Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. Patriarchs and Prophets (1890), page 409, Here is where EGW is in 100% error. Under the OC the law demands the death of anyone who failed to keep it, period. That's why the man died of gathering fire-wood. Just like the son who ran his mouth off at his mom and dad. The problem with EGW's statement above is that she places sinful, human attributes onto God. God gets mad because someone has contempt for His Sabbath and strikes them dead. How childish and egocentric. "I'm God, now love me and do as I say or I kill you." Sick!!!! Rob
Moderators John317 Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Hebrews 10: 26 shows the difference plainly between willful sins and those which are not willful. Untrue. That chapter is dealing with the sin of the rejection of Christ. It's about the sin of unbelief. Yes, and it is "deliberate" and "willful." Certainly you do not believe that whether something is done deliberately or ignorantly makes no difference, do you? Would this work, then?--- "If we sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? Obviously, as it reads there, it would contradict 1 John 1: 9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." Hebrews 10: 26 shows plainly there is a difference between a willful sin and sins that are not willful. It is talking about willfully rejecting Christ. If there is no difference, shall we say that any rejection of Christ, whether from ignorance or weakness, leads to having no more sacrifice for sins? Obviously the word "willful" is key in that verse. Other Scriptures that make the same point are 1 John 3: 1-10 and Romans 6, where it compares those who practice sin and unrighteousness and those who practice righteousness. Romans 6: 12-14, 18 compares those who let sin reign in their bodies or in their lives and those whose members (bodies) are slaves to righteousness, obeying what is right. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Yes, and it is "deliberate" and "willful." But John, it's not referring to "transgression of the law". IF you reject Christ you will be found "under the law" and "under law" you will be found wanting no matter how righteous one thinks himself to be.
Moderators John317 Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Yes, and it is "deliberate" and "willful." But John, it's not referring to "transgression of the law". IF you reject Christ you will be found "under the law" and "under law" you will be found wanting no matter how righteous one thinks himself to be. How is rejection of Christ NOT a transgression of the law? The most essential principle of the law of God is that we are to love God with all of our heart and mind. We are not loving the Lord the way we're commanded to if we reject the Messiah sent of God. Therefore it is transgressing God's law to reject Christ. But is there any way a person can reject Christ apart from a deliberate, willful choice? Does rejection of Christ always require a person to say, "OK, today I am going to reject Christ?" Or can rejection of Christ be a gradual, almost unconscious slip into the abyss, that happens over a period of time, a process that results from many "little," wrong choices? A person may find himself at the end of his life having rejected Christ but be hard put to explain exactly how he came to that point. He may still "intellectually" believe that Christ was a good man and that He existed, but for all intents and purposes, as far as his personal life is concerned, Christ does not exist for that individual. And that is after he may have accepted Christ when he was in his teens or in his early twenties. He is lost, yet he never made a deliberate choice to reject Christ. In other words, he never said to himself, "I know that the effect of my actions is to reject Christ." He never intended to reject Christ but that is what he has done. It's what it all adds up to. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 That's actually a good point. If God has the power to stop us from sins we know about, why not the ones we don't know about too? God rarely stops us from doing the things we WILL to do. Reflexive/knee-jerk sins that bypass the will, I don't see how a gracious God can keep the believer out of heaven because of it. Yeah, yeah, I know Robert says the law gives no credits. But as a means for salvation, Paul says, we are not under law but under grace. Those reflexive/knee-jerk sins are not where the action is. It is in those things the will decides to do. Furthermore, it is God's will that we do not shed this sinful body until, "at the twinkling of an eye" we shall receive the body that is like His.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Every single Christian who ever gave their heart to God ... started this process. Rather elementary. But I would not want their behaviour in Heaven. That is why we have to be changed before we enter the gates. Red, if you truly believed what you have just said, how then can you claim that a believer will be sinning deliberately/willfully/intentionally until Jesus comes? To me, that smacks of a god too powerless and too small. Never said those words. That is your fabrication not mine. Have to admit that it does get boring seeing that accusation. But, I assumed you were having fun with it so have not said much before. Now ... if you were interested in being accurate and quoted me in context ... that would be different. But, have your fun. If you want to paint me as a fabricator and a false witness, be my guest. I know what you have said. You have made no distinctions between willful/deliberate sins from unintentional ones. You have said that all sins are willful, and that you will keep on sinning till Jesus comes, at which time you will be changed. I am not going to waste a lot of previous time to go back to all the threads to dig up what you said. If you have changed your mind, well and good.
Woody Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Gerry. The danger of telling people what they believe is that when you do so ... you put your spin on it and change the context and content when you reword it. When you do this you exaggerate and contort the view of the author. Best to just ask. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 How is rejection of Christ NOT a transgression of the law? The most essential principle of the law of God is that we are to love God with all of our heart and mind. We are not loving the Lord the way we're commanded to if we reject the Messiah sent of God. Therefore it is transgressing God's law to reject Christ. Gal 3:12 "The law is not based on faith" In the NT love for God is realized by faith in Him. The law, says Paul, is not about faith - it's about performance. Hence, 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The one who does them [keeps the whole of the law] shall live by them."
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: Bravus That's actually a good point. If God has the power to stop us from sins we know about, why not the ones we don't know about too? God rarely stops us from doing the things we WILL to do. Reflexive/knee-jerk sins that bypass the will, I don't see how a gracious God can keep the believer out of heaven because of it. The only legal way was to deliver us from "under law". If you are under law it doesn't care why you sin because it will condemn you. As to "Reflexive/knee-jerk sins" it's ironic that Jesus never sinned not even by a thought, much less by accident. Yes?
Woody Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Quote: As to "Reflexive/knee-jerk sins" it's ironic that Jesus never sinned not even by a thought, much less by accident. Yes? Very Good Rob .... Very Good. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Moderators Gerr Posted February 12, 2009 Moderators Posted February 12, 2009 He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and therefore did not have genes similar to mine. And to be delivered from under law is to be delivered from obedience to it?
Moderators Gerr Posted February 12, 2009 Moderators Posted February 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 How is rejection of Christ NOT a transgression of the law? The most essential principle of the law of God is that we are to love God with all of our heart and mind. We are not loving the Lord the way we're commanded to if we reject the Messiah sent of God. Therefore it is transgressing God's law to reject Christ. Gal 3:12 "The law is not based on faith" In the NT love for God is realized by faith in Him. The law, says Paul, is not about faith - it's about performance. Hence, 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The one who does them [keeps the whole of the law] shall live by them." Did you conveniently omit the verses preceding 3:12? It says: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall loive by them' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..." Paul is contrasting the person who is trying to gain salvation on his own by obeying the law from the believer who lives by faith. Nowhere does he say that believers are released from obedience to God's law, i.e. the 10c. Paul plainly says that Christ redeems us from the curse of the law, not from obedience. From Genesis to Revelation, the plea is for obedience! "By faith Abraham obeyed....", NOT "by faith Abraham did nothing..." "By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice..." NOT "by faith Abel offered nothing..." "By faith Noah...in reverent fear constructed an ark..." NOT "by faith Noah did not lift a hammer..."
Robert Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and therefore did not have genes similar to mine.
Robert Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Paul plainly says that Christ redeems us from the curse of the law, not from obedience. From Genesis to Revelation, the plea is for obedience! Ah, but since you are failing to measure up to the highest demands of God's law you come back under it's curse. Under law you must obey, period. If you fail, even in one point, you've had it. Gerry you live a tangled life of failure and condemnation because you live under the law. It's a cycle of perpetual condemnation. No thanks! Rob
Woody Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I have a theory. Those that have the most failure have the most conservative view ... that you must be perfectly obedient. Love is freeing. It frees you to obey. When you have the love and assurance of salvation ... it frees you to obey. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Robert Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 When you have the love and assurance of salvation ... it frees you to obey. I agree....When you understand God's agape towards you and understand the gospel of Christ, which gives you the assurance of salvation, this frees you to grow.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Posted February 13, 2009 I have a theory. Those that have the most failure have the most conservative view ... that you must be perfectly obedient. Love is freeing. It frees you to obey. When you have the love and assurance of salvation ... it frees you to obey. Yep, that's what salvation has done for me. Set me free to obey. Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. the slave does NOT remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." Jn 8:34-36 ESV. Not free to sin, but free from the slavery of sin. Do you believe that? "Holy Joe"
Moderators Gerr Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Posted February 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood When you have the love and assurance of salvation ... it frees you to obey. I agree....When you understand God's agape towards you and understand the gospel of Christ, which gives you the assurance of salvation, this frees you to grow. And growth is...........? "Holy Joe"
Moderators Gerr Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Posted February 13, 2009 This is the point I have long been trying to make. The statements from Ellen White do not specify the restrictions of 'known' sins that Gerry makes. She says ... there is no excuse period. For when we know God as is our privilege to know Him ... WE WILL NOT SIN. It is willful sin ... if we do not avail ourselves to the privilege to know Him as He is. If we get to know Him ... we will not sin period. The ones who push this 'willful' stuff ... are just looking for an excuse for their sins and neglect to know God as is our privilege to know Him. But the Bible does!
Robert Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert I agree....When you understand God's agape towards you and understand the gospel of Christ' date=' which gives you the assurance of salvation, this frees you to grow. [/quote'] And growth is...........? "Holy Joe" Is in harmony with "agape". Rob
Robert Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. the slave does NOT remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." Jn 8:34-36 ESV. Not free to sin, but free from the slavery of sin. Do you believe that? Here's the context: "You [i.e., you Pharisees] are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."....31 To the Jews who had believed in him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth [i.e., Jesus is the truth, the light and the way] will set you free." 33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" 34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin [and all have sinned]. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. So in regard to the context "free" doesn't mean free from sin (as in sinning), but rather free from "the wages of sin" (eternal death). Because of "the truth" (Jesus) we stand just before God's law "in Christ". John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. Rob
Moderators John317 Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Posted February 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. the slave does NOT remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." Jn 8:34-36 ESV. Not free to sin, but free from the slavery of sin. Do you believe that? So in regard to the context "free" doesn't mean free from sin (as in sinning), but rather free from "the wages of sin" (eternal death). Because of "the truth" (Jesus) we stand just before God's law "in Christ". 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. But Jesus does not find us as slaves to sin and then leave us in that condition. Jesus saves His people from sin, not in sin. Matt. 1: 21. Look at Romans 6: 6-- "... our old man was crucified with Him... that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6: 11-- We are consider ourselves to be dead (unresponsive) indeed to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore are are not to let sin reign or rule in our mortal body, that we would obey it in its sinful desires. Romans 6: 14-- sin shall not have dominion over you, because you not under law but under grace. Romans 6: 17, 18-- We used to be slaves of sin but now we have become obedient from the heart to the doctrines to which we are committed. AND HAVING BEEN SET FROM FROM SIN, WE HAVE BECOME SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Romans 6: 22-- Now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Also read vv. 20-23. We can thank God that Jesus really does set us free from sin so that we can obey God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 But Jesus does not find us as slaves to sin and then leave us in that condition.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Paul plainly says that Christ redeems us from the curse of the law, not from obedience. From Genesis to Revelation, the plea is for obedience! Ah, but since you are failing to measure up to the highest demands of God's law you come back under it's curse. Under law you must obey, period. If you fail, even in one point, you've had it. Gerry you live a tangled life of failure and condemnation because you live under the law. It's a cycle of perpetual condemnation. No thanks! Rob Hmmmm. No matter how wrong you are, you continue to make assumptions about others? You assume that because I believe in obedience, I therefore live a miserable life. So miserable that if you lived it, you'd have to shoot yourself. You assume that because I believe in obedience, I must be living a "tangled life of failure and condemnation," under a "cycle of perpetual condemnation." Nothing could be farther from the truth! It has been my experience that when I make too many assumptions, I often make the first part of "assume" out of myself. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." ""When the Son sets you free, YOU WILL BE FREE INDEED!" "You will call His name Jesus, for HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM their sins." "No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning." "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he CANNOT keep on sinning because he has been born of God." "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And His commandments are NOT burdensome." "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition as man's best service, and He makes up the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." Now, either those statements are true or not. I know God cannot possibly lie. So they must be true. "Holy Joe"
Moderators Gerr Posted February 14, 2009 Moderators Posted February 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. the slave does NOT remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." Jn 8:34-36 ESV. Not free to sin, but free from the slavery of sin. Do you believe that? Here's the context: "You [i.e., you Pharisees] are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."....31 To the Jews who had believed in him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth [i.e., Jesus is the truth, the light and the way] will set you free." 33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" 34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin [and all have sinned]. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. So in regard to the context "free" doesn't mean free from sin (as in sinning), but rather free from "the wages of sin" (eternal death). Because of "the truth" (Jesus) we stand just before God's law "in Christ". John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. Rob Eisegesis par excellence! Jesus had just made a statement that, "whoever commits sin is a slave to sin." And then He makes a promise, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." And you are saying that's not what He meant because He cannot do that?! He can only saves you from the penalty. Rob, your god is too small. Your Jesus is too effete. Neither worthy of worship. I've said enough. Now answer what Bravus asked 2 pages ago. "Holy Joe"
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