 9 pages ago or so: if you take all of EGW literally, then the church should not be using drama. If the discussion is kept 'on topic', there's not much more to be said.

Bravus this I accept 100% But many others on the threads have tried just to rationlize away all of her comments.

And I dont think you or any one else has given any good evidence that it was ever OK in Bible times.

[Sulla]

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and then, EGW is a hypocrite. She observed her Grandaughter's SS play and said only things to improve it.

This is assuming that you take her literally.

As I mentioned a child dressed up reading a poem is not drama. A child dressed as a ship while a song is being read is not drama. And about this childrens program she said the time and effort would have been used better elsewhere.

[Bravus]

Haven't even tried, because it's a fruitless quest. If things are wrong if they are *not* mentioned in the Bible, then the vast majority of things we do in our current lives are wrong. Proof by absence is logically flawed.

[Sulla]

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Sulla, why don't you tell me again, since there were 34 messages when I came back on...

Haha well every time I leave I come back to find lots of messages. So I just sat down to answer them all in order. So I have read every message. And it seems like it would work better if you read over them then comment

[Bravus]

The Bible is not backward about condemning things that are bad - even down to boiling a kid in its mother's milk. If it is that careful about letting us know what is bad, and it doesn't mention drama at all, might that not logically be evidence that drama is OK?

[Sulla]

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It was drama that was much more real than any drama here...wow.to have Hosea marry a prostitute...a drama that lasted for years...and yes it was done to teach Israel how much he loved her.

Hosea was not drama:)

[Sulla]

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Well, since you outright dismiss what others, who have the education, and the spirituality and who have the experience, examine your ideas and don't agree with you, I would tend to believe that this discussion is at an end. Oh, and when I refer to "others", I am not talkning about myself. Just in case you are wondering...

However, I too agree with them...I don't think you don't know what you are talking about....

I just ask for a little proof. I have seen nothing solid from the Bible, history or Ellen White. The only proofs were ones that were so very tenuous as to be meaningless.

The only one fair enough to admit anything was Bravus on Ellen White:)

[Sulla]

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Yes drama can be bad but not all drama is bad just like books can be bad but not all books are bad. Just because something wasn't done in the past doesn't make it evil. They didn't have violins in Bible times,but Violins are not evil. On the other hand there are things mentioned in the Bible in a positive way such as dance...and we know that dance can also be negative. (and no I am not promoting dancing...and I can't imagine "dancing before the Lord" as that simply isn't my style but obviously many people in Bible times did just that.) One has to think things through.

You are right we have to think things thru. Lets start with your example of Violens. You are correct they did not have them in Bible times. But they did have drama and theater. Playing in huge ampitheaters before huge crowds. And for at least 600 years of overlap with the Bible. So its not exactly the same thing now is it:)

[Sulla]

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Exactly Pilgrims Progress is an allegory but it is non-the-less fiction. Hence there is good fiction and bad fiction.

If you are using fiction in the most general terms. The reason there is a distenction between allegory and fiction is this. An allegory is that in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. For example using a tree to describe a christian. Fiction on the other hand a tleast in our use is something not of this order. For example Bilbo Baggins and his cozy house and love of pipes, food and presents. Or Christmas at Cadillac Jacks a movie with a message or forgiveness but of course just basic fiction in no way an allegory.

[Sulla]

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Haven't even tried, because it's a fruitless quest. If things are wrong if they are *not* mentioned in the Bible, then the vast majority of things we do in our current lives are wrong. Proof by absence is logically flawed.

No I think you try and make this point to strongly. Of course TV was not mentioned it was not invented. But the theater was common. And we have examples of allegory, parables all told by people. But in the 600 years or so we know theater was practiced we never have them using it. And the early church agreed that it was not a christian practice. So its still a valid question. If its such a good tool. And if its so grey of a question if it should be used or not. Whey is there nothing their about it?

And then amazingly the Bible and history line up with Ellen White on this.

[Sulla]

Well seems we are probably to a point in this thread also where no ones minds will be changed. So time to move on. Thanks all for the feedback. :)

[Tom Wetmore]

OK, fiction is basically an imaginary, made up story. That is the word used by EGW for works upon which she cast disapproval. Within and/or closely related in concept are parables and allegories, which obviously she approves. So, what makes one imaginary, made up story OK and the other not?

[Bravus]

Hey Sulla, you missed replying to this one, which I think is exactly the kind of argument you're looking for:

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The Bible is not backward about condemning things that are bad - even down to boiling a kid in its mother's milk. If it is that careful about letting us know what is bad, and it doesn't mention drama at all, might that not logically be evidence that drama is OK?

[Bravus]

Good question, Tom. One that requires discernment.

[Sulla]

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The Bible is not backward about condemning things that are bad - even down to boiling a kid in its mother's milk. If it is that careful about letting us know what is bad, and it doesn't mention drama at all, might that not logically be evidence that drama is OK?

Not really. Think about it in the bigger picture. If for the 600 years or so of overlap this was a respected way of communicating the gospel then it should mention it in some way. Prophet so and so had a play or something someplace but it does not. And then the earlest mentions we do have of it by Christians say its wrong. And Ellen White with direct visions from God says its wrong. So I see a very clear case for it being wrong. And nothing but stretching and twisting of the evidence to make it ok.

[Bravus]

Clearly your mind is made up in such a way that the absence of evidence counts as evidence. But really, all the absence of evidence can be evidence for is the absence of evidence. So the bottom line is that there is no Biblical case at all, just the church fathers and EGW. That may be plenty, but you can't claim it establishes a Biblical case.

[fccool]

Reading at the rigid responses on the thread and the lists of the "approved" films... really reminds me why our churches in US are not growing ... because these treat grown ups like children. It really is ridiculous.

Conference should have no business telling you how to dress, what to wear, watch, eat, whom to date... marry. It's YOUR decision based on YOUR own understanding of the truth. This is the only one you will be judged on.... what you DO with respect on what you KNOW.

Forgive my outrage, but frankly I'm getting a bit tired of people whipping out lists of "disapproved" and quoting someone else without clearly being able to explain why and show some real Biblical bases for their answers.

So, here it is AGAIN. There's plenty of R and X rated material in the Bible and it is there for a reason. There's no need to soften the impact, or avoiding it. Yes, Bible does say dwell on what it good and holy, but I see no indication of forgetting and ignoring what is horrible and evil! There's much to learn from both.

God could have left out the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, but he did not. It was for our benefit when it's all said and done. Some people make it look like a forbidden tree that God does not want us to go to, but if Adam and Eve asked... they would be given answers. God does not mind questions. You don't have to learn from your mistakes if you learn from the mistakes of other.

That's what parables told by Jesus were for. I'm convinced that many of these are made up (fiction), yet these allude to real life situations and people can derive the real-life application from.

I find many Christian stories of today shallow and irrelevant... and self centered in many aspects. Many avoid realities, and push dilutions like... "pay tithe and you will be rich" , "pray more and everything will be ok". This is not the reality, and this is not what Bible teaches. Bible teaches that there is much suffering in this world, and we are here to alleviate suffering for other to show them THE WAY. That's what early Christians were called THE FOLLOWERS OF THE WAY.

There's a scene from film "Magnolia" that really strikes the point home... a kid is talking to a cop using rap rhymes and tells him who the killer is, but the cop just ignores the kid because he does not like the language. I love that film. It has much to say about our society today... Christians and non-Christians alike. It's funny that many Christians take similar attitude while watching the film... they miss the great points because they are caught up in being offended because of the couple uncomfortable realities portrayed... and ironically they end up dwelling on the negative said rather than positive.

[Dr. Shane]

Reading at the rigid responses on the thread and the lists of the "approved" films... really reminds me why our churches in US are not growing ... because these treat grown ups like children. It really is ridiculous.

Actually, the North American Church is quite "liberal" compared to the church in Latin American, Africa and Asia. The church is growing faster than we can build buildings for them in areas where it is very strict and rigid.

[Neil D]

fccool,

great post....

[Woody]

Quote:

Haven't even tried, because it's a fruitless quest. If things are wrong if they are *not* mentioned in the Bible, then the vast majority of things we do in our current lives are wrong. Proof by absence is logically flawed.

No I think you try and make this point to strongly. Of course TV was not mentioned it was not invented. But the theater was common. And we have examples of allegory, parables all told by people. But in the 600 years or so we know theater was practiced we never have them using it. And the early church agreed that it was not a christian practice. So its still a valid question. If its such a good tool. And if its so grey of a question if it should be used or not. Whey is there nothing their about it?

And then amazingly the Bible and history line up with Ellen White on this.

Yes. Theaters were common even in Ellen White's time. And Ellen White attended theaters.

[Woody]

Well seems we are probably to a point in this thread also where no ones minds will be changed. So time to move on. Thanks all for the feedback.

So, was the purpose of this thread to change our minds?