Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 But Jesus does not find us as slaves to sin and then leave us in that condition. True, but that doesn't mean we are free of sin as Gerry implied! Quote: Jesus saves His people from sin, not in sin. Matt. 1: 21. Like Gerry you are misusing that quote. Quote: Look at Romans 6: 6-- "... our old man was crucified with Him... that we should no longer be slaves of sin." "was crucified"! When did Christ die? 2000 years ago! That's when our humanity from Adam died in Him. We were set free from sin "in Him". So you are misapplying this verse also.... Rob So the "old man" lives!!!!!!!!!!! Living in sin and slavery!!!!!!!!
Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Quote: Gal 3:12 "The law is not based on faith" In the NT love for God is realized by faith in Him. The law, says Paul, is not about faith - it's about performance. Hence, 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The one who does them [keeps the whole of the law] shall live by them." BUT......"the righteous shall live by faith." "Holy Joe"
Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Quote: And growth is...........? "Holy Joe" Is in harmony with "agape". Rob And harmony with agape is......?
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Quote: Look at Romans 6: 6-- "... our old man was crucified with Him... that we should no longer be slaves of sin." "was crucified"! When did Christ die? 2000 years ago! That's when our humanity from Adam died in Him. We were set free from sin "in Him". So you are misapplying this verse also.... It's true that Christ was crucified 2,000 years ago, of course. But my freedom from sin did not occur at that time. The freedom from sin for each person was a potential when Christ died, and even before, from the time of God's original promise of the Messiah. However, I didn't become free from sin until I accepted God's gift and it was made applicable in my personal life. No where in the NT does Paul or Peter say "You were set free from your sins when Christ died on the cross." We die to sin by our choice of accepting Jesus Christ. That is when I died to sin. I wasn't dead to sin before that time. I was living in sin. I wasn't dead to it. I loved doing it. Most people never do die to sin, even many who claim to be followers of Christ have never died to sin. What does it mean to "die to sin" or be dead to sin? The proof that this is the correct understanding of it is found in Romans 6: 17-22, where it plainly says that we were once slaves of sin but have been set free and have become slaves of righteousness. I was not a slave of righteousness and a slave of God 5 years ago. I was a slave of sin and of Satan at that time. So those verses are not speaking of something that happened before I was even born. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition as man's best service, and He makes up the deficiency with His own divine merit. That's Roman Catholicism!
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Jesus had just made a statement that, "whoever commits sin is a slave to sin." And you were born in sin and hence "all have sinned" and, therefore, you are a slave to sin (the love of self). Yes, if you aren't a legalist you are growing, but still there is in your life is that "bent to self". So your aren't completely free, now are you Gerry? Hence John's warning: "If we say we have no sin...." Comprehend?
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 So the "old man" lives!!!!!!!!!!! Living in sin and slavery!!!!!!!! The new man is experiencing growth in Christ, yet the "old man" is still alive and well. The day all self-seeking and self-love is removed from your life that day your "old man" is dead! Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin [the old man], we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [i.e., when freed from the taint of sin] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge. The Signs of the Times 06-09-81
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 BUT......"the righteous shall live by faith." "The just by faith shall live" You are just by faith because "in Christ" you stand perfect before God's law. You "shall live" because you are justified by faith.
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 And harmony with agape is......? Please don't go to the limited law - 10 brief rules that was never given to understand all sin. Jesus came to magnify the law. His life answers the whole law, especially its spirit. Look at His agape love and that is the fulfillment of the whole law. You see Gerry, you look at the letter of the law (10 brief rules) and say to yourself, "Self, you do a pretty good job" - but there's much, much more to the law. The law is spiritual...meaning, anything that smacks of "self" is sin. That's because "Agape" has no "self" in it!
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Quote: Look at Romans 6: 6-- "... our old man was crucified with Him... that we should no longer be slaves of sin." "was crucified"! When did Christ die? 2000 years ago! That's when our humanity from Adam died in Him. We were set free from sin "in Him". So you are misapplying this verse also.... It's true that Christ was crucified 2,000 years ago, of course. But my freedom from sin did not occur at that time. Then you are lost because if you are going to depend on your experience to be saved from all sin, you'll never make it. The problem, John, is you don't understand the gospel. Rob
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Jesus had just made a statement that, "whoever commits sin is a slave to sin." And you were born in sin and hence "all have sinned" and, therefore, you are a slave to sin (the love of self). Don't you agree that not all who have sinned or who were slaves of sin continue to be slaves of sin? Every man except Christ has continued to fall short but that is not the same as sinning. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 So those verses are not speaking of something that happened before I was even born. And that's why you don't understand the gospel and why the SDA church needs to restore it and present it to the world. Pastors like Jack S. are doing just that.... Your humanity comes from Adam, after the fall. Since you share his life you stand condemned the minute you are conceived. The moment you come out of Adam as an individual the law says you must die. Why? Because God doesn't see us as individuals...that's a western concept. God's either sees us "in Adam" or "in Christ". If you remain "in Adam" you will die. If you accept your position "in Christ" you shall live. The two Adams
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 But my freedom from sin did not occur at that time. Solidarity So the question is, “How did God save mankind?” How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] who believe in Jesus and yet maintain the integrity of his holy law which condemns the sinner? Does he bypass the law? God cannot say, “I am sovereign and, therefore, I don’t have to keep my own law. Since I love this rebellious, sinful human race unconditionally I will take them to heaven.” God cannot do that, because he is always true to himself. So the answer to the problem is the “in Christ” idea. The expression “in Christ” is a rather difficult phrase to understand just as “you must be born again” was difficult for Nicodemus. “‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’” [John 3:4]. Likewise, the concept of “in Christ” is a difficult idea for us to understand. This is especially true of the Western mind, because in the Western world we think in terms of individuals, whereas the “in Christ” idea is based on what is known as biblical solidarity — the many in one. To help us understand what the term means, we will look at two examples in the Bible, which will also help us understand what God is saying in Ephesians 2. The first example is found in the book of Romans. Quoting from the Old Testament, the apostle Paul is addressing Jewish believers at Rome. God is speaking to Rebekah, the wife of Isaac: “She was told, ‘The older will serve the younger’” [Romans 9:12]. God was talking in “solidarity” language. When he used the word “older,” he was not referring to Esau, but to the Edomites, who were descendants of Esau. When he used the word “younger,” he was not talking of Jacob the individual, but of the Israelites, who were the descendants of Jacob [see Genesis 25:21-23]. It is true that the Edomites, Esau’s descendants, did serve the Israelites, Jacob’s descendants. That is solidarity. Another example in the New Testament that is helpful in understanding what Paul means by the phrase “in Christ” is in Hebrews 5-8. Paul is trying to convince the Jewish Christians that Christ, as their High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, is far superior to the Levitical priest of Judaism. These Jewish Christians were in constant danger of giving up Christ and returning to Judaism. So Paul told them, To give up Christ as your High Priest and to go back to Levi as your priest is a step backward. Don’t give up reality for a substitute. But to convince them not to give up their faith in Christ as their High Priest, Paul had to prove that Christ, as the believer’s great High Priest, is superior to the Levitical priesthood of the earthly sanctuary that was practiced in Old Testament times. How did he do it? 1. Christ could not belong to the Levitical priesthood because, according to the law of Moses, he had to be a descendant of Levi. Christ was born under the tribe of Judah. Both Joseph and Mary were of the tribe of Judah, so Christ is said to be the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek [Hebrews 7:7-10], a priest who existed in the time of Abraham [Hebrews 6:20]. 2. Having established this fact, Paul then explained that Melchizedek was superior to Levi. The proof he gave was that Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek [Hebrews 7:10]. However, if you read the Old Testament, Levi, as an individual, never paid tithe to Melchizedek. It was Abraham who paid that tithe. The explanation is that even though Levi, the great grandson of Abraham, did not exist when Abraham met Melchizedek, he was in the loins of his father, therefore Levi was implicated in paying tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham. Because you and I were in Adam when he sinned, we therefore suffered the consequences of his sin. Likewise, at the incarnation, God took the corporate life of the human race to which we belong and which needs to be redeemed, and, in the womb of Mary, God united the human race and the divine life of Christ so, when Christ was born into this world, he was both God and man. The human aspect of Christ was really the corporate life of the human race whom he came to redeem. That is why Jesus is called the second or last Adam (mankind) [1 Corinthians 15:45].
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Every man except Christ has continued to fall short but that is not the same as sinning. Then you misunderstand what it means to "fall short". If you commit adultery, as David did, you slipped...you messed up because before you weren't doing that. You did something outside your normal walk....but, what you fail to understand is that there's still self-love & self-seeking in your life and when you compare those sins to the spirit of God's law you are never measuring up. That's what Paul had in mind in Romans 3:23! "All have sinned (in Adam) and (present continuous tense) fall short of the glory of God (the glory of God being his agape love)"
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition as man's best service, and He makes up the deficiency with His own divine merit. That's Roman Catholicism! Show a Catholic statement of their belief that parallel's Ellen White statement. You will see that they are actually not saying the same thing. Remember that error often does look very much like the truth. Also consider the fact that Roman Catholic doctrine still contains some truth. But what the devil does is take the truth and twist it just enough to lead people into error. That is not what Ellen White did in making the statement. Where does the Bible contradict what Ellen White has said here? Quote: Jesus Makes Up for Our Deficiency There is no excuse for sin or for indolence. Jesus has led the way, and He wishes us to follow in His steps. He has suffered, He has sacrificed as none of us can, that He might bring salvation within our reach. We need not be discouraged. Jesus came to our world to bring divine power to man, that through His grace, we might be transformed into His likeness. When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24). Faith and Works (1979), page 49, 50 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Don't you agree that not all who have sinned or who were slaves of sin continue to be slaves of sin? If you weren't a slave you would be without sin. Christ never sinned so He never knew the addiction of the love of self. He was tempted, but He never was addicted. You are born an addict - you are conceived in "iniquity" and hence you are born bent-to-self. That's why Ellen said: We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light [His agape love] from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28] You can do the right thing outwardly, but if it has "self" in it (if anything you did comes back to glorify you...to benefit you) you are sinning. Wow...!
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert That's Roman Catholicism! [/quote'] Show a Catholic statement of their belief that parallel's Ellen White statement. You will see that they are actually not saying the same thing. You need to remember that EGW wasn't infallible. Remember? Therefore she will have her off days, now won't she? I do my best (20%) and Christ makes up the difference (80%). Like I said, Romans Catholicism.
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Don't you agree that not all who have sinned or who were slaves of sin continue to be slaves of sin? If you weren't a slave you would be without sin. Are you saying, then, that everyone must remain a slave of sin until the Second Coming? That means Paul and John the Baptist and Enoch were all slaves of sin? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Show a Catholic statement of their belief that parallel's Ellen White statement. You will see that they are actually not saying the same thing. You need to remember that EGW wasn't infallible. Remember? Therefore she will have her off days, now won't she? I do my best (20%) and Christ makes up the difference (80%). Like I said, Romans Catholicism. She had a lot of off days, according to you, and all of them happened to be on days when she wrote things you find unacceptable. Where does the Bible contradict Ellen White's statement? I don't know if you study the beliefs of other churches such as the Roman Catholic Church, but when you study their catechisms about soteriology, you will find a great deal of truth. A person can be saved in the Catholic Church. They do teach a lot of false doctrine but there is enough truth there that if a person is seeking after God and salvation, God can reach them through what they will hear and read in that church. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Stan Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 soooo has anyone noticed the title of this thread? If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Moderators John317 Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Yes, they got on this topic during the Superbowl and haven't gotten off it ever since. We ought to take it to a different thread, I s'pose. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Stan Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 so it is not just me ? If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo And harmony with agape is......? Please don't go to the limited law - 10 brief rules that was never given to understand all sin. Jesus came to magnify the law. His life answers the whole law, especially its spirit. Look at His agape love and that is the fulfillment of the whole law. You see Gerry, you look at the letter of the law (10 brief rules) and say to yourself, "Self, you do a pretty good job" - but there's much, much more to the law. The law is spiritual...meaning, anything that smacks of "self" is sin. That's because "Agape" has no "self" in it! Faithful in little, faithful in much! It's the little foxes that ruin the vine. If a person can't obey one, how is he going to obey 10? If he is totally oblivious to the letter of the law, how is he going to pay attention to the spirit of the law? One can mouth off agape all he wants, it won't amount to a hill of dung if he continues to cheat on his tax, cheat his neighbor, cheat the God he professes to believe in, etc. etc. My last comment on this thread.
Neil D Posted February 14, 2009 Author Posted February 14, 2009 Yes, they got on this topic during the Superbowl and haven't gotten off it ever since. We ought to take it to a different thread, I s'pose. I was about to say, guys, that this thread shoulda ENDED about 18 pages ago..... teehe Which only goes to show, Adventists are all Respiratory Therapists by nature...Loooooooooooong Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinded and full of hot air... Ok, guys,...can we wrap this up and make our LAST POINT and let the other guy have the last word????? Pleeeeease?? Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert If you weren't a slave you would be without sin. Are you saying' date=' then, that everyone must remain a slave of sin until the Second Coming? That means Paul and John the Baptist and Enoch were all slaves of sin? [/quote'] Are you free of the love of self & self-seeking, or (as EGW states), do you have "that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth"? [DA 439] And again, please keep in mind that "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] Have you reached this state?
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