DON'T YOU GUYS KNOW THAT THERE IS A SUPERBOWL ON?

[Robert]

IF the SDA is going to present the law as "binding", well, let it go all the way! Let it step on all those toes...especially the football kind.

Rob

[John317]

IF the SDA is going to present the law as "binding", well, let it go all the way! Let it step on all those toes...especially the football kind.

The law of God is not "binding" in the sense that it's something people do in order to earn justification or salvation. It's "binding" because obeying God's law is what people do more and more as the Holy Spirit lives and directs in their lives. The process is described in 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

As for watching football, the text which says, "whatsoever is not of faith," seems to apply. I think that if a person feels it is wrong to watch it, they definitely shouldn't watch it.

But like we've talked about before, the Holy Spirit is not convicting everyone of the same sins at the same time. I wouldn't say you are wrong about watching football being a sin, but not everyone is convicted of it. People grow spiritually at different rates. Maybe you are just much more spiritually mature than some others.

[Bravus]

Not an opposition to your well thought out post here, John317, but a thought sparked by it:

Does it ever seem to anyone as though, as we get more and more sanctified, we do less and less? We stop drinking alcohol, eating shrimp, watching footy, etc., etc...

Doesn't it seem as though, if we're growing spiritually, our lives would be getting more abundant?

(don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying the things listed above constitute an abundant life, far from it - just making the point that we seem to put more energy into the 'don't's than the 'do's)

[John317]

Does it ever seem to anyone as though, as we get more and more sanctified, we do less and less? We stop drinking alcohol, eating shrimp, watching footy, etc., etc...

Doesn't it seem as though, if we're growing spiritually, our lives would be getting more abundant?

(don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying the things listed above constitute an abundant life, far from it - just making the point that we seem to put more energy into the 'don't's than the 'do's)

Yeah, I know-- I have thought about that, too, before.

And my life is much more abundant now than it was, believe me. I can't tell you how many hours I wasted doing terrible things-- hours in xxx rated places.

I just wanted my satisfaction.

I honestly don't miss those times. It was an addiction. I couldn't control my urges. God has given me back my freedom to do what I really want to do, and I am no longer doing things because I feel this unstoppable craving.

I have much more time for doing the creative things, such as writing and photography, etc.

I guess you get the picture.

But you are right that for many, the Christian life can be a kind of boxing in rather than a more abundant life, which it should be.

For me it is more of a life of giving to others rather than just thinking what I can do to satisfy my own urges and desires.

[Robert]

...the Holy Spirit is not convicting everyone of the same sins at the same time. I wouldn't say you are wrong about watching football being a sin, but not everyone is convicted of it.

So while some might not see the "iniquity" in football, some not not see the selfishness in stealing? In other words Madoff (assuming he is born again) might not be convinced by the HS that his ponzi schemes were sin. He can simply say, "I'm not convicted of that sin!"

As to being convinced of sin, well, what does that mean? Does the HS have to convince or can one just look to the law?

The problem is our definition of the law. Take "you shall not covet". Most SDA limit this sin to desiring the goods of someone else, but both Paul & James links it to "self-seeking". A good example of this is found in James 4:1-3

1 What causes competition and contention among you? Aren't they caused by the selfish desires within you that fight to control you? 2 You covet what you don't have, so you commit murder.

Notice that the ultimate fruit of competition (the lust to be # 1) ends in murder. That's the worst scenario! So this fits in with the typical view of coveting - i.e., desiring someone's stuff, looks, riches, status in life. But the Bible goes beyond this basic definition:

You're determined to have things, but you can't get what you want. You quarrel and fight. You don't have the things you desire, because you don't pray for them.

3 When you pray for things, you don't get them because [size:17pt]you want them for the wrong motives - for your own pleasure.

Wow! Did you get that? What did Paul say? "Love...is not self-seeking". And John says, "Love fulfills the law". In other words you can keep the letter of the law, but without agape, it is meaningless. Hence to James coveting is desiring anything for you own purpose. You desire that PhD, why? so you can have nice things.

So the education isn't sin, but what you do with that PhD is another thing. If it is for self-centered reasons (and I can tell you that's how the world sells education) then it is based in iniquity.

After all, Jack stated the same:

"Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — ..., education,...sports, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self (pride, selfishness, self-seeking), even though at times this principle may not be obvious."

It's only not obvious to those who reduce God's law down to only the letter of law instead of understanding the spirit of the law. This Adventism has been doing for over 150 years.

Rob

[Robert]

-BC- Ed

-TI- Education

-CN- 25

-CT- Education and Character

-PR- 04

-PG- 225

At such a time as this, what is the trend of the education given? [this was over 100 years ago] To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking. Much of the education given is a perversion of the name. In true education the selfish ambition, the greed for power, the disregard for the rights and needs of humanity, that are the curse of our world, find a counterinfluence. God’s plan of life has a place for every human being. Each is to improve his talents to the utmost; and faithfulness in doing this, be the gifts few or many, entitles one to honor. In God’s plan there is no place for selfish rivalry [competition]. Those who measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves among themselves, are not wise....But how widely different is much of the education now given! [again, over 100 years ago] From the child’s earliest years it is an appeal to emulation and rivalry; it fosters selfishness, the root of all evil.

[Robert]

More on education as tied to the world:

"There is an education which is essentially worldly. Its aim is success in the world, the gratification of selfish ambition”

“Without the vital principles of true religion, without knowledge of how to serve and glorify the Redeemer, education is more harmful than beneficial.”

"Those who have been actuated by selfishness and human ambition, who have been striving to be greatest, who have been self-important, who have felt above confessing mistakes and errors, will have no place in the kingdom of God.”

Note the principle of "the love of self"! Educational competition is a blight to the world. It's striving to see who is the greatest.

[Robert]

So far I have equated the principle behind football and most educational systems with iniquity. I did this not to place folks under law, but for all to see that they are indeed coming up short. That's the function of the law (what we call the OC). It drives folks to Christ as their only refuge. Outside Christ is condemnation. No one is measuring up....All of us, in some way, are self-centered - egocentric and proud. Indeed we have all turned to our own way. We are bent to self. Now you can chill!

Rob

[Liz]

Now you can chill!

This is funny seeing's as how you are the one who brought it up.

And perhaps you brought it up because, for some odd reason, you didn't feel invited to our online superbowl party? So let me be the first to invite you to our Superbowl party that we will have next year. You can even bring the popcorn, o.k.?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Now you can chill!

This is funny seeing's as how you are the one who brought it up.

And perhaps you brought it up because, for some odd reason, you didn't feel invited to our online superbowl party? So let me be the first to invite you to our Superbowl party that we will have next year. You can even bring the popcorn, o.k.?

No, some folks got upset...they misunderstood my point and now, hopefully, they can chill.

As to popcorn, I'm allergic to it. Thanks anyway.

Rob

[Woody]

Rob. You are certainly a 'party pooper' in more ways than one.

But we love you anyways.

[Bravus]

Rob, you *still* haven't addressed the issue I raised, but I'm happy to chill.

[phkrause]

I know I'm chilling already!

pk

[Robert]

Rob, you *still* haven't addressed the issue I raised....

Yes?

[Gerr]

So far I have equated the principle behind football and most educational systems with iniquity. I did this not to place folks under law, but for all to see that they are indeed coming up short. That's the function of the law (what we call the OC). It drives folks to Christ as their only refuge. Outside Christ is condemnation. No one is measuring up....All of us, in some way, are self-centered - egocentric and proud. Indeed we have all turned to our own way. We are bent to self. Now you can chill!

Rob

To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Tit 1:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

To a person whose heart is unregenerate, nothing is pure. To the person God has cleansed from within, mere things become irrelevant.

Richards, L. O. (1991; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). The Bible readers companion (electronic ed.) (847). Wheaton: Victor Books.

Holy Joe

[Bravus]

The issue I raised, Rob, is 'if *everything' is tainted by self, how do we decide what to do and what not to do?'

[Robert]

To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Tit 1:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Holy Joe

Oh, I get it, since I see nothing good in human nature and since I see that even believers are falling short of the glory of God (His agape) I am a degenerate? Then I must assume that so was John, Paul and Jesus:

"There is none good but one, that is, God" [Jesus]

"If we claim that we're free of sin [iniquity], we're only fooling ourselves. A claim like that is errant nonsense." [John]

"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one'" [Paul]

Let's look at Daniel's and Paul's lives with respect to God's agape:

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory [both Paul & EGW define "the glory" as God's self-emptying agape] surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, “There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ’s righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ.

Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

So we can hate our selfishness and self-love; we can even strive to be "less self-seeking" (as EGW stated), but none of that matters because as far as the spirit of God's law is concerned we aren't pure. Only "in Christ" are we perfect.

Rob

[Robert]

The issue I raised, Rob, is 'if *everything' is tainted by self, how do we decide what to do and what not to do?'

My point in attacking football and worldly education is to get folks to give up on their righteousness and by faith accept the righteousness of Christ. The problem is we tend to forget how self-centered we are and therefore we tend to have a favorable view of ourselves. But the spirit of God's law will not allow that.

The law is perfect in converting the soul. It tells us that in reality we are rotten and we need Christ's righteousness - even after conversion. But he who turns away from the law (and it says "there's none righteous") even his prayer will be an abomination.

All we can do is accept the righteousness of Christ in place of our selfishness, but to experience Christ we need to give Him control of our nature, daily. That's the hard part. However, we are never to give Christ control of our nature to gain heaven because even that's egocentric. As long as we have Christ by faith we already have heaven.

As to "the how" to experience more agape in one's life read Romans 6:6-11:

For we know that our old self [our old life from Adam] was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin...

"In Christ" our old life literally already died. Hence the body of sin (our humanity) has already been done away with. In it's place Christ was resurrected with a glorified, sinless humanity. This humanity is "in Him" in the heavenly places (see Eph 2:6) and by faith we are literally perfect "in Him". That's justification by faith or that which saves.

10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count [reckon, consider] yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

In experiencing "less self-seeking" our job is not to try to be good. All we can do is allow God to take over our nature. Therefore we must give up on trying and let God do the doing and the willing.

You see God doesn't deal with our sins [plural]. He doesn't deal with specific sins, rather He deals with sin [singular]. He defeats our love of self - our bent to self - as long as we remain surrendered.

Our problem then is surrender. We don't advance in our experience if we don't maintain surrender. Hence Christian living is hard. It's hard to give God control of our wills, but unless we do this we can't mature.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Egads. Still talking about a game where the missing link is seen every time the teams hunch over?

Carry on..

[Woody]

Football does bring folks together in a huddle .

[Gerr]

My problem with your theology is your denial that there is a difference between the unborn and the born-again person. The Christ you preach is a totally powerless Christ. It is a total denial that the gospel is the POWER of God for salvation to everyone who believes. The unborn-again human condition you refer to you continue to attribute to believers whom God commanded Peter to not call, "common or unclean."

You cite Paul for your authority and yet completely ignore Rom 6 & 8! You ignore the reality of Jesus' command, "Go and sin no more." You ignore His testimony, "WHEN THE SON SETS YOU FREE YOU WILL BE FREE INDEED!" You deny the testimony of the Apostle John - "No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him." That "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in Him, and HE CANNOT KEEP ON SINNING BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil; WHOEVER DOES NOT PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

The testimony of the Apostle John is that there are people who love Him enough to keep His commandments and maintain faith in Him.

Either their testimony is true or not.

Holy Joe

[Robert]

You ignore the reality of Jesus' command, "Go and sin no more."

Jesus was dealing with folks who had personal, debilitating sin. To expand it to mean all sin, as in "perfection", shows a self-righteous attitude.

[Stan]

>>>>> shows that self-righteousness is still a major sin that is practiced in your life.

Robert

You are pushing the limits..

[Robert]

>>>>> shows that self-righteousness is still a major sin that is practiced in your life.

Robert

You are pushing the limits..

Okay...I backed up a bit.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You ignore the reality of Jesus' command, "Go and sin no more."

Jesus was dealing with folks who had personal, debilitating sin. To expand it to mean all sin, as in "perfection", shows a self-righteous attitude.

I have had loooooooooong discussions with you ad nauseam over the years. You can go over my responses and you will NEVER find a claim to sinless perfection. I have, however, consistently maintained that by God's grace and through the power of the indwelling Spirit, a believer can come to the point where WILLFUL/DELIBERATE/INTENTIONAL/HIGH-HANDED sinning can be a thing of the past. How can one be abiding in Christ and Christ and the Spirit dwelling within and like a dog keeps on going back to his vomit? or like a pig going back to the same muck? The Jesus I know is the Christ who can set slaves to sin free and be free indeed!

"Holy Joe"